Varys killed ...

[TheCrannogDweller]

Uh, yes. That's exactly what I'm suggesting. You know what other characters who eventually died due to things they discovered in a book? Jon Arryn and Ned. I'm not sure what's so far-fetched about this considering we've seen it before.

Jon Arryn died because his wife was paranoid and Ned died because he was stupidly merciful.

So, you're saying that Varys decided to kill Pycelle when and because he saw him read the tome? What was Kevan then - collateral damage?

Sorry, but you're talking about someone who carefully plans every step taking a spur of the moment decision. This is out of character for Varys, IMHO.

[Ygrain]

Jon Arryn died because his wife was paranoid and Ned died because he was stupidly merciful.

So, you're saying that Varys decided to kill Pycelle when and because he saw him read the tome? What was Kevan then - collateral damage?

Sorry, but you're talking about someone who carefully plans every step taking a spur of the moment decision. This is out of character for Varys, IMHO.

Somehow, I am getting the feeling that yuo are arguing an entirely different point than Dr. Pepper makes.

Would you claim that discovering the twincest had absolutely nothing to do with Ned and Jon Arryn getting killed? Or that Varys couldn't be keeping an eye on Pycelle for quite some time before he struck? And that he couldn't have different motives for killing Pycelle and Kevan, even though the killings took place at the same time?

[Consigliere]

Dr. P I'm certainly on board with your assessment regarding the book and it makes alot of sense. Assuming Pycelle examined the children's bodies, this book could be where he recorded his findings and defining features i.e. birthmark, scars, moles etc. Pycelle may have dug up this book in order to refresh his memory (it has been 17 years afterall). If true, then there would be written confirmation from a Grand Maester and that would be more than enough to refute Aegons claim. After reading your assessment, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the book has mysteriously vanished in TWoW.

[Dr. Pepper]

Jon Arryn died because his wife was paranoid and Ned died because he was stupidly merciful.

So, you're saying that Varys decided to kill Pycelle when and because he saw him read the tome? What was Kevan then - collateral damage?

Sorry, but you're talking about someone who carefully plans every step taking a spur of the moment decision. This is out of character for Varys, IMHO.

The point is, Jon Arryn was thought to have died because of what he found in that book. What Ned found in that book is what led him to the path of being merciful. He had no need for mercy if he hadn't discovered or confirmed, FROM THE BOOK, that Cersei's children were not Robert's children.

And I'm not at all suggesting that Varys suddenly decided at the spur of the moment to kill Pycelle. Though, to be honest, it does actually look like something that happened on the fly. I don't know why the ability to adapt when the need arises seems out of character for Varys when his and Illyrio's planning all seems to be about adapting when pieces move in ways they weren't expecting or hoping for.

And honestly, this was in Pycelle's quarters where he had tons of poisons and such. He could have just been easily poisoned early on if Varys wanted him out of the way for whatever reason. The fact that he was murdered violently suggests that it probably was a spur of the moment thing. Kevan received a note to visit Pycelle's quarters. It might have been actually sent by Pycelle who wanted to relay whatever info he found in the book and Pycelle was murdered just before Kevan got there. We don't really know.

[Light a wight tonight]

Jon Arryn died because his wife was paranoid and Ned died because he was stupidly merciful.

So, you're saying that Varys decided to kill Pycelle when and because he saw him read the tome? What was Kevan then - collateral damage?

Sorry, but you're talking about someone who carefully plans every step taking a spur of the moment decision. This is out of character for Varys, IMHO.

Jon Arryn died because Littlefinger wanted him dead. He (almost) never kills anyone himself; he has others do it.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't know, if Pycelle really had the goods on Varys why didn't he use this information against him? At the same time we have been told that Pycelles replacement might be a Tyrell and that Pycelle feared for his life because of the evidence that he presented against Margery. I kind of thought he was killed because he would help sell the Tyrell complicity in the murders in Cerseis mind.

This is true about Luwin but I have no idea if Pycelle delivered Aegon or had much contact with him. Jaimie does not mention Pycelle being present when Joffrey was born. Pycelle seemed more interested in politics and stuff like that more than the medical aspect of his job. When Tyrion was wounded another Maester was brought into treat him and other familes seem to bring their own Maesters to the capitol for their medical needs when they go there.

Pycelle treated both Ned and Robert when they were injured.

Pycelle had a bad moment with Tyrion so we can assume he may have not want anything to do with tyrion.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Somehow, I am getting the feeling that yuo are arguing an entirely different point than Dr. Pepper makes.

Would you claim that discovering the twincest had absolutely nothing to do with Ned and Jon Arryn getting killed? Or that Varys couldn't be keeping an eye on Pycelle for quite some time before he struck? And that he couldn't have different motives for killing Pycelle and Kevan, even though the killings took place at the same time?

Of course not - the twincest had a lot to do with why they were killed. But would Jon have died, if he hadn't planned to foster Robert out? Or Ned - if he hadn't told Cersei? Anyway, in all honesty, I was being glib with that statement. I do think that Varys was keeping an eye on all the key players in the capital - including Pycelle. And I guess you could be right that he might've had different motives for the murders - but I don't buy it. To me, it seems that the murders, and the chaos they should create, were synchronized with Aegon's advances in the Stormlands.

The fact that he was murdered violently suggests that it probably was a spur of the moment thing. Kevan received a note to visit Pycelle's quarters. It might have been actually sent by Pycelle who wanted to relay whatever info he found in the book and Pycelle was murdered just before Kevan got there. We don't really know.

No, the fact that he was killed violently is supposed to lead Cersei to believe that it was Tyrion who killed both of them. Pycelle's head was split open, right? I'm willing to bet that this was done with the same type of weapon that the Imp used during the battle of the Blackwater (battleaxe, if memory serves).

Also, the kid who summons Kevan to the rookery looks like one of Varys' birds.

Edit: Also, since we're drawing parallels between the twincest and Aegon's supposed birthmark, remember what happened when Stannis went public with the whole thing? Nothing. Joffrey remained king and Tommen took the throne after him. And their lineage is plain to see.

[total1402]

OP- Makes sense. It was highlighted that Pycelle personally handled Tywins burial and prepared the body; so I guess its his job.

[Dr. Pepper]

Of course not - the twincest had a lot to do with why they were killed. But would Jon have died, if he hadn't planned to foster Robert out? Or Ned - if he hadn't told Cersei? Anyway, in all honesty, I was being glib with that statement. I do think that Varys was keeping an eye on all the key players in the capital - including Pycelle. And I guess you could be right that he might've had different motives for the murders - but I don't buy it. To me, it seems that the murders, and the chaos they should create, were synchronized with Aegon's advances in the Stormlands.

I think you're missing the point. We all know why Jon Arryn died and we know who killed him. However, the first book dealt with Jon Arryn's death being linked to the Lannisters, specifically because he was looking into something that was dangerous. Yes, the twincest was the start of it, and then the fostering, and all of this started because Robert was mean to Cersei. We can go back and back and back and find answers for the start of this domino effect. The point is, it's this book that was initially highlighted as being something that eventually led to both Ned and Jon Arryn's deaths.

Pycelle is better served sowing chaos by remaining alive. He was doing a splendid job, what with testifying in in front of witnesses to having given Marg moon tea. His testimony at trial would have continued to be add to the chaos since Marg was insisting on a trial.

No, the fact that he was killed violently is supposed to lead Cersei to believe that it was Tyrion who killed both of them. Pycelle's head was split open, right? I'm willing to bet that this was done with the same type of weapon that the Imp used during the battle of the Blackwater (battleaxe, if memory serves).

Also, the kid who summons Kevan to the rookery looks like one of Varys' birds.

The battleax isn't connected to Tyrion in the same way the crossbow is. Why wouldn't the crossbow have been used for Pycelle when it's much easier to surprise someone with a bolt to the chest than an ax to the head. One can be done from a distance, the other requires getting close.

The kid who brings the message actually doesn't appear to have been one of the little birds. He's not noted as silent, which was a feature of the ones who where in Pycelle's quarters. The kid had also been waiting outside Maegor's Holdfast for quite some time before Kevan appeared. If it was a little bird, why not go through the passageways to get to bring a note to Kevan? Why not just kill him in his own quarters?

Edit: Also, since we're drawing parallels between the twincest and Aegon's supposed birthmark, remember what happened when Stannis went public with the whole thing? Nothing. Joffrey remained king and Tommen took the throne after him. And their lineage is plain to see.

Yeah, but there's no concern Stannis or his closest supporters had about his own parentage. Maybe not so true about fAegon and his closest supporters. How would fAegon react to the idea that he's not who he thought he was? How would Jon Con react? It's probably better to nip it in the bud before anyone has the opportunity to even question.

I do agree that nothing happened when Joff's parentage became known. No one cared. Would people care when it's a Targaryen? If they are true Targ supporters, would they be less likely to turn to fAegon if they are presented with evidence that it's just an imposter?

The basic point is, that book is probably important. If it's missing in TWOW, then we know it's something more than just a tome on the changing of the seasons and Pycelle died for more than just sowing further chaos.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Maybe not so true about fAegon and his closest supporters. How would fAegon react to the idea that he's not who he thought he was? How would Jon Con react? It's probably better to nip it in the bud before anyone has the opportunity to even question.

You make a compelling argument, but I'm still not sold. For one thing, regardless of the timing of YG's appearance, there would've always been people who would doubt him. Are you saying that Varys didn't plan a contingency for such an obvious issue? Like "Hey, kid, some people might say you're an impostor (we did hide you for 15 years), but they'll be full of shit." This would definitely take care of any identity problems Aegon might have.

And the doubt of the Realm isn't hard to predict either.

Basically, I'm saying that any proof that Pycelle might've claimed to have found wouldn't have been dangerous enough to Varys' plan to warrant the Spider killing him.

[jarl the climber]

Pycelle treated both Ned and Robert when they were injured.

Pycelle had a bad moment with Tyrion so we can assume he may have not want anything to do with tyrion.

Robert was the King and Ned did not have his own Maester with him. Elia on the other hand had always been in bad health and probaly did bring her own Maester/healers with her. As the Prince of Dragonstone Rhaeger would have his own personal Maester as well. Still it was Elia who was in poor health after the birth not Aegon at least as far as we know. Nor do we know if Pycelle looked at the body of the baby or not or had enough contact with the child before this happened to be able to identify it.

Having said all this I don't think Pycelle would have ever admitted the incest and therefore the illegitamcy of Cerseis kids. With Pycelle dead and Cersei falling in with the disgraced Maester Qyburn this might create a wedge between the Citadel and Cersei. Pycelle kind of guaranteed that his order would not support these charges. Varys went along with this lie for his own reasons but now he wants these charges to be proved against Cersei and her kids. Like some others have said he had a lot of reasons to want Pycelle dead. Its not impossible that he might have had information that could disprove Aegons claim but I'm not convinced that this was even a factor.

[Dr. Pepper]

You make a compelling argument, but I'm still not sold. For one thing, regardless of the timing of YG's appearance, there would've always been people who would doubt him. Are you saying that Varys didn't plan a contingency for such an obvious issue? Like "Hey, kid, some people might say you're an impostor (we did hide you for 15 years), but they'll be full of shit." This would definitely take care of any identity problems Aegon might have.

And the doubt of the Realm isn't hard to predict either.

Basically, I'm saying that any proof that Pycelle might've claimed to have found wouldn't have been dangerous enough to Varys' plan to warrant the Spider killing him.

I agree, Aegon has probably been warned that many will not believe he's the real deal. I think it would be different if people say "I saw your dead baby face so you're fake" than if the Grand Maester who likely delivered him came out with "I saw your mole when you were born and if you don't have one, you're fake". It might be enough for Aegon to question himself, or for Jon Con to open his eyes. I'm not saying that it would crush the fAegon cause, but that Varys figured it was just better to kill off that potential problem so that it never became a problem.

[RoamingRonin]

No one has yet explained why Pycelle didn't share his secret knowledge with the council before he was killed. Everyone at the last council meeting had heard of (f)Aegon landing before the council was called. Pycelle had enough time to gather his notes and present them beforehand. Pycelle doing research before his murder and after the council meeting hinges on the idea that he was just struck by the news that an Aegon pretender has appeared and we know that's not true.

[Mayura]

It makes perfect sense.

On the realm of little questions: Pycelle is well known for being a Lannister man, he is also swearing Joff, Tommen and Myrcella are rightful Baratheon heirs. So I am just wondering: why would anyone else than the Lannister loyalists give any weight to what Pycelle has to say about Aegon knowing that he betrayed the Targaryen to give way to the Lannisters? It goes without saying that he would be quick to say Aegon is a fake. It still doesn't change the fact that Varys is producing a Targ-colored boy who is coming back to Westeros with the Kingsguard Jon Connington.

So, don't mistake my opinion, I think the OP post is a brilliant explanation, I am just wondering why Varys would care that much about Pycelle's knowledge about Aegon. In the end, it would have been Pycelle's word against JonCon and Aegon's. But I understand Varys would want to get rid off any person who could add oil on the "Aegon isn't real" team.

But as other posters, I think Varys had many reasons to kill Pycelle. One of them might be he plans to assume Pycelle's identity on the small council (although I am not fond of the Varys is a Faceless Man theory but I'll guess we'll immediately know about that if we see "Pycelle" reappearing in TWOW) or simply to make it so it seems Kevan and Pycelle's deaths were Tyrell works. It has also been said in ASOS (and AFFC) that there is the Tyrell maester who is ready to move on to KL whenever it's needed. So with Pycelle and Kevan down, Mace Tyrell will likely assume the function of Hand and will hurry up to call maester Tyrell to KL, undoubtedly pushing Cersei to make a faux-pas and to accuse the Tyrells of the murders, hence deepening the fracture between Tyrells/Lannisters.

But anyway, last words: I agree and great find ;)

[jarl the climber]

The battleax isn't connected to Tyrion in the same way the crossbow is. Why wouldn't the crossbow have been used for Pycelle when it's much easier to surprise someone with a bolt to the chest than an ax to the head. One can be done from a distance, the other requires getting close.

Pycelle is 90 years old. Getting close to him does not present much of a danger. Kevan while being older was still hale and maybe capable of resisting a close up attack from Varys.

[jarl the climber]

Also going back to my theory that Elia had her own Maester it begs the question of what happened to him. The obvious answer would be that accompanied the child to Pentos and tutored him til he came of age and is with him now in Westeros. In other words Haldon was Elias Maester or physician and it was he who delivered Aegon and not Pycelle and this is part of the evidence that will prove Aegon is true.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I think it would be different if people say "I saw your dead baby face so you're fake" than if the Grand Maester who likely delivered him came out with "I saw your mole when you were born and if you don't have one, you're fake".

We have no proof that Pycelle delivered Aegon - nor that he ever examined him, in life or death. This argument is pure speculation. In fact, we have reasons to think the opposite - especially because there are other maesters in the capital and because Elia's life-long condition would've almost surely warranted bringing her own maester to the Red Keep.

[Nognir]

There's enough space for that theory to be true, but it's a long way from being explicitly confirmed by anything. From what I recall, Pycelle effectively took command of the reign when Cersei was imprisoned until Kevan Lannister came to act as Lord Regent. At that moment Pycelle took of the mask of an useless old man who rose so high by only being in cahoots with one of the strongest Houses. It could be possible that not even Varys knew of Pycelle's true competence until those events. I'm more inclined to believe that Varys took out both Pycelle and Kevan solely to cause discord and buy time for "Aegon", Jon Connington and the Golden Company to amass forces and alliances with rebel lords to take the throne. I believe that we'll only find out if Aegon is who he claims to be when Ser Barristan lays eyes upon him.

[Dr. Pepper]

No one has yet explained why Pycelle didn't share his secret knowledge with the council before he was killed. Everyone at the last council meeting had heard of (f)Aegon landing before the council was called. Pycelle had enough time to gather his notes and present them beforehand. Pycelle doing research before his murder and after the council meeting hinges on the idea that he was just struck by the news that an Aegon pretender has appeared and we know that's not true.

The book also has enough information to prove that the Baratheon kids aren't Baratheon's at all. Pycelle may have wanted to discuss with Kevan a way to present this information without the book being called for examination. Everyone knows the kids aren't who they say they are, but it's a mess if it's proven, especially with the upcoming trials going on.

Pycelle is 90 years old. Getting close to him does not present much of a danger. Kevan while being older was still hale and maybe capable of resisting a close up attack from Varys.

True enough. Still, why not use a crossbow anyway? If the purpose is to pin it all on Tyrion, a crossbow just seems like a better tool. It almost makes it look more like Pycelle was killed in the spur of the moment, and Kevan was done in Pycelle's quarters so that the Tyrion angle worked. Otherwise, it would make just as much sense to kill Pycelle in one place and Kevan in another. Two dead people with crossbows, even in separate areas of the castle, is enough for Cersei and co to believe Tyrion is still around.

Also going back to my theory that Elia had her own Maester it begs the question of what happened to him. The obvious answer would be that accompanied the child to Pentos and tutored him til he came of age and is with him now in Westeros. In other words Haldon was Elias Maester or physician and it was he who delivered Aegon and not Pycelle and this is part of the evidence that will prove Aegon is true.

Haldon wasn't a maester. He never earned his links. Also, why would Elia have her own maester. Futhermore, if she did have her own, why wouldn't the Grand Maester be present at the birth of a future king? Why would he not even be given leave to examine the babe? I doubt Aerys would have been cool with Elia having private access to a maester.

[Gnivil]

Indeed, which is why I'm curious.

I'd imagine that assuming he's a Blackfyre in the books, they'll just miss the Blackfyre part out, and have him just be Illyrio's son, etc (assuming that is all how it happens in the books ofc).