James Arryn Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It's funny that you mention the seeming contradiction with regards to Renly. It's the only time I can think of where Stannis defers to another about something factual. To his credit he will occasionally defer to others' judgment about what is the best thing to do, or best course to take, but he is always very clear on his view of the facts of what has actually happened. Black and white, this happened, this did not, etc. Always very sure of himself in that way...often stands in the face of popular opinion because he knows truth from fiction, and no other views need apply. Except when he's asked about Renly's death, when suddenly he hums an haws and ultimately says 'ask Mel, I was sleeping'. That need to bring Mel's testimony to his defense is very un-Stannis-like, and imo suggests he has a pretty strong view that he did in fact do it, does believe it was wrong, and wants to ignore it if possible. If he knew he was innocent, he would simply say 'I am no kinslayer.' If he thought he did it but felt it was the right thing to have done, he would siply say 'I made a hard choice'. But he's suddenly phlegmatic and qualified, and seeking outside support. That's GRRM telling us 3 things: he knows (to a degree) he knows it was wrong (also to a degree) and he has not yet given up his humanity enough to be past caring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueberry Stark Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I've always liked Stannis; it's kind of hard not to like the guy who's all about justice in a series full of torturers, rapists, murderers, liars, and all-around douchebags. However, I also wonder if he would make a good king. His inability to compromise would make it difficult for him to be a good king post-war. It's hard to imagine him pardoning anyone who fought against him, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 It's funny that you mention the seeming contradiction with regards to Renly. It's the only time I can think of where Stannis defers to another about something factual. To his credit he will occasionally defer to others' judgment about what is the best thing to do, or best course to take, but he is always very clear on his view of the facts of what has actually happened. Black and white, this happened, this did not, etc. Always very sure of himself in that way...often stands in the face of popular opinion because he knows truth from fiction, and no other views need apply. Except when he's asked about Renly's death, when suddenly he hums an haws and ultimately says 'ask Mel, I was sleeping'. That need to bring Mel's testimony to his defense is very un-Stannis-like, and imo suggests he has a pretty strong view that he did in fact do it, does believe it was wrong, and wants to ignore it if possible. If he knew he was innocent, he would simply say 'I am no kinslayer.' If he thought he did it but felt it was the right thing to have done, he would siply say 'I made a hard choice'. But he's suddenly phlegmatic and qualified, and seeking outside support. That's GRRM telling us 3 things: he knows (to a degree) he knows it was wrong (also to a degree) and he has not yet given up his humanity enough to be past caring. Do you think that BW has something to do with this? If what you say is true (and I'm leaning towards it) and he ended up winning BW and sitting the IT, does he own up to it and say 'I made the hard choice'? It seems a lot of times that the ends justifies the means is used to defend some of his actions, so would he own up the the means if the ends turned out the way he planned, or does he truly not want to own up to it no matter what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Breaker Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Not going to lie when i was first introduced to Stannis i didnt like him. he mocked cressen and was burning gods (an action which got to me because he was burning history, even if its fiction it annoys me) and then he killed Renly and i quite liked him. then Stannis arrives at the wall and im l start to think yeah okay maybe hes not so bad . then the interactions with him and Jon made me like him even more and by the end of DWD im a full on Stannis man. but im not sure if he will actually make a good king because hes not what you call a people person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Stannis is my favorite character, and the funniest person in the series.I think he'd keep the peace well as King but would make everyone miserable despite that. His lack of religion/association with a foreign religion, his lack of compassion and his complete inability to understand weakness are not good fits. Ideally I think he'd be Justiciar or Master of Ships.He wanted to close all the brothels, so I think he'd meddle too much in social issues and would be heavy handed about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Bloody Hells Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Why is everyone saying he would make a great king. His IS the king!To the OP: I too developed my man crush only part way into my re-read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Why is everyone saying he would make a great king. His IS the king!To the OP: I too developed my man crush only part way into my re-read. Which begs the question, how do you define who is king? Is it by blood? Is it by might? Is it who sits the throne? Regardless, there are openings for interpretations on who IS king... IMO, unless everyone is in agreement they are all claimants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Do you think that BW has something to do with this? If what you say is true (and I'm leaning towards it) and he ended up winning BW and sitting the IT, does he own up to it and say 'I made the hard choice'? It seems a lot of times that the ends justifies the means is used to defend some of his actions, so would he own up the the means if the ends turned out the way he planned, or does he truly not want to own up to it no matter what? I think this one crosses his lines, and so even though he is an ends-justifies-means guy (at least as it applies to himself) this will always be approached obliquely. Unless he splits with Mel and lives, in which case I can see him blaming her. I sometimes see Stannis as a lot like Tyrion; unpopular in the books, popular with the readers, how to kill a frog, morally speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Which begs the question, how do you define who is king? Is it by blood? Is it by might? Is it who sits the throne? Regardless, there are openings for interpretations on who IS king... IMO, unless everyone is in agreement they are all claimants It's like Varys says "Power resides where men believe it resides". Stannis is king according to the laws of succession in Westeros. Unfortunately for him though the majority of Westeros doesn't see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It's like Varys says "Power resides where men believe it resides". Stannis is king according to the laws of succession in Westeros. Assuming many things, for example, that Cersei didn't lie or make a mistake. Hair color is not necessarily a definitive argument, and Cersei is not necessarily a reliable witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenlyIsNotRight Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Well...hey, welcome to the club buddy! :cheers: :thumbsup: In all honesty though I really don't understand how anyone could actively hate Stannis after reading all 5 books and especially Theons TWoW sample chapter. It's one thing if he's not your taste, or you were big on Renly and you're still a little sour over that whole deal, but I mean, the guy put himself between Westeros and The Others. He's one of the only characters in the series who understands the real threat of The Others. He's fought against the Lannisters, Greyjoys and now he'll fight the Boltons and Freys, none of whom are exactly beloved as entities by the fanbase at large. I mean if you're a Stannis hater, I just feel like at a certain point you have to ask yourself if Stannis is really that bad compared to the Walder Freys and Gregor Cleganes of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenlyIsNotRight Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Assuming many things, for example, that Cersei didn't lie or make a mistake. Hair color is not necessarily a definitive argument, and Cersei is not necessarily a reliable witness. LuisDantas is that you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 LuisDantas is that you? No, E-Ro, it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenlyIsNotRight Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 No, E-Ro, it's not. Everything in the post you responded to was spelled correctly so the E-Ro comparison doesn't work. But seriously...come on brah...the whole Grand Sperm Jump Theory thing is just not even worth trying. Cersei and Jaime are both 100% sure Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are their children. Cersei remembers exactly where and when Joffrey was conceived, by Jaime. There is no chance in hell any of those kids are Robert Baratheons. Stannis is the rightful king by laws of succession. End of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 That need to bring Mel's testimony to his defense is very un-Stannis-like, and imo suggests he has a pretty strong view that he did in fact do it, does believe it was wrong, and wants to ignore it if possible. If he knew he was innocent, he would simply say 'I am no kinslayer.' If he thought he did it but felt it was the right thing to have done, he would siply say 'I made a hard choice'. But he's suddenly phlegmatic and qualified, and seeking outside support. That's GRRM telling us 3 things: he knows (to a degree) he knows it was wrong (also to a degree) and he has not yet given up his humanity enough to be past caring.I fully agree with this. Despite my love of Stannis, his sense of justice and abiding by the law; will eventually come home. We have seen plenty of him reflecting and him usually come to the correct conclusion, whether that be on his own or by good counsel. I think he will do the same, when it comes to Renly's death. In some form he is a Kinslayer. He, in the end will come to admit it, accept it and the price. Afterwards, he will have his epic, heroic death(I hope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Assuming many things, for example, that Cersei didn't lie or make a mistake. Hair color is not necessarily a definitive argument, and Cersei is not necessarily a reliable witness. Her confession to Ned seems legit to me. I don't believe she was unreliable or lying in that instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaAg Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Well...hey, welcome to the club buddy! :cheers: :thumbsup: In all honesty though I really don't understand how anyone could actively hate Stannis after reading all 5 books and especially Theons TWoW sample chapter. It's one thing if he's not your taste, or you were big on Renly and you're still a little sour over that whole deal, but I mean, the guy put himself between Westeros and The Others. He's one of the only characters in the series who understands the real threat of The Others. He's fought against the Lannisters, Greyjoys and now he'll fight the Boltons and Freys, none of whom are exactly beloved as entities by the fanbase at large. I mean if you're a Stannis hater, I just feel like at a certain point you have to ask yourself if Stannis is really that bad compared to the Walder Freys and Gregor Cleganes of the series. I agree with much of this. Hate is too strong and frankly i think many people's strong pronounced dislike has more to do with the blindly loyal Stannis fans than the reality of his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 I agree with much of this. Hate is too strong and frankly i think many people's strong pronounced dislike has more to do with the blindly loyal Stannis fans than the reality of his character. I never hated him, but I did, and still do, disagree w/ those that justify every act he has done, not everything he's done is good or honorable. It turned me off him because I didn't join the boards until after I finished the 5th book and Stannis never really stood out to me and the threads about him were borderline riduclous (still can be). I've paid much more attention this time around and can appreciate some of the intricacies that make the character. He's unusual and interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marya Stark Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I didn't like Stannis very much in the beginning but he is growing on me, especially in the chapters when he is not with Mel ( she is a baaad influence:P ).. Also after the "we hold the ground" quote in WoW and the whole frozen lake trap theory I find him so much cooler.. Sorry I can't get the spoiler thing to work! :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I never hated him, but I did, and still do, disagree w/ those that justify every act he has done, not everything he's done is good or honorable. It turned me off him because I didn't join the boards until after I finished the 5th book and Stannis never really stood out to me and the threads about him were borderline riduclous (still can be). I've paid much more attention this time around and can appreciate some of the intricacies that make the character. He's unusual and interesting. Similar. I liked him a lot more before I started reading some of the things people say about him, and like him more the less of his fans I read. But I find it ironic that one of his clear flaws is his selective application of standards. Or perhaps fitting is a better word. He has a lot going for him...mostly Davos and all he represents...but he's at least as self-righteous as he is righteous, and probably more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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