Divine Retribution in ASOIAF

[Mithras]

I believe there is no absolute proof of the existence of any god in Westeros. Magic can exist independently of the gods. And no religion is more true than others. I think GRRM specifically writes the books this way. He leaves it to the subjects in Westeros as well as the readers to believe or not believe in gods.

Personally some events make me believe that there are gods and they all have their unique endgames. But i am not suggesting that these events can only explained by the existence of gods. I accept other explanations as well.

The first example i think of is Lysa Tully. She probably committed infidelity and then she murdered her husband for the sake of his lover. In the end, her lover became her husband and murdered her. I interpret this as an example of divine retribution (most probably acted by the seven).

The second example is of course Tywin. No need to restate the suffering he caused to the realm. His sins and wrongs that traumatized Tyrion cause him dying by the hands of the very son he disregarded. And after his death House Lannister started to collapse. This is another divine retribution of the seven.

And Jaime. People tend to forgive him for killing Aerys because of the wildfire plot but i dont think gods think that way. He did not have to kill Aerys. Even if Aerys must be killed, his blood should not be in Jaime's hand. An for god's sake he swore an oath to protect him. So he should have taken him to custody and kill the pyromancers. Instead he murdered his king, broke his vow. And he pushed innocent Bran out of the window. As a divine retribution, he lost his hand by which he committed these sins. I think the seven gave him a chance to redeem himself and he is on the right way. But will he make it to the end? We will see.

Right now these are the cases i can think of where the sinners "ironically" paid for their sins.

[falcotron]

Viserys demanded a crown he didn't deserve, and died of a golden crown.

But there are far more people who've died for a tragic flaw that wasn't a "sin" in any sense—Ned being the obvious example. And even more who died for no good reason at all. "There is no choice involved. The bad end unhappily, the good, unluckily. That is what tragedy means."

[Mithras]

Viserys wronged Dany most of her life and broke the most sacred laws of Vaes Dothrak so he is punished to death.

Of course not all the bad things happen because of someone sinned. On the contrary some bad things happen because someone did the right thing. I posted it in another thread. Doing the right thing is not easy. If not, most of the people would have done it. Going evil is always easy and not complicated. One must pay the price of doing the right thing and if the gods exist (which i believe) they will reward this good deed before the story ends. Ned did the right thing by not seizing/killing Cersei and her children. The price of this action turned out to be his head but i strongly believe that Cersei will lose all her chidlren and regret she did not take Ned's advice.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Quoting myself from aSoIaF's characters and Greek tragedy.

One of the basic structures in Ancient Greek philosophy (and tragedy) is the Hybris-Ate-Nemesis-Tisis (Yβρις - Aτις - Nεμεσις – Tισις) Hybris is when someone overestimate himself and driven by pride and egoism violates laws (both the men’s and divine) and behaves violently and insultingly to others, something that is beyond the mortal status and more like the Gods The Gods *cloud* his mind and as the result the person commits Ate which is the ultimate hybris, the person behaves even worse than before and offending the Gods even more. Ate is what causes the Nemesis, Gods’ vengeance and wrath and last comes the Tisis which is Gods’ ultimate punishment and the destruction of the man. Now in tragedy after Nemesis it isn’t the Tisis but Catharsis when the person left behind the past and is clean of all the mistakes and feelings.

Cat:

Hybris: Jon’s emotional abuse

Ate: It should've been you and arresting Tyrion

Nemesis: Robb's will and Ned’s arrest

Tisis: Red wedding, *death* of Rickon and Bran, and her losing her daughters.

[David Selig]

^That's disgusting nonsense.

[Sansa_Stark]

^That's disgusting nonsense.

You mean its the most intellectual post made about Catelyn Tully.

Ever.

[David Selig]

You mean its the most intellectual post made about Catelyn Tully.

Ever.

Thanks. I needed a big laugh today.

[Mithras]

I think this thread can be locked because the subject is already discussed inJon Queen's thread elegantly.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You mean its the most intellectual post made about Catelyn Tully.

Ever.

I don't mind. I take it as a compliment, when someone who defends a child abuser agree with me then that is an insult.

[David Selig]

I don't mind. I take it as a compliment, when someone who defends a child abuser agree with me then that is an insult.

Says the person who keeps defending Robert the child murdering rapist.

[Arya kiddin']

Quoting myself from aSoIaF's characters and Greek tragedy.

One of the basic structures in Ancient Greek philosophy (and tragedy) is the Hybris-Ate-Nemesis-Tisis (Yβρις - Aτις - Nεμεσις – Tισις) Hybris is when someone overestimate himself and driven by pride and egoism violates laws (both the men’s and divine) and behaves violently and insultingly to others, something that is beyond the mortal status and more like the Gods The Gods *cloud* his mind and as the result the person commits Ate which is the ultimate hybris, the person behaves even worse than before and offending the Gods even more. Ate is what causes the Nemesis, Gods’ vengeance and wrath and last comes the Tisis which is Gods’ ultimate punishment and the destruction of the man. Now in tragedy after Nemesis it isn’t the Tisis but Catharsis when the person left behind the past and is clean of all the mistakes and feelings.

Cat:

Hybris: Jon’s emotional abuse

Ate: It should've been you and arresting Tyrion

Nemesis: Robb's will and Ned’s arrest

Tisis: Red wedding, *death* of Rickon and Bran, and her losing her daughters.

Catelyn Hate Detected. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

This is actually quite disgusting. I can make that for any character in ASOIAF. Let's make one for Jon.

Jon:

Hybris : Going over to the wildlings

Ate: Allowing wildlings in

Nemesis : Watch getting divided

Tisis : Stab Stab Stab

So I can make one for any character, regardless of whether those actions were agreeable from their point of view or not, this is just cause-effect nothing else, no need to invoke God's ultimate punishment here.

^That's disgusting nonsense.

Absolutely Agree

You mean its the most intellectual post made about Catelyn Tully.

Ever.

:bs:

[Mithras]

So I can make one for any character, regardless of whether those actions were agreeable from their point of view or not, this is just cause-effect nothing else, no need to invoke God's ultimate punishment here.

This is what i was trying to say. Believers vs. nonbelievers. You view it as the natural course of events, causes and effects. Yet i recognise a pattern and attach it to a supernatural will. I dont say i am right and you are wrong. Because GRRM does not give absolute proofs and i doubt he will in the remaining books.

[David Selig]

Given that the biggest sinners seem to prosper and the most moral and pious people end up dead in terrible ways, seems like the gods in ASOIF are even more useless and cruel than in our world.

Tywin had 60 years of enjoying wealth, power and prosperity. LF is doing great. So are Varys and Roose. Jaime lost his hand but that's nothing compared through what numerous people way better than him went through. Euron and Victarion are fine. Etc, etc...

[Mithras]

Given that the biggest sinners seem to prosper and the most moral and pious people end up dead in terrible ways, seems like the gods in ASOIF are even more useless and cruel than in our world.

Tywin had 60 years of enjoying wealth, power and prosperity. LF is doing great. So are Varys and Roose. Jaime lost his hand but that's nothing compared through what numerous people way better than him went through. Euron and Victarion are fine. Etc, etc...

The story is not over yet. Have faith :bowdown:

[falcotron]

The story is not over yet. Have faith :bowdown:

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.

Of course some of the bad guys are going to die, and some of their deaths will be ironic justice.

And some of the good guys are going to die, and some of their deaths will be the result of a tragic flaw.

And many people are going to have completely meaningless deaths, too.

The bad end unhappily, the good, unluckily, but everyone dies. (Valar morghulis.) It's almost as predictable as this thread being hijacked by people who hate certain characters so much that they don't care about anything else in the story.

[Arya kiddin']

This is what i was trying to say. Believers vs. nonbelievers. You view it as the natural course of events, causes and effects. Yet i recognise a pattern and attach it to a supernatural will. I dont say i am right and you are wrong. Because GRRM does not give absolute proofs and i doubt he will in the remaining books.

Lamprey, I'm actually a monotheist in real life. In ASOIAF whether gods exist or not, I do not know, so I couldn't appropriately reply to the thread. It was only the outrageous amount of Catelyn hate that prompted me to reply, and I meant no offense to anyone, hoping none was caused. But I agree with all you've said. :D

Given that the biggest sinners seem to prosper and the most moral and pious people end up dead in terrible ways, seems like the gods in ASOIF are even more useless and cruel than in our world.

Tywin had 60 years of enjoying wealth, power and prosperity. LF is doing great. So are Varys and Roose. Jaime lost his hand but that's nothing compared through what numerous people way better than him went through. Euron and Victarion are fine. Etc, etc...

Yes, ser. Let's have a little more faith (even though you raise totaly valid points) :)

[Sansa_Stark]

Catelyn Hate Detected. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

This is actually quite disgusting. I can make that for any character in ASOIAF. Let's make one for Jon.

Jon:

Hybris : Going over to the wildlings

Ate: Allowing wildlings in

Nemesis : Watch getting divided

Tisis : Stab Stab Stab

So I can make one for any character, regardless of whether those actions were agreeable from their point of view or not, this is just cause-effect nothing else, no need to invoke God's ultimate punishment here.

Absolutely Agree

:bs:

arya kiddin?

[Arya kiddin']

arya kiddin?

No, I really am not. Please check my previous post on this thread as well.

[The Wolves]

I don't know what to call it when people get their just rewards in ASOIAF because sometimes the punishment is fitting or it's not enough of a punishment or the punishment does not fit the crime.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Jon:

Hybris : Going over to the wildlings

Ate: Allowing wildlings in

Nemesis : Watch getting divided

Tisis : Stab Stab Stab

you can easily make one for Jon but those reasons are :bs: