Could a Dothraki army actually conquer Westeros?

[ejhawman]

Balance of evidence/factors you cite suggest a khalasar isn't worth more, and is probably worth noticeably less, than an equal number of Westerosi. Dany probably didn't appreciate this. Viserys might have, and expected there to be enough Targ loyalists to make up the difference. Dany may not come to Westeros with all that many Dothraki, and they will make good cavalry if well used. But by themselves, no, they can't hang with the armies fielded in the Wo5K.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Aren't you all forgetting something?

IF this is a dothraki horde with Dany at it's head, then this will most likely mean Barristan Selmy is with her, you know, a more than capable commander. Everyone is just assuming westeros would've a brainless khalasar wondering about raiding and being raided to death.

A) If it would be Dany now, it wouldn't be a Dothraki khalasar. In most of those cases, it's about Drogo's.

B) Barristan alone wouldn't be enough. You'd need a bunch of officers, NCOs and a lot of drill for the grunts.

C) Dany's khalasar sports ~30 male adults, most of them either old and grey or a teenager.

[Chaircat Meow]

Why does everyone assume Jorah wanting to get in Dany's pants means he'll lie about the capabilities of the Dothraki? He didn't lie about Viserys, so he wasn't just telling her what she wanted to hear. He even said that the Dothraki shouldn't win in westeros, as they don't do sieges, but he thought Robert might be incautious enough to play into Drogo's hands if Ned/Stannis/Tywin didn't talk him out of it. A rather elaborate and thoroughly pointless falsehood if Jorah was lying.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Jorah isn't lying to Dany, at least not more than to himself.That's the point of the argument, Jorah tries to delude himself (and fails). His little speech is peppered with so many "ifs", particularly unlikely "ifs" at that, it isn't funny anymore. Discussing the chances of a monkey earning a Nobel prize during the next 1,000 years would sport a similar number of "ifs".

After he fell in love with Dany, he has even more motivation to delude himself while formerly he was only kissing Viserys' rear side.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

No. "Dothraki" is High Valyrian for "overrated."

[JamesTruwood]

The terrain would never really be in the Dothraki's favour, Targaryen head or not. Dorne would ally sure, let's say they do. The vale sits behind the bloodygate, the Riverlanders behind the rivers, the Lannisters behind their mountains, the North behind their allies and the Moat, The Ironislands by the sea, etc.. The Reach is really the only terrain the Dothraki would have an advantage, and attacking there, just guarentees your only ally is Dorne. Cornwlands maybe, but pillage there and lose your power base if you ever do take the throne. Short story shorter, the Dothraki will never have a terrain advantage. Add that to power houses like Gregor Clegane, Sandor Clegane, Bronze Yohn Royce, and commanders like Stannis Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, and Eddard Stark, and the dothraki are doomed (IF the Royal Fleet ever lets them cross, and as the Bravosi would never support an invasion of Westeros by Dothraki, due to their coin problems, the Royal Fleet wipes the floor with the opposing fleet and Ta-Da, no force worth the name gets across)

[The Mother of The Others]

Why just dismiss them? That takes the suspense out of the whole thing. Maybe if all the top brass were still in place, and had functional armies, then Westeros could defend itself. But even then, I'd have given the horse lords a chance. Now all things are possible, except foot soldiers moving from place to place without succumbing to frostbite. I don't know horses, so I don't know if that means advantage Dothraki in the winter, as their steeds are from more of a never-snows climate, right? So they might not fare any better. And they'd need lots of feed, which would compete with the riders being able to survive, given the sparse food situation. But still, just to keep things interesting, we should say that any outcome is possible now from a dothraki invasion.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

No

Dothraki people don't know how to invade a castles, they are afraid of the sea, they don't know how to make a siege, and they suck in fighting armored men.

Viserys would never conquered the seven kingdoms even with 100,000 dothraki

[Draco_Dracul]

No

Dothraki people don't know how to invade a castles, they are afraid of the sea, they don't know how to make a siege, and they suck in fighting armored men.

Viserys would never conquered the seven kingdoms even with 100,000 dothraki

And in truth he would have only gotten a tenth that number.

[Tywin Manderly]

No.

The Westerosi knights and men-at-arms would make short work of the Dothraki.

[The Mother of The Others]

Know

Why would they bother with castles? They'd be too busy owning everything.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Why just dismiss them? That takes the suspense out of the whole thing. Maybe if all the top brass were still in place, and had functional armies, then Westeros could defend itself. But even then, I'd have given the horse lords a chance. Now all things are possible, except foot soldiers moving from place to place without succumbing to frostbite. I don't know horses, so I don't know if that means advantage Dothraki in the winter, as their steeds are from more of a never-snows climate, right? So they might not fare any better. And they'd need lots of feed, which would compete with the riders being able to survive, given the sparse food situation. But still, just to keep things interesting, we should say that any outcome is possible now from a dothraki invasion.

Horses deal terribly with cold climate. Whether it's 1,000 dead horses to a dead soldier or 2,000 makes no matter, it's a really big disadvantage.

Know

Why would they bother with castles? They'd be too busy owning everything.

Castles own. In the literary sense. Either you take the castle, or the land and people belongs to the other guy. That's what castles are made for.

[geogus]

The books have a lot of important people (Illyrio, Viserys, Dany) under the impression that a Dothraki army could be key to conquering Westeros. But is it really?

Pros:

1) The Dothraki are fearsome warriors

2) They have horses

3) If Dany gains a khalasar, that could be thousands of soldiers on her side

Cons:

1) You need many ships to carry thousands of soldiers and horses across the Narrow Sea

2) They would freeze to death in the North

3) They would die of heat and dehydration in Dorne

4) Their horses would be clumsy and practically useless in the mountains of the Vale or the swamps of the Neck.

5) It would be impossible for them to attack the islands of Pyke.

6) They have little experience (if any) with fighting fully armored knights, or seiging a castle

The only place I see them as being particularly useful would be in standard warfare against infantry or cavalry. But they would need to either draw out the enemy from their protective castles (Storms Reach, Casterly Rock, Highgarden), or somehow penetrate the castle walls. They could harass the smallfolk and burn the fields, but they would probably starve themselves before the castles fell.

In short, they would only be useful if they were supplemented by experienced soldiers who have fought in Westeros (not the Unsullied) and know what strategies work. I think if Dany gained a khalasar and attacked Westeros, she would end up with many more casualties than victories. The dragons could help, but they were never part of the original plan.

They arent able to conquer Westeros

They would be very effective against peasant and archer troops, but I think they couldnt win knights if the numbers are even.

They wouldnt be able to siege the weakest castle.

Besides that, in Essos there are few "nations", most of places are city -estates.

I think this would confuse the dothraki , since they woudnt have a easy target to attack. ( a single city to siege as pentos, myr, etc) how would they keep contol and hold the place they conquer?

They would arrive, win a batlle, the remaning levies would retreat to a castle, they would burn a vliiage and croops and move. The levies would leave the castle reorganize and join forces with another host.

The dothraky ould slowy bleed.

Besides that Westeros is not continental-size grassland, like the dothraki sea, and they would find hard to feed 40K horses.

Slowly their horses would die and they would be weaker and weaker.

Dothaki can do some damage in westeors, and even win some open field battles, but they would be defeated, for sure

[geogus]

They have literally zero experience with siege craft, but could simply ravage the countryside for years and starve everyone into submission.

However I think Westeros could probably martial a greater combined military force than the Dothraki. If there were one massive battle I would say Westeros would win. But if 50000 screamers landed and attacked smaller groups of Westerosi one at a time, they could inflict a long string of defeats. However, I can't imagine they have the manpower or resources to actually subdue the entire 7 kingdoms, unless some powerful Lords decide to join them(unlikely)

An hypotetical Dotheki invasion would be the perfect "foreign enemy" who could unite the great houses to defend the realm.

If Robert were alive, a Dothraki invasion could reinforce his power ver the kingdom, the same way first Balons rebellion did

[The Mother of The Others]

Horses deal terribly with cold climate. Castles own. Either you take the castle, or the land and people belongs to the other guy.

1) Shhhhhhh!

2) What about Vs. Nomadic raiders, though? Most of the dominance castles enjoyed in europe was because they could choose when to race out from the castle and counterattack, right? And because any opponent would be trying to lay down their own claim to that land, which the castle could then sweep aside at its leisure. But the Dothraki aren't playing that game. They leave the land almost as soon as they arrive. But they leave it Fucked. ...castles could hoard the good stuff inside their walls. So that might hurt the horselords. But aren't the Dothraki a different equation? They can range further to get what they need, and also avoid the counter-raids from the castles when they want to. And in the meantime, they pillage the world until the smallfolk HATE the lords who're hiding safe in their castles and the whole loyalty system breaks down so the lords aren't the lords anymore, the horselords are the ones the smallfolk would have to deal with now and make their peace with through bribes. Because the real dominance on a daily basis would belong to the 'thraki.

[Ser_Cortnay_Penrose]

The most comments about the Dothraki prowess in battle, comes from people, who have never actually seen a khalasar. Usually not the kind of people I would take advice from.

The Dothraki fight mostly on flat ground covered with grass. Change this to a slopy forest area and everythings changed.

Now picture a combined Westerosi force of at least 100.000men (probably closer to 150k) with their known and chosen ground. They wouldn't stand a popsicle's chance in hell.

Just to chime in here- the thing is that the Westerosi wouldn't be choosing the ground, in all likelihood. All lot of people are basing their projections of an engagement on the idea that the Dothraki would be useless against a castle or in the woods or in the mountains, etc. But as the invading party with free range of a vast and rich countryside, and presumably as part of a larger invasion or uprising, would never fight in the woods or lay siege to a castle. As the fastest land force on the continent, they would never have to engage on unfavorable terrain, unless they were cornered or ambushed.

No one in the books (except for Drogo, who knows nothing of Westeros) seems to think it possible for a Khalasar to actually defeat all the armies of Westeros and win the throne single-handedly. If that's the question then the answer is obviously no. But the Varys/Illyrio plan and Robert's feared scenario involved a concurrent rebellion & sellsword invasion. In such a war, a Dothraki horde of 50-100K would be a formidable weapon, mostly for their superior mobility and archery, and the sheer terror such a force would stir among the Westerosi villagers.

I would really love to read such a chapter.

[E-Ro]

No one in the books (except for Drogo, who knows nothing of Westeros) seems to think it possible for a Khalasar to actually defeat all the armies of Westeros and win the throne single-handedly. If that's the question then the answer is obviously no. But the Varys/Illyrio plan and Robert's feared scenario involved a concurrent rebellion & sellsword invasion. In such a war, a Dothraki horde of 50-100K would be a formidable weapon, mostly for their superior mobility and archery, and the sheer terror such a force would stir among the Westerosi villagers.

Yeah, landing 50k dothraki in westeros would be hard enough. Landing 100k would simply be impossible. The amount of ships needed for all of that would be astounding. Ships, food and water.

This of course ignores the fact that drogo had one of the biggest khalasars and it was only 40k strong.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1) Shhhhhhh!

2) What about Vs. Nomadic raiders, though? Most of the dominance castles enjoyed in europe was because they could choose when to race out from the castle and counterattack, right? And because any opponent would be trying to lay down their own claim to that land, which the castle could then sweep aside at its leisure. But the Dothraki aren't playing that game. They leave the land almost as soon as they arrive. But they leave it Fucked. ...castles could hoard the good stuff inside their walls. So that might hurt the horselords. But aren't the Dothraki a different equation? They can range further to get what they need, and also avoid the counter-raids from the castles when they want to. And in the meantime, they pillage the world until the smallfolk HATE the lords who're hiding safe in their castles and the whole loyalty system breaks down so the lords aren't the lords anymore, the horselords are the ones the smallfolk would have to deal with now and make their peace with through bribes. Because the real dominance on a daily basis would belong to the 'thraki.

There's a couple of problems with that.

1) In the long run, horses lack the endurance to keep up with pure infantry forces. Rule of thumb is that the first three days the cavalry gains a head start, but by the end of the week the infantry has caught up and starts leaving the cavalry behind for good.

Granted, that hurts the cavalry portion of the Westerosi armies as much as the Dothraki...

2) A wide open plain around the castles is one thing. But they are built in strategic places. Fords, bridges, mountain passes, even dense forests will force the Dothraki into chokeholds where they need to give battle. Robb's problem with the only two viable crossings at the Twins or the Ruby ford is typical for Westerosi warfare.

3) The smallfolk may hate the Lords being safe in their strongholds, but they would HATE the Dothraki murpillaping them. That counts double for foreigners, thrice for heathens and quadruple for slavers.

Furthermore, the daily control would still fall to the castle garrison, unless the Dothraki leave several times their numbers there to siege. Several times as in 3-10 times and an equal fight at that. For months to years.

[The Mother of The Others]

another problem is the raven message system would enable coordinated troop movements from several castles to corral the horde.

but one less problem is the castle's garrison would not be in control. when the khalisar was en fuego the Westrosi be all "Shit!" and wouldn't choose to make an appearance on the field that day. And that day would be the one that mattered. Then, when other castles sent relief troops to end the khalisar's encampment there, they'd be forced off to other pastures, but the damage would be done locally, and then locally somewhere else, until it added up. And the triple and quadruple resentment of the Khalisar by smallfolk that you mentioned is like multiplying by zero, because when the horsers were staring a town down that town is going to comply no matter what their feelings about the new overlords. (There'd be exceptions who fought it out, but the stories would circulate about what happened to those exceptional towns, and in short oder the rest of the towns would learn to bow.) I agree that in most places on most days the local castle troops would be patrolling unopposed, but those would be the days that didn't matter quite so much.

Oh well, I've clearly devoted less of my life to studying middle ages warfare, so I'm willing to accept what you're saying as the conventional wisdom. I'm merely pointing out that the Westerosi characters may have been overconfident when we heard them parroting the same opinions about their superiority.

[Iona]

Could it happen? With the right commander and strategy, definitely possible.

Is it very likely? Not really.

It would require someone familiar with sieges, battle plans of Westeros, and logistics to keep the army supplied. Dothraki are mainly raiders who hit a city, plunder, and move on so they would be out of their element without a strong commander. It would also help if their leader was liked in Westeros to facilitate the transition of the conquered peoples.

*cough*Selmy*cough*

;)