Was Tywin great?

[Jory Cassel]

I mean this just isn't true. Tywin himself says that he hadn't expected his men to kill Elia and should have instructed them otherwise. He also thought the kids were killed too brutally which is why he had them wrapped in red cloth when he presented them. Also it had little to do with his daughter not being queen and a lot to do with him wanting to prove his loyalty as he sat out the entire war.

I have a bridge to sell you.

eta: "Tywin himself says that he (...) should have instructed them otherwise" - this is simply false.

[dmo862000]

Because Tywin never lies or isn't hypocritical right?

No, the kids did not have to die that way, and Elia did not have to suffer.

The text provides two examples.

Oberyn's story where he accuses Tywin of being mad and making it as brutal as possible.

Or

Tywin's story where he just forgot about Elia and didn't know how cruel his men were.

Which story you believe is up to you.

But I choose to believe Tywin did it on purpose. It goes against his typical "competence" to do otherwise.

I forget who Tywin was talking to about this but if I remember correctly he had no reason to lie. Tywin's typical 'competence' is to be only as tough/cruel as he needs to. He had no reason to kill Elia as it would only enrage Dorne against the Lannisters, something I highly doubt Tywin would purposefully provoke. Oberyn wasn't there and its his sister, I tend to think his view may be skewed.

[Lebron James]

I forget who Tywin was talking to about this but if I remember correctly he had no reason to lie. Tywin's typical 'competence' is to be only as tough/cruel as he needs to. He had no reason to kill Elia as it would only enrage Dorne against the Lannisters, something I highly doubt Tywin would purposefully provoke. Oberyn wasn't there and its his sister, I tend to think his view may be skewed.

He was talking to Tyrion. And we all know that he would never lie to Tyrion.

[Winter's Knight]

Tywin certainly ordered that the children be killed, he was upset at the brutality.

If Amory Lorch had the sense the gods gave to a turnip, he'd have used sweet words and a soft,silk pillow.

(quoted from memory)

[Sansa_Stark]

Tywin certainly ordered that the children be killed, he was upset at the brutality.

If Amory Lorch had the sense the gods gave to a turnip, he'd have used sweet words and a soft,silk pillow.

(quoted from memory)

This is coming from the same man who set the Riverlands ablaze, order the rape of Tysha by like 20 men, ordered the sack of King's Landing, exterminated the Reynes and Tarbecks completely, wanted to send I believe a member of house Tarbeck or Reyne(possibly a lord) in three pieces even if they killed 3 Lannisters, complied with the Red Wedding etc.

My point was that he was full of s***.

The part where he says something like "Even you cannot believe I ordered that rape."

should give it away.

TYWIN HAS NO PROBLEMS ORDERING BRUTAL RAPE

[the Scorpion Knight]

I agree. There's no reason to believe Tywin was hated by his bannermen or his own smallfolk, as far as I remember.

I'm not saying he wasn't borderline evil with the sacking, raping etc. But that's another matter.

It's most likely the westerlander lords coined the term Goldshitter

He was great in a Ivan the terrible, Edward Longshanks, Octavian Augustus, Saladin sort of way. The example that skill and morals are two very different things.

Believe me when I say all four would be disgusted by Tywin

He was cold and ruthless, but nonetheless great. Just like Hitler, or Djingis Khan.

To continue on your comment to The Dragon has three heads.

He led one of the largest families in Westeros in addition to being one of the men who shaped the world in which he lived. He was the hand of the king twice, a lord and a commander, and he brought his house from near ruin to being one of the greatest in Westeros.. I mean come on, he was a brilliant tactician too, it's hard to deny that Tywin was a great man..

Sun Tzu would give Tywin an F.

PREwar he turned EVERY ALLY IN TO an enemy (AERYSII and Dorans mother)

Since Westeros is the analogue of mediaeval England, I try to define great in historical terms. Tywin was one of the Lords Paramount. Moreover, first as Hand and later as Paterfamilias of the Lannister-Baratheon royal family, he was effectively the ruler of Westeros. In my view, a great lord or ruler wields power justly, keeps peace, has the respect (not fear) of the people, his family, other peers and rulers, and leaves heirs who will carry on his work after he is gone. In RL, very few ever achieved it, especially when it comes to stability and continuity.

As The Wolves wrote above:

"His legacy is built on mass murders, child murders, monsters that he let lose on innocent people, a woman he sexually humiliated because his father showered her in gifts Tywin thought was above her, children who are hated through the whole country". I would add to that treachery and bribery that transgressed one of the most sacred customs of Westeros, i.e., the Red Wedding. Tywin ruled by intimidation and ruthlessness. From most Westerosi nobility, he gained not respect but fear and loathing, including from his own children. He left neither peace nor prosperity, but a putrid corpse that repelled everyone within olfactory distance. Not only that, his cackhandedness with his own offspring seems to be leading to the undoing of his whole family unto the next generation.

No, I would never say he was great.

I read somewhere: "a good person is as dangerous in the grave as he is alive"

It seems tywin death was a Starting signal for his enemys

[TalalOfDorne]

Tywin was great...at stacking corpses.

He built his house on death and sadistic cruelty, and continued with that same pattern (Sometimes on his children) to maintain his "legacy", and because his pride blinded him to other more important things, his actions end up biting back the Lannisters. He may have been a good politician (Though thats about the only thing he gets "good" in, besides stacking corpses lol.), but he still made a number of boneheaded mistakes to feed his overinflated ego. I honestly see why anyone would think Cersei is "Tywin with teats", they arent that different.

ETA: Mladen-Zunni 35-25

[Erkan12]

Of course not. He was just cheating for win.

[servant of the drowned god]

Tywin was great in every meaning of the term(except as a father). In a medieval setting cruelty is a necessity.

[dmo862000]

Ordering the extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks was brutal but justifiable in those times. If the Starks had wiped out the Boltons when they had risen up a few centuries back they would probably still be wardens of the North. The RW was also brutal but it ended the war for the most part. Burning the Riverlands is harsh too but its war and not to mention some northerners were doing unseemly things there too. The whole Tyrion/Tysha thing is the only one I cant rationalize but to me it seems that Tywin would not have wanted Elia raped and murdered nor the babies killed so brutally. It doesnt really fit with his calculated decisions.

[JLE]

I would be surprised if the remaining living Lannisters can inspire even so much as half the actual loyalty, even while alive, as the Starks do even when most of them are believed to be dead. Bolton is not loved in the north *even when most of the North does not yet know how heavily he was involved in the Red Wedding* - the Umbers and the Mountain Clans are pretty much out for Bolton blood, the Manderlys are looking to betray him, and the only people Roose can really count on are the Freys. And that's while the only "officially known" Bolton / Frey connection is Roose's marriage to Fat Walda, which took place while both Roose and the Freys were still thought to be loyal, and Roose is not suspected of anything more than picking up the pieces after the Young Wolf's fall.

(Why do I mention the Umbers as Stark loyalists, when a faction, under Hother, is apparently allied with Bolton? Because of the way they split - Mors Umber, the Stark loyalist, got the youngsters: the people who will be the next generation. In three to five years' time, his lot of the Umbers will be grown men, all fit to fight, under a canny leader. Hother Umber, the one who "defected" to Bolton, got the greybeards - the ones who are already on the borderline of being too old to fight properly, and will only get older and more useless. In three to five years' time, they will be dead. The Umber brothers had sent so many men to the war that not enough were left to get the crops in, and so some of their harvest was lost: and, pragmatically, they are feeding their "future" on their own lands from their own harvest, while their "past" - the people who are already on the point of being nothing but an encumbrance - have gotten right into their enemy's stronghold and are eating their enemy's stores... Which is one way to contribute to a war effort. The reason Mors and his young men were able to dig pit traps so near Winterfell's entrance is that Hother and the greybeards, on the inside, are cooperating with him. Hother is as much a Stark loyalist as Mors and Greatjon. If the Umbers were genuinely split, then the pro-Stark and pro-Bolton factions would not have split "old vs. young", pitting grandsons against their grandfathers, but would have had some entire families on one side, and other entire families on the other. Instead, the oldies are investing in the future of their descendants by choosing not to be a drain on the Umbers' own resources, but on their enemies' resources...)

It's definitely hinted that some of the westerland lords might well have ended up defecting to Robb - his marriage to Jeyne Westerling might have actually proved a help in that regard if he had been able to bring Tywin to battle and beat him. If Edmure had let Tywin through to pursue Robb, and then followed up behind him, Tywin's forces would have been caught between Robb and Edmure, who now outnumbered him, *and* too far away to prevent Stannis winning at the Blackwater. And without the terror of Tywin, there *will* be westerland rebellions. Kevan, who at least was respected and not feared, might have been able to hold them off, but without even him, House Lannister will crumble. What do they have left after all? Lancel has joined the faith. Daven is also about to marry one of the hated Freys. Jaime is feared and reviled as the Kingslayer, Cersei is obviously batshit mad and is on trial for her life, and is already disgraced even if she wins her trial. And Tyrion is on the run on the other side of the world, and the rest of the family (or the westerlands) would never follow him anyway.

Meanwhile the Starks are still so much respected that the North would unite behind even a baby or a bastard of that house if they could find one...

And that's the difference between Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark. Tywin could rule by terror while he was alive, but destroyed his family's legacy so thoroughly that in the end, it was *only* the fear of Tywin that kept people loyal, and it would fall apart the moment he died, even if Jaime still had his hand, even if Kevan were still alive and Tyrion still present, all they could do would be to slow the fall. Ned was so much loved and respected that all but one of his bannermen would follow literally ANYONE of his blood, even a tangentially-related bastard. Even Roose Bolton was loyal while Ned lived (and arguably while he thought Robb still had a chance of success in the war.)

[redtree]

He is basically the living version of Stoneheart,where she only cares about vengeance Tywin only cares about advancing his family regardless their feelings about it (that explains the unhappy children). He's ok with killing baby Aegon,Rhaenys and little lord Darry

And i don't think he's that good of politician, administrator is more like it. He said fear rules,but he doesn't seem to care about his reputation which is as good as shit. Olenna is a good politician,she understands that image is very important

[BearIslander]

What battles did Tywin win so anyone should have feared him so much? Exterminated two minor houses? Sacked a city he did not even have to storm? Did not manage to destroy Bolton completely while having thrice his numbers?

It was Tywin who was clearly AFRAID to meet Robb Stark in battle, not the other way around. The same Robb Stark who was 15-year boy. Haha for the great general Tywin.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Ordering the extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks was brutal but justifiable in those times. If the Starks had wiped out the Boltons when they had risen up a few centuries back they would probably still be wardens of the North. The RW was also brutal but it ended the war for the most part. Burning the Riverlands is harsh too but its war and not to mention some northerners were doing unseemly things there too. The whole Tyrion/Tysha thing is the only one I cant rationalize but to me it seems that Tywin would not have wanted Elia raped and murdered nor the babies killed so brutally. It doesnt really fit with his calculated decisions.

1.) whe don't know the WHY of the tarbeks anf the reynes rebelled

2.) The RW didn't end the war. It eliminated the the one party that didn't want your throne.

3.)Tywin started it . the other opotion were TALKING to the King about this whole thing.

[Facebookless Man]

He was great in a Ivan the terrible, Edward Longshanks, Octavian Augustus, Saladin sort of way. The example that skill and morals are two very different things.

What's with putting Saladin in that list? Even his worst enemies respected him for his honour and fairness.

[BearIslander]

whe don't know the WHY of the tarbeks anf the reynes rebelled

I'm trying to imagine a WHY under the pretext of which a noble House could be legally and morally exterminated down to the last woman and child.

Well, there are Targaryens and Robert with his "Rhaegar kidnapped/raped Lyanna" obsession. But neither Jon Arryn nor Ned Stark wanted Targs to be exterminated to a last child. It's Tywin's style almost exclusively, to avenge his wrongs by mass murder.

[BearIslander]

BTW, Ivan the Terrible mentioned here is a totally wrong title. He should have been Ivan the Formidable. His nickname was earned by him in his youth for valor and skill in battles against the remnants of Golden Horde, rather than for his later (and much exaggerated) atrocities.

[Gurkhal]

It's definitely hinted that some of the westerland lords might well have ended up defecting to Robb - his marriage to Jeyne Westerling might have actually proved a help in that regard if he had been able to bring Tywin to battle and beat him. If Edmure had let Tywin through to pursue Robb, and then followed up behind him, Tywin's forces would have been caught between Robb and Edmure, who now outnumbered him, *and* too far away to prevent Stannis winning at the Blackwater. And without the terror of Tywin, there *will* be westerland rebellions. Kevan, who at least was respected and not feared, might have been able to hold them off, but without even him, House Lannister will crumble. What do they have left after all? Lancel has joined the faith. Daven is also about to marry one of the hated Freys. Jaime is feared and reviled as the Kingslayer, Cersei is obviously batshit mad and is on trial for her life, and is already disgraced even if she wins her trial. And Tyrion is on the run on the other side of the world, and the rest of the family (or the westerlands) would never follow him anyway.

Where and how is this hinted in the books? Because I can't recall any such hints.

What battles did Tywin win so anyone should have feared him so much? Exterminated two minor houses? Sacked a city he did not even have to storm? Did not manage to destroy Bolton completely while having thrice his numbers?

It was Tywin who was clearly AFRAID to meet Robb Stark in battle, not the other way around. The same Robb Stark who was 15-year boy. Haha for the great general Tywin.

He destroyed the two greatest Houses after the Lannisters themselves in the Westerlands, while he was a teen and according to reports faced off against a seasoned enemy leadership.

Tywin did storm King's Landing and there were a shitload of troops defending it (capitals are often in such situations during wars) but Pycelle got Aerys to open the gates for him to make the storming much easier.

1.) whe don't know the WHY of the tarbeks anf the reynes rebelled

2.) The RW didn't end the war. It eliminated the the one party that didn't want your throne.

3.)Tywin started it . the other opotion were TALKING to the King about this whole thing.

1. As I understood it they thought the Lannisters were weak and decided to make a grab for power over the West.

2. It did eliminate the one most serious opposition, Stannis was down to a few 1000s after the Blackwater and the Ironborn were already fighting the Northmen or gearing up for a potential civil war at that time.

3. If I recall Tywin did send a letter, demanding his son be released. And do you know what the king said? He told Eddard to let Tyrion go and make peace with the Lannisters.

[Minsc]

3. If I recall Tywin did send a letter, demanding his son be released. And do you know what the king said? He told Eddard to let Tyrion go and make peace with the Lannisters.

After he had already attacked the Riverlands, thus already starting the conflict.

Tywin did storm King's Landing and there were a shitload of troops defending it (capitals are often in such situations during wars) but Pycelle got Aerys to open the gates for him to make the storming much easier.

It isn't storming if you are let in and then proceed to attack the people who thought you were allies.

[BearIslander]

Tywin did storm King's Landing and there were a shitload of troops defending it (capitals are often in such situations during wars) but Pycelle got Aerys to open the gates for him to make the storming much easier.

Only Maegor's was scaled, AFAIK. King's Landing just opened its gates. Tywin was seen as an ally.