Minsc Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Also, is there even the concept of step-parents in Westeros? There probably is some form of it. However, it most surely doesn't involve the issue of bastard children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 step·moth·er n. The wife of one's father and not one's natural mother. So, you are arguing semantics? That is a fully modern definition that doesn't apply to the case in Westeros. Moreover, that is only one definition of the term. The traditional and strictest definition of a "stepfamily" is a married couple where one or both members of the couple have pre-existing children who live with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPaulGualtieri Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 There probably is some form of it. However, it most surely doesn't involve the issue of bastard children. That is a fully modern definition that doesn't apply to the case in Westeros. Moreover, that is only one definition of the term. Exactly, I can't see how a modern concept from our own world can be applied to Westeros. (I mean, yes, in practice it can, but it's impractical to do so if you're going to use it in the context of whether or not Catelyn was bad for Jon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Step-parents have some sort of custody over their spouse's children, some sort of authority. It's clear from all of Ned's thoughts and actions that Catelyn takes absolutely 0 part in raising Jon. There's a really good thread on this, but I don't know where it's at. Also, is there even the concept of step-parents in Westeros? The Waif talks of her stepmother, if you want to include Essos. Regardless, my choice of word to describe Cat's relationship to Jon was not meant as canon to ASOIAF but merely as a term of normal language, so if you could stop arguing about one word and getting back to the topic, that would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Regardless, my choice of word to describe Cat's relationship to Jon was not meant as canon to ASOIAF but merely as a term of normal language. Within ASOIAF canon, Cat doesn't have any parental relationship to Jon so her relationship to him as no impact on her status as a mother. Similar, to how we don't judge Ned a bad father because he was cold and distant to Theon, with the latter fearing Ned might execute him one day, as he isn't Theon's father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPaulGualtieri Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Yes, the Waif talks of her stepmother. Regardless, my choice of word to describe Cat's relationship to Jon was not meant as canon to ASOIAF but merely as a term of normal language, so if you could stop arguing about one word and getting back to the topic, that would be great. Ok, well I stand corrected then. My only argument is that you can't apply a wholly exclusive concept from our world (i.e., Step-parents) to Westeros. Even still, with all of the hoopla about Bastards, I don't know if it's a 1-to-1 application, like Minsc mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tongue Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Hands down worst: Cersei. She has killed around 16 of her and Robert's children.Best: Gilly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPaulGualtieri Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Hands down worst: Cersei. She has killed around 16 of her and Robert's children. The two babes Robert got on a serving wench and Barra & her moms, right? But who else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 You are still going to argue about a single word choice instead of the topic? Hands down worst: Cersei. She has killed around 16 of her and Robert's children.Best: Gilly. Well she aborted... it is inferred... one of her own kids with Robert. The other children were Robert's; she was not their mother. Still, yes, a crappy mother for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPaulGualtieri Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 You are still going to argue about a single word choice instead of the topic? Well, if that word is step-mother, then yes. Stepmother, at least in my view, connotes a certain amount of authority over her stepchildren. Catelyn and Ned didn't have this arrangement (Ned made every one of Jon's decisions) so it's a misapplication of the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 You are still going to argue about a single word choice instead of the topic? When the word choice is important to the topic? Yes! Simply, your argument was demeaning Catelyn's mothering skill for her failing to be something that she isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tongue Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 The two babes Robert got on a serving wench and Barra & her moms, right? But who else? "... "Will the king and I have children?" she asked. "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPaulGualtieri Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 "... "Will the king and I have children?" she asked."Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you." Yeah but that doesn't mean she had all of Robert's bastards clipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tongue Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 You are still going to argue about a single word choice instead of the topic.Gilly for what she's gone through to preserve the life of her son, and for taking mance's son for safekeeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPaulGualtieri Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Gilly for what she's gone through to preserve the life of her son, and for taking mance's son for safekeeping. I agree. Gilly is a great mother. She's one of the best and most selfless. (Though Jon didn't give her much a choice in the matter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 To be fair, Talisa was pretty important as she had a young actor willing to show off her cute butt. Meanwhile, I am guessing Michelle wasn't willing to do naked scenes.And for things like that, we have to see the monster that was Robb and Cat's storyline in season 3, despite Michelle clearly being the superior actress and the character that had the point of view in the books. Not even Robb's bannermen were made justice - Just random people dying at the Red Wedding for the sake of sex scenes the entire season. One wonders that the screenwriters and showrunners are thinking when they make the Meereenese Knot girl as a regular. Back on-topic: The term "stepmother" does apply to Westeros, in a sense of "Trueborn sons", as in, for example, Ramsay after legitimization and Walda Frey are step-son and step-mother. Littlefinger's the stepfather of Robert Arryn. However, there's the bastardy issue in Westeros, which means that all bastards are NOT considered stepsons since they are not Trueborn sons. As in, Alayne Stone (If she existed) wouldn't be the stepdaughter to Lysa Arryn and shouldn't be expected to be treated as family. Jon Snow has NO relation to Catelyn at all - He's not a part of her family. Why should her treatment of him affect her rank as a mother? If anything, even so, Jon had a fairly good life in Winterfell, as she didn't isolated her kids from him, and avoided contact with him at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Let's review mothers in the series: Lysa (dead) - bad mother Cat (UnCat) - had made horrible mistakes, could be redeemed as a mother and probably will be as a plot point Cersei - bad mother Gilly - good mother, even to the kid who isn't hers Dalla (dead) - N/A Sam's mother (unseen) - didn't stand up for him, I can't consider her "good" Dany (stillborn boy) - certainly had glorious plans for her son, doesn't make her a good mother (plus she did imprison her dragons), could be redeemed Elia (dead) - seemed a good mother, not enough info Ned's mother (unknown) - not enough info Jon's mother (unknown and I know you hate that I say that, but he doesn't know and she is likely dead anyway) - not enough info Jon and Meera's mother (unknown) - not enough info Hodor's mother (unknown) - not enough info Joanna Lannister (dead) - not enough info Lady Olenna - sharp yes, a good mother, the jury is out Ellaria - not enough info about her relationship with her daughters Tanda Stokeworth - now this might be a good mother, considering everything (poor lady) Bronn's mom - beat him Shae's mom - not good for sure So maybe there needs to be a separate topic about mothers in general, cause it sure seems like a lot of them are either missing or apathetic or freakin crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 When the word choice is important to the topic? Yes! Simply, your argument was demeaning Catelyn's mothering skill for her failing to be something that she isn't. I demeaned Catelyn's mothering skills far beyond naming her, in the modern vernacular, as a stepmother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 step·moth·er n.The wife of one's father and not one's natural mother. So, you are arguing semantics?If I were to father a child outside marriage, that wouldn't make my wife that child's step- mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherAnduin Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Why is Elia being called a good mother? Wasn't Rhaenys running around without any guardian during the sack? Which good mother would leave her toddler unattended during such a time? I wouldn't call Gilly a good mother yet. She is new and there isn't enough to go on. The way cersei talked about Joffrey, I am sure Cersei treated Joffrey just like Gilly treats her son and adoptive son. Cersei didn't turn out so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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