Who is the best military commander in fire and ice?

[Darth Visenya]

I'd be very surprised if a Westerosi host came close to being able to harm Balerion.

[Trigger Warning]

I'd be very surprised if a Westerosi host came close to being able to harm Balerion.

Whether they can or not. It's still wise to save them until they're needed rather than run the risk of freak occurrences.

[James Arryn]

Whether they can or not. It's still wise to save them until they're needed rather than run the risk of freak occurrences.

We're debating military skill, though.

So being 0 for everything in terms of being able to assess how effective your conventional armies would be without dragon power seems a poor credential. And the material cost is a significant chunk of the land forces you are saying is the buffer between you and having to risk the dragons. In addition, once your land forces are engaged, I am assuming a necessarily high degree of, heh, friendly fire casualties from dragon fire that otherwise would not have bern lost.

Combine that with the fact that we know of no instances of those dragons actually being taken out by conventional forces, and the record does not IMO betoken a high degree of military acumen.

[Trigger Warning]

We're debating military skill, though.

So being 0 for everything in terms of being able to assess how effective your conventional armies would be without dragon power seems a poor credential. And the material cost is a significant chunk of the land forces you are saying is the buffer between you and having to risk the dragons. In addition, once your land forces are engaged, I am assuming a necessarily high degree of, heh, friendly fire casualties from dragon fire that otherwise would not have bern lost.

Combine that with the fact that we know of no instances of those dragons actually being taken out by conventional forces, and the record does not IMO betoken a high degree of military acumen.

This is more than likely true.

Though there may be other factors, Aegon may have a vast knowledge of Valryian history and dragon warfare and may simply organise his order of battle according to that. There may be instances of dragons being brought down under the weight of projectiles when they just swoop up and over an army that hasn't already been engaged. There's a bit too much speculation militarily when it comes to dragons for me. Though you're probably right.

[Erkan12]

I guess Aegon the Conqueror deserves a mention.

His dragons did the mismatches. Sure he was conqueror but this doesn't make him good commander, he was more like sorcerer/magician.

[gilby]

Did anyone say Bittersteel yet?

edit: yes, apparently, yes they did. But I agree. He's presented as an equal rival to Bloodraven, and he didn't have any magical abilities, just his capabilities as a leader of men.

[James Arryn]

This is more than likely true.

Though there may be other factors, Aegon may have a vast knowledge of Valryian history and dragon warfare and may simply organise his order of battle according to that. There may be instances of dragons being brought down under the weight of projectiles when they just swoop up and over an army that hasn't already been engaged. There's a bit too much speculation militarily when it comes to dragons for me. Though you're probably right.

Yeah, I agree we're operating under a lot of unknowns. The sheer pattern of fight-lose-dragons-win itself might suggest the history has been condensed into snack form. Additionally you have to wonder why anyone would sit on these nukes for 100 years if they were so decisive. But,mynah, assuming what we know is reasonably accurate, Aegon IMO comes off meh as a tactician and localized strategist. Maybe a better campaign architect, though I have most of the same reservations.

[Mad.Hatter]

In my mind, no commander is the best in Westeros, but there are several good ones.

Roose Bolton is a very cautious and clever man. He´s a treacherous snake, who makes sure to poison his enemies after the bite. The Red Wedding was no mere feat, imo, although he did have the help of the Freys to arrange it. He knows how to take care of himself in the game of thrones; he also knows a thing or two about distraction maneuvers and avoiding casualties in already lost battles, though he particularly shines in his diplomatic skills, more than anything else. He almost caught Stannis, but I admit that the brother of Robert was very desperate by then.

Tywin Lannister, the stalking lion, likes to take his time and think things over and over again before he attacks his prey. He is good at offensive strategies; when he does decide to take action, he crushes his enemies in an absolute way. He is capable of holding his own in both political and war fields, and did a good job in both before his eventual death. He´s not that good at deffensive strategies, though. He did a splendid job on the Riverlands campaign, but he´s too proud sometimes, and tends to consider younger, less experienced commanders as inferiors to him.

Randyll Tarly has a lot of good reputation preceding him. He´s like a hawk: he is good when it comes to quick attacks and surprise asaults. He doesn´t relly on the strength of numbers, a strange attribute for a Tyrell vassal. However, he doesn´t crush his enemies in the same way that Tywin would, he more like demoralizes them. In both Duskendale and Ashford, the enemy forces managed to escape from him.

I love how one poster calls Robb Stark the "Alexander the Great of Westeros", because aside from being a great comparison, that´s exactly who he is. He is the young and creative commander, avid for glory in battle but at the same time knowing that war isn´t a game. He likes to rush, not giving the enemy time to prepare, time to think. I disagree with the claim that he only knew how to listen to advice. I analyzed the chapters in which he appeared, and I think he was a great commander on his own. He certainly didn´t understand his men, nor their way of thinking, which is crucial for any military lord, and he failed at politics, but he was good in the field, when it came to drawing swords. He brought fresh strategies to the table, and his military wisdom, combined with his confidence in himself, got the best of him. While the other commanders are calculating bastards, he just charges, but he knew how and where to place his men.

Stannis Baratheon is the poker player veteran. You don´t know what he´s going to do next until it´s too late. He knows what he´s doing, and knows how to win. He exceeds at both defensive and offensive strategies, and always has a backup plan. However, he doesn´t know how to win over his soldiers and sometimes he focuses too much on his objective, without looking either left or right. He´s too strict. He´s sort of like a machine, does his job right but doesn´t have feelings, which is a disadvantage.

Victarion Greyjoy handles very good the naval battles, he´s like a shark that moves comfortably in water, not so much in land. He also knows when his enemy is weak, as evidenced in the attack on Lannisport, carried on by him. We have yet to see him in Essos, but he´s not in charge of the Iron Fleet because of his good looks. Stannis had the power of the Reach behind him, and that combination was just too much for Victarion.

Honorable mentions:

Eddard Stark: saw through Tywin´s plan to spread out the Riverlands´ forces, but haven´t seen him in action alone.

Euron Greyjoy: planned the attack on Lannisport and on the Shield Isles. Yet to see him in real action. Has a lot of potential.

Oberyn Martell: I have this feeling that he knew how to do warfare.

Yohn Bronze: same as Oberyn. He has good reputation. Yet to see him in action.

Barristan Selmy: Lead an attack on one of the Iron Islands, gives good counsel to Dany, we will soon see him in action.

Balon Greyjoy: conducted the attack on the North, excellent offensive strategies. Perhaps I will expand later. I´m in a hurry now.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

"rocket surgery"? Do you mean rocket science?

Idioms are not fixed they can be changed as the user sees fit as long as it still "does the job".

Example fish and frogs can replace cats and dogs. Both tell us its raining hard.

[Michael Herman]

Let's look at the favourites:

Randyll Tarly, his reputation is based primarily on the Battel of Ashford, he won a few battle's in the Wo5Ks, but he had numerically superior forces and those battle's were just Bolton's way of getting rid of the more loyal northmen. The battle of ashford was against tired soldiers, he likely had greater numbers and Robert isn't exactly a fierce competetor, even for an average commander it would be fairly easy to out strategise him.

I don't know how good Tarly is, but there is no reason to assume he is the greatest.

Tywin Lannister, he defeated the Reynes and Tarbecks, sacked Kings landing, and did well in the Wo5Ks. But putting down a couple of vassals with cumulative strengths of likely no more than 10,000 (absolute highest, most houses cannot raise more than 3,0000-4,000 on their own), he could have had 3-4 times their numbers, plus their uprising was because they thought there would be no resistance. He is famed for this, but because of the brutality, not because of the strategy. He sacked KL through deceit and because he had an inside man. He was careless enough to let his fleet get burned in the Greyjoy Rebellion. In the Wo5Ks the only battles he actually fought personally was the green fork and the blackwater, the green fork was a feint in the first place, and Roose is to cautious to take any chances, on the blackwater he had vast numerical superiority.

The Blackfish, he supposedly fought well in the Ninepenny kings, he fought well in the Wo5Ks as well, he serves as top advisor to Robb, and certainly had a role in the main victories (whispering wood, oxcross, the camps). He seems to be more skilled as a commander, particularly of outriders, than as a strategist.

Overall I would say there hasn't been enough war in recent Westerosi history, and enough in depth view of any stratagy other than Robb's to make a certain judgement

[Monk Meth-]

it has to be ned stark seeing as his 15 year old son went undefeated in battle.

[IcedEmpyre]

Aegon the Conqueror! He seems like an obvious choice, but then again what could some of these other commanders like Ned or Tywin accomplish with 3 dragons on their side? Certainly more than Dany has.

[Matoro]

The Blackfish, he supposedly fought well in the Ninepenny kings, he fought well in the Wo5Ks as well, he serves as top advisor to Robb, and certainly had a role in the main victories (whispering wood, oxcross, the camps).

Didn't Robb and Blackfish meet only after battles of WW and the Camps, since he was in Riverrun, sieged by Jaime?

[Kienn]

Didn't Robb and Blackfish meet only after battles of WW and the Camps, since he was in Riverrun, sieged by Jaime?

Blackfish came from the Vale of Arryn with Catelyn and met Robb at Moat Cailin.

[Talleyrand]

it has to be ned stark seeing as his 15 year old son went undefeated in battle.

I'm not seeing the logic here. Ned is the best because his son is good?

If that's the case why isn't Wellesley Bolt acknowledged as the fastest man around? A horrible tragedy that this man isn't getting the credit he deserves