Daenerys's Blackest Sin, Will she Suffer for It?

[Alhazred]

In a word, Yes.

She continues to think of Mirri as a “betrayal.” Instead, she got 3 rings of power dragons. So, in the next two books, will Daenerys suffer an appropriate karmic retribution for Mirri's death?

Those dragons, and particularly Drogon, will also be the agents of "karmic retribution". She used black magic and human sacrifice, and the result were 3 wicked monsters. This is not going anywhere good. And if you were in any doubts about that, the devouring of the shepherd child by Drogon should resolve them.

I suspect Dany's are the "young" ... "false" ... and "dark" dragons of the prophesy. The "old" .. "true" and "light" dragons were born in the Summerhall fire 40 years ago.

[Aethermancer]

Why? Because in her darkest heart, she worries he may be right. She wants so desperately to do good that it's not even a "want," it's a compulsion. She HAS to act. If her biggest mistake so far is to error on the side of TRYING to make the world a better place, then I forgive that, and I wish more people would make that particular mistake. It's imminently preferable to just waiting for someone else to deal with it.

Is it preferable? I believe that is the point of the quote. She has good intentions, wonderful intentions, yet her 'compulsion to do good' is her acting and inflicting very real consequences on other people without their consent.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Is it preferable? I believe that is the point of the quote. She has good intentions, wonderful intentions, yet her 'compulsion to do good' is her acting and inflicting very real consequences on other people without their consent.

And her "compulsion to do good" is doing good AS SHE SEES IT. This is what I mean when I keep saying, repeatedly and apparently to the deaf and/or blind, that intentions are only part of what's going on here. If I do something horrible with good intentions -- intentions that not everyone could even objectively agree were good, I might add -- that does not in any way excuse, condone or lessen the horrible act I committed. This is especially crucial given that the only real perspective we have of Dany and her mindset is her own. This is not an accident.

[SeanF]

That Lewis quote is probably the best descriptor of why I find Dany and her work so disturbing that I've ever come across. People just do not get it, but luckily, the author does.

The other Lewis quote I love is that "to be truly and effectively wicked, a great villain must possess at least some virtues".

I don't know yet if Dany's fate in the story is to be a great villain. It's a possible fate, as is the opposite.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Is it preferable? I believe that is the point of the quote. She has good intentions, wonderful intentions, yet her 'compulsion to do good' is her acting and inflicting very real consequences on other people without their consent.

In which case, nobody should ever do anything, because the consequences of trying to change the world will always cause "consequences" for someone. You should just accept the evil in the world, because taking action will probably just make everything worse. Probably. Will you take the risk on a society clearly "not ready" for dramatic change? The sensible answer is always "no." Some try anyway, the cruel selfish fools.

Everyone who's ever affected a meaningful change in society has had a certain degree of reckless insanity. That's what's required to even question the status quo, let alone act against it.

And my ears are as keen as it's ever been. It is not their fault if what I'm listening to so attentively rings false and hallow.

And I will suffer no argument that the dragons are intrinsicly evil just because they do what large predators do. I cannot believe GRRM would have such scorn for his own creations that he'd introduce any element, man or beast, to the tale merely so he can condemn it's very nature. But that is a whole other argument for another time.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The other Lewis quote I love is that "to be truly and effectively wicked, a great villain must possess at least some virtues".

I don't know yet if Dany's fate in the story is to be a great villain. It's a possible fate, as is the opposite.

Yes, agreed.

[The Idiots Lantern]

The other Lewis quote I love is that "to be truly and effectively wicked, a great villain must possess at least some virtues".

A quote of my own. Not Lewis, since I am, after all, the Idiot.

"It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another." - Mal Reynolds.

You're always stepping on SOMEONE'S toes.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The other Lewis quote I love is that "to be truly and effectively wicked, a great villain must possess at least some virtues".

I don't know yet if Dany's fate in the story is to be a great villain. It's a possible fate, as is the opposite.

I believe Dany is going to become a villain, but not an outright villain like Roose, LF etc, more of a dark messiah, she will be ready to do bloody business to get things done.

She kind of already is in a way.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I believe Dany is going to become a villain, but not an outright villain like Roose, LF etc, more of a dark messiah, she will be ready to do bloody business to get things done.

So...like Arya. Or the Queen of Thorns. Or Sansa (eventually.) Or any other character who effectively does what has to be done to make stuff happen.

Fetch me a block.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

So...like Arya. Or the Queen of Thorns. Or Sansa (eventually.) Or any other character who effectively does what has to be done to make stuff happen.

Fetch me a block.

:dunno: Thats why i said she already is in a way, just that this time she won't try and fix things after destroying, "dragons plant no trees"

[The Idiots Lantern]

:dunno: Thats why i said she already is in a way, just that this time she won't try and fix things after destroying, "dragons plant no trees"

Or maybe she'll try not to break them in the first place. Aegon I planted no trees.

[jon stark I]

So...like Arya. Or the Queen of Thorns. Or Sansa (eventually.) Or any other character who effectively does what has to be done to make stuff happen.

Fetch me a block.

There is difference between Arya and Dany.Dany lives with rapists Arya kills rapists.Dany keeps betrayer exslaver jerks around her Arya kills betrayer deserter jerks around her.Dany loves the cheer of the crowd Arya doesn't give a f*ck about the crowd.Dany thinks she is messiah but never takes a good look at herself Arya knows who she is and never complains about it like a little kid.Arya and Dany are completely different characters.

[Anath]

Or maybe she'll try not to break them in the first place. Aegon I planted no trees.

She started breaking them as early as the first book. When she decided that invading Westeros was such a great idea that she didn't think of practicalities like financing her war. Then, she was shocked to find out that Dothraki were, after all, Dothraki, meaning - rapists and murderers. Sure, I'll give her her little bit of kindness but MMD wouldn't have needed it if Dany hadn't been so hellbent on reclaiming her "birthright".

I find it fascinating that Dany feels in the right avenging the family she's never met and raging about the Usurper's dogs, yet didn't think that to MMD, her "sun and stars" would be the Dothraki dog.

[The Idiots Lantern]

There is difference between Arya and Dany.Dany lives with rapists

They don't rape anymore, specifically because they live with her.

Arya kills rapists.

Arya kills.

Dany keeps betrayer exslaver jerks around her

They are ex-slavers specifically because they are around her.

Arya kills betrayer deserter jerks around her.

Arya kills.

Dany loves the cheer of the crowd

Except at the fighting pits.

Arya doesn't give a f*ck about the crowd.

Arya doesn't have to rule the crowd.

Dany thinks she is messiah

What's a messiah? Dany wouldn't know that word.

but never takes a good look at herself

So those whole chapters of introspection on her part are....what, exactly?

Arya knows who she is

"Who are you?"

"Noone."

Seems legit.

and never complains about it like a little kid.

Neither does Dany. She's unhappy where she is, but only those she trusts most know it. And she doesn't vent even to them.

Arya and Dany are completely different characters.

In that one is good and one is evil? Don't be so simplistic. Everything's connected.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

She started breaking them as early as the first book. When she decided that invading Westeros was such a great idea that she didn't think of practicalities like financing her war. Then, she was shocked to find out that Dothraki were, after all, Dothraki, meaning - rapists and murderers. Sure, I'll give her her little bit of kindness but MMD wouldn't have needed it if Dany hadn't been so hellbent on reclaiming her "birthright".

I find it fascinating that Dany feels in the right avenging the family she's never met and raging about the Usurper's dogs, yet didn't think that to MMD, her "sun and stars" would be the Dothraki dog.

I agree, that is one of Dany's main flaws, she believes in destroying and after that she sympathises and tries to "plant trees" her whole meereenese arc was for her to realize she has to choose one or the other.

And this is where Daario comes in, Daario's purpose is to remind her of her other side hence his choices of a RW etc.

At the end of ADWD Dany chooses Daario's character whiles eating the horse, so that means she has chosen to destroy rather than to plant.

[Minsc]

So...like Arya. Or the Queen of Thorns. Or Sansa (eventually.) Or any other character who effectively does what has to be done to make stuff happen.

Fetch me a block.

What massacres have Arya, QOT, or Sansa ordered?

[The Idiots Lantern]

She started breaking them as early as the first book. When she decided that invading Westeros was such a great idea

Actually, that was Viserys, and it's less a "great idea" and more like the one thing she's been raised to think

is her fate, the destiny of her family. And it wasn't for her sake that Drogo was going to invade, but that of his son. He was going to get the Iron Chair for Rheago, not Deanerys.

that she didn't think of practicalities like financing her war.

Fancy that, the barely educated bedslave with the fancy name didn't know anything about the logistics of financing an army...

Then, she was shocked to find out that Dothraki were, after all, Dothraki, meaning - rapists and murderers.

She's shocked

She knew what they were, but that's different from seeing their work with her own eyes. And she did all she could to alleviate the pain they were causing even when it would have been easier and better for EVERYONE if she'd just hidden in her tent and pretended like she didn't know what was going on.

Sure, I'll give her her little bit of kindness but MMD wouldn't have needed it if Dany hadn't been so hellbent on reclaiming her "birthright".

Again, the speech Drogo gave was that he was going to claim the throne FOR HIS SON. Rheago. Not Dany. She never did convince him that the Iron Chair was worth going after. It wasn't until Robert tried to have his wife killed that Drogo, angry, decided on the invasion.

I find it fascinating that Dany feels in the right avenging the family she's never met and raging about the Usurper's dogs, yet didn't think that to MMD, her "sun and stars" would be the Dothraki dog.

She trusted in the goodness of people, and believed Mirri would be grateful to have been rescued. She was wrong. That she continues to rescue people...and then trust those she's rescued....is a testement to the strength of that urge in her. That was one lesson Mirri failed to teach her. The others she learned well. Mirri was the one who taught her to hate.

[The Idiots Lantern]

What massacres have Arya, QOT, or Sansa ordered?

Arya's killed. Like...so much killing. For reasons.

QOT assassinated the hell out of Joffery.

Sansa's yet to blossom, but I bet she'll be wheeling and dealing like Littlefinger on steroids before it's all over, and Littlefinger's never hestiated to kill when it suited him.

And I hesitate to call anything Dany's done a "massacre," at least since Astapor. And what she did in Astapor was kind of the sum total of Mirri's lessons to her, so I give Mirri and her lessons in lying and letting people believe what they want to believe to ruthless effect the credit for that one.

It's war. People die in war.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

At the end of ADWD Dany chooses Daario's character whiles eating the horse, so that means she has chosen to destroy rather than to plant.

Yep. Playing everyone's mom didn't work, so now she's going hard in the other direction. We don't typically think of such people in positive terms. I'm actually surprised that so many people view her last chapter of ADWD as somehow positive or a step in the right direction. I think in hindsight it'll be seen as the start of her descent into antagonism. And in terms of being villainous, she's positively Shakespearean.

[Minsc]

Arya's killed. Like...so much killing. For reasons.

QOT assassinated the hell out of Joffery.

Sansa's yet to blossom, but I bet she'll be wheeling and dealing like Littlefinger on steroids before it's all over, and Littlefinger's never hestiated to kill when it suited him.

So you have no examples of them ordering massacres thus nothing like Dany.

And I hesitate to call anything Dany's done a "massacre," at least since Astapor. And what she did in Astapor was kind of the sum total of Mirri's lessons to her, so I give Mirri and her lessons in lying and letting people believe what they want to believe to ruthless effect the credit for that one.

Besides, the fact that Dany's actions towards Astapor were nothing like Mirri's. In how, Astapor didn't do anything towards Dany while in contrast Drogo and Dany were responsible for destroying, raping, enslaving, etc Mirri's people and home.

Moreover, Dany also order 163 to be killed while at Meereen. Again towards people who hadn't actually attacked her before she decided to go against them.