Victarion10 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Yeah because trying to steal a dragon worked out so well for Quentyn Martell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion10 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 The other example was Jon, and imo, the wildlings letting him join them was just as stupid as the slavers were. In fact, at least the slavers actions can be blamed on greed. There is no reason why the wildlings wouldn't just kill Jon and be done with it. Because thats what they did with Mance Rayder, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Because thats what they did with Mance Rayder, right? Mance had lived among them for several months prior and had not been taken at swordpoint remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion10 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Mance had lived among them for several months prior and had not been taken at swordpoint remember? Jon Snow was also taken to Mance since he killed Halfhand, who is basically a legend and wanted to turn cloak. It wasn't a wildling decision, it was Mance Rayders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Mance had lived among them for several months prior and had not been taken at swordpoint remember?Mance wasn't the only deserter from the Night's Watch to the wildlings. Mance didn't fully trust Jon Snow in any case. And, Jon had spared Ygritte, who was a powerful advocate for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Mance wasn't the only deserter from the Night's Watch to the wildlings. Mance didn't fully trust Jon Snow in any case. And, Jon had spared Ygritte, who was a powerful advocate for him. But surely sending Jon as part of the raiding party was an incredibly stupid decision, no? Particularly after Jon had lied about the number of Night's Watch men who had been taken north by Mormont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 But surely sending Jon as part of the raiding party was an incredibly stupid decision, no? Particularly after Jon had lied about the number of Night's Watch men who had been taken north by Mormont. The Magnar was the guy who'd need first-hand information on Castle Black most. Jon offered that. A trade-off between benefits and risk. With the Magnar suspecting Jon of foul play and having the manpower to prevent him from escaping under all sensible assumptions, the risk seemed almost non-existant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherAnduin Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Mance could have forced Jon to draw a map and layout. There was no need to send Jon out. However this is nowhere near as stupid as the Good Masters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingofSothoryos Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I don't know why people think the Astapori didn't have any other guards or soldiers other than the Unsullied. The sack of the city was made possible by the dragons, not the lack of guards. That was the part the Slavers didn't foresee when they made their deal or at least thought "Hey, we got our own dragon, now. We don't have to worry about dragons burning our city!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robyn El Telram Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Mance could have forced Jon to draw a map and layout. There was no need to send Jon out. However this is nowhere near as stupid as the Good Masters. It doesn't have to do with knowing the layout of Castle Black, Mance himself knew that. It's about him knowing the weaknesses of the garrisson as well as how they were organized at that point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 She's not a slaver. She allowed any slave that wanted to sell themselves back into slavery do so, that doesn't mean she's a slaver. Whether it was when Drogo was taking slaves, or in Slavers Bay, she's always had a problem with slavery. Just because she didn't like slavery didn't mean she isn't a slaver. Ned may not like killing, but is he a killer? Yes he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion10 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Mance could have forced Jon to draw a map and layout. There was no need to send Jon out. However this is nowhere near as stupid as the Good Masters. Mance must have forgot that Jon was an artist too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 But surely sending Jon as part of the raiding party was an incredibly stupid decision, no? Particularly after Jon had lied about the number of Night's Watch men who had been taken north by Mormont.In my view, no, given the people he had watching Jon. Jon just got lucky when Bran's wolf attacked them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Just because she didn't like slavery didn't mean she isn't a slaver. Ned may not like killing, but is he a killer? Yes he is.We will have to disagree, its pretty obvious to me Dany is not a slaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Because they didn't have much to lose. They didn't want to risk the dragon they coveted coming to harm in the brawl, they had their honour to consider and they thought they were safe. If Dany had showed an ounce of good judgment and cool assessment of the situation, they would have been. It never occurred to them that she might destroy their city because that was sheer idiocy on her part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fightbringer Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 i actually agree that the slavers were observing guest right, and i think they may have also though that they wouldnt be worth very much to them since they dont know how to control them, only the valyrians really knew how to do that, and they did that with dragon horns, which aren't about anymore, so there isnt much point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 ASOAF is full of people acting stupidly. But, people do act stupidly in real life. Even intelligent people do so, when blinded by greed, passion, and fear. Exactly. If everyone acted with perfect foresight and always made astute decisions without any unintended repercussions the series would be much more boring and far less realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repbypop Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 The story of Astapor is really possible. First of all, nobody would've want to conquer Astapor, because this city is basically living on slavery, nothin else. There's no real economy, no taxes, no good infrastructure, and the city is pratically a ruin. So nobody would take the time to travel extra miles to a desert to conquer the city, not even the Dothrakis. So the slavers never anticipated that someone would caused them trouble. And they have a standing army enough to secure the stability in the city, they don't need a bigger army, what for ? They have no ennemy because they are just merchants, and everybody who come to city are looking to buy soldiers. And before Dany, nobody had problem with slavery. So in their mind, they never thought that someone who comes to buy slaves would have a problem with slavery. The city was known for that, so if someone travel to this city, it's for to buy slaves, nothing else, Astapor has nothing else to offer. So the slavers are not stupid, it's just they never anticipated Dany's way of thinking. If you think about it, there's no problem with writing, it was well thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diskoerekto Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 That is one of the most obvious plot holes in my opinion. The slavers are not that idiotic, in the end they are smart enough to trade and not go bankrupt and have a merchandise going on. Even if greed made them go blind and make them sell all unsullied at once (which I think they wouldn't have done in the first place), they could have at least made the transaction somewhere out of the city. That way, the city would be harder to conquer and all. I was one of the people that was fascinated by the whole Dracarys scene, but on second thought it really is a little cheap for the slave merchants behaving THAT idiotic. No matter (no conquerer would want the city, the buyer is a "naïve" teenager girl, nobody tried to use the unsullied against the slavers etc etc) what and all, you just do not sell all of the army in one go INSIDE the city walls. But again, if everybody was smart and doing rational thinking before actions, it would probably be too boring to read anyways, right? Ned wouldn't have accepted being the hand of the king and Viserys would be smart enough to not get himself killed etc etc. Practically nothing would happen and there wouldn't be any books. So even if I think that is a little cheap, I guess I am not reluctant to buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I don't know why people think the Astapori didn't have any other guards or soldiers other than the Unsullied. The sack of the city was made possible by the dragons, not the lack of guards. That was the part the Slavers didn't foresee when they made their deal or at least thought "Hey, we got our own dragon, now. We don't have to worry about dragons burning our city!" Hm, the dragons at this stage could do little more than burn a few surprised slavers. I'm pretty sure the 8000 supersoldiers suddendly fully loyal to Dany to a man did more to conquer Astapor then them. And the excuses I see simply don't ring well with me. Even if Dany was a little girl who knew little of the ways of war, even if the Astapori have little but their slaves (which is silly, there would be no economy, the city has other wealths) and even if they have always done it like this, it's still monumental stupid for the sake of the plot. Again, they basically take no precautions when selling all their army at once. I'm not asking them to run a backgroundcheck on Dany and put a Geas on their soldiers, but surely something as basic as doing the exchange outside the damn walls should have been friggin obvious? Regardless of greed, I don't think you become a successfull merchant by being an idiot. And idiocy is the only reason Dany got her free army. As for Quarth, again peole seem to assume these are honor-bound people who actually care about what the remnants of Dany's retinue would say. You don't become a merchant prince (especially in a city like that) by being timid and not reaching for opportinities, and three dragons is the king of all opportunities. It's possible that Xaro forbid anyone from doing anything since he wanted to get one by marrying her, but after the first few times she got refused it seems a bit odd to persist in that path. Dany has made it perfectly clear she'll never give them away. And for all the talk of preserving their reputation as merchants, it didn't stop them from sending an assassin after her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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