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Ser Not Appearing

Jon Dead/Resurrect = Night's Watch Vow Fulfilled?

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Firstly, apologies as I'm sure it has been discussed before but I find that so much is discussed here it becomes difficult to find a specific topic through search.

The question is:

It seems most assume (myself included) that Jon's potential death at the end of book 5 will not be fulfilled in one way or another... he will persist. There are many ways that this could happen but one possibility begs a question for which I have no answer.

If the way that Jon persists involves a "death" and resurrection via Melisandre (a kiss of life or equivalent action)... are his vows to defend the Night's Watch completed? If he does die, will his new life be that of an unencumbered-by-vows man... thus freeing him to leave the wall and have any sort of future, including a possible fulfillment of his (assumed) birthright as royalty without the necessity of forsaking vows?

This is not a question of whether or not such an event will happen. It is not an attempt at fan fiction or even a crackpot theory/prediction... the question centers around whether or not this would represent an accurate interpretation of the Night's Watch's vows. I feel that it would, as the vows say a watch will not end until death. Do you/others agree that a death/resurrection would end the vows .. or are his vows seen as not fulfilled by a death/resurrection event?

A link to a thread for me to read would suffice as well as an answer. Sorry again to clutter if this is not new.

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Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

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There is definitely the case to be made that Jon will get out of the Watch on this technicality. It's not something I really believe -- I'd rather Jon stay to reform the Watch or leave for better reasons -- but it's definitely a legitimate interpretation.

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There is definitely the case to be made that Jon will get out of the Watch on this technicality. It's not something I really believe -- I'd rather Jon stay to reform the Watch or leave for better reasons -- but it's definitely a legitimate interpretation.

Yes, it is a technicality, and indeed legitimate interpretation, but in all honesty, I can't compel myself to imagine Jon doing that... I actually see him uniting NW forces with wildings and North to beat the Others, taking the role of KitN, and possibly Rickon's regent, but at the very end, he will return to NW, and serve his time there...

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Ghost's Shadow,

I would've thought the first sentence indicates that I did try to search feature and found (as always) that results were too plentiful to make it an easy task... but if that wasn't clear: I did.

In my experience across message boards of varying type, I can often find a thread quickly if I was involved in the discussion... and for that reason if someone easily finds (or found) a relevant thread - that suffices instead of initiating a renewed discussion. It is what I looked for initially anyway.

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It is nonsense to assume that Jon's "death" would technically release him from his vows, or that he would see it that way.
Yes, the watch shall not end until his death. But what about the other parts of his vow? All the promises made there are tied to the person regardless of time.

" I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory."

NEVER!

" I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."

FOREVER!

"I shall live and die at my post"

If Jon doesn't become UnJon he's alive. He has to remain on his post.

"I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come. "

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Also, before it comes up, there can be very little doubt that Jon's wounds are fatal under "normal" circumstances. To be specific, the one in his belly. I am no expert, but I think it goe like this: wound-> bacteria from the bowels get into blood-circulation-system -> sepsis -> insufficient medical treatment -> death

However, in Bran's case it has been hinted that the connection with one's wolf makes the warg stronger.

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So by the same argument, if we take aeron to the wall to perform his ritual, every men could be released fromi it vows?

Im not buying that.

If people considered that drowning a real death, then sure.

Something tells me daggers in the back and blood and wounds plus death makes for a stronger case than intentionally drowning with the pre-expectation of returned life... but it would still amount to the same potentiality. If (if) people think someone died, they might view returned life as unencumbered.

They also, I think, would want Jon gone if this happens whereas they might not with others. Him having the relationship with Melisandre and Stanis and letting Wildlings settle the gift and "fetch me a block" and all those other things that made for tension... plus him forbidding jokes about the fire God... plus him then being resurrected... it's unique and adds to motivation for this interpretation that wouldn't be there with elective drownings.

I think that the response/rejection by others would guide Jon's decision to move on (the first Highlander comes to mind, no choice for him). I would generally agree that he probably wouldn't electively leave without that.

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Roose,

All night's to come is the only part of that which, for me, isn't definitively attributable to the until death part. It's a good point and makes it less clear in my mind. Thanks.

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I don't think that wall will make it through the end of the next book, I just can't see a threat to the realm or the world if the wall still stands, so in order for there to be a threat that wall must tumble. If it falls everyone will be released from their vow.


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I agree with AM and Mladen here.





Also, before it comes up, there can be very little doubt that Jon's wounds are fatal under "normal" circumstances. To be specific, the one in his belly. I am no expert, but I think it goe like this: wound-> bacteria from the bowels get into blood-circulation-system -> sepsis -> insufficient medical treatment -> death




Only if the stomach or intestines are damaged. Which is hard to achieve with a dagger, harder with a lot of cloth between dagger and skin and hardest of all against a standing and fighting guy.


Furthermore, there is already a half-dead from infection guy surviving - Victarion, who had his infection healed by a Red Priest. Cue Mel. Despite that possibility I'm in the "no serious wound achieved" camp.


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Firstly, apologies as I'm sure it has been discussed before but I find that so much is discussed here it becomes difficult to find a specific topic through search.

The question is:

It seems most assume (myself included) that Jon's potential death at the end of book 5 will not be fulfilled in one way or another... he will persist. There are many ways that this could happen but one possibility begs a question for which I have no answer.

If the way that Jon persists involves a "death" and resurrection via Melisandre (a kiss of life or equivalent action)... are his vows to defend the Night's Watch completed? If he does die, will his new life be that of an unencumbered-by-vows man... thus freeing him to leave the wall and have any sort of future, including a possible fulfillment of his (assumed) birthright as royalty without the necessity of forsaking vows?

This is not a question of whether or not such an event will happen. It is not an attempt at fan fiction or even a crackpot theory/prediction... the question centers around whether or not this would represent an accurate interpretation of the Night's Watch's vows. I feel that it would, as the vows say a watch will not end until death. Do you/others agree that a death/resurrection would end the vows .. or are his vows seen as not fulfilled by a death/resurrection event?

A link to a thread for me to read would suffice as well as an answer. Sorry again to clutter if this is not new.

I think it is something that will be debated in the books with no easy answer and a big question for Jon. Simply, there is no precedent that asks "what is death exactly for terms of the oath?" Some of his brothers will think he is no longer LC because he died. Some will think that he is a deserter if he interprets it as him having died and thus out of his oaths.

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I agree with AM and Mladen here.

Only if the stomach or intestines are damaged. Which is hard to achieve with a dagger, harder with a lot of cloth between dagger and skin and hardest of all against a standing and fighting guy.

Furthermore, there is already a half-dead from infection guy surviving - Victarion, who had his infection healed by a Red Priest. Cue Mel. Despite that possibility I'm in the "no serious wound achieved" camp.

I think the dagger went in all the way up to the hilt.

Btw, iirc, there was no description of Jon feeling pain. This would strike me odd (in a generally very odd chapter), I don't think it would be due to Jon's manliness....

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I think the dagger went in all the way up to the hilt.

Btw, iirc, there was no description of Jon feeling pain. This would strike me odd, I don't think it would be due to Jon's manliness....

That's implausible from a knife-fighting point of view. Putting a knife hilt-deep into a body requires pretty exceptional circumstances even if he'd be naked. Laying still on the floor for example and the attacker leaning on it with his full weight. A standing opponent will lean and twist away. His muscles will resist. Thick layers of wool, leather and linnen will have to be cut. And it is possible Jon wore chainmail or at least his gambeson.

A dagger is not a lightsaber to cut without effort. Nor is a dagger attack similar to a sword or sabre or spear, it lacks the strength, the weight and the impact. Most knife fights end after 50-60 wounds of exhaustion and blood loss because the manstopping qualities are really shit.

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That's implausible from a knife-fighting point of view. Putting a knife hilt-deep into a body requires pretty exceptional circumstances even if he'd be naked. Laying still on the floor for example and the attacker leaning on it with his full weight. A standing opponent will lean and twist away. His muscles will resist. Thick layers of wool, leather and linnen will have to be cut. And it is possible Jon wore chainmail or at least his gambeson.

A dagger is not a lightsaber to cut without effort. Nor is a dagger attack similar to a sword or sabre or spear, it lacks the strength, the weight and the impact. Most knife fights end after 50-60 wounds of exhaustion and blood loss because the manstopping qualities are really shit.

I understand, but was it not what was stated in the text? "When he took his hand a way, the dagger... [i don't have the book right now]"

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I understand, but was it not what was stated in the text? "When he took his hand a way, the dagger... [i don't have the book right now]"

Jon is clad for outside, at the Wall, during winter. All these layers of fabric are gonna trip the blade.

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Firstly, apologies as I'm sure it has been discussed before but I find that so much is discussed here it becomes difficult to find a specific topic through search.

The question is:

It seems most assume (myself included) that Jon's potential death at the end of book 5 will not be fulfilled in one way or another... he will persist. There are many ways that this could happen but one possibility begs a question for which I have no answer.

If the way that Jon persists involves a "death" and resurrection via Melisandre (a kiss of life or equivalent action)... are his vows to defend the Night's Watch completed? If he does die, will his new life be that of an unencumbered-by-vows man... thus freeing him to leave the wall and have any sort of future, including a possible fulfillment of his (assumed) birthright as royalty without the necessity of forsaking vows?

This is not a question of whether or not such an event will happen. It is not an attempt at fan fiction or even a crackpot theory/prediction... the question centers around whether or not this would represent an accurate interpretation of the Night's Watch's vows. I feel that it would, as the vows say a watch will not end until death. Do you/others agree that a death/resurrection would end the vows .. or are his vows seen as not fulfilled by a death/resurrection event?

A link to a thread for me to read would suffice as well as an answer. Sorry again to clutter if this is not new.

Well...

Getting out on a technicality? Its what a lot of people want to happen. I think plenty of people dearly wanted Jon to take Stannis offer and become Lord Stark. But its a bit like quietly wanting Rickon to be knocked off so that Jon can take the mantle with a clean conscience n no conflict. Just, a little too clean and convenient. I don't think the Nights Watch would just let him walk out.

From a legal perspective that would violate the spirit of the law. Death means permanently dead.

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I think the dagger went in all the way up to the hilt.

Btw, iirc, there was no description of Jon feeling pain. This would strike me odd (in a generally very odd chapter), I don't think it would be due to Jon's manliness....

"I don't have time to bleed"

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