The thorns beneath the roses?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

`Every rose has a thorn.

[MindLikeWarp]

I have to say I thought this thread was going to be about the Tyrells. Is there anyway we can tie them in? Can we connect them to the blue roses?

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

What does the QoT have to do with Jon or Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship?

That, and the crown of thorns was worn by Jesus; with the crown placed in her lap near her womb, it does add a clue to the possible destiny for Jon in terms of a messianic figure.

Sooooooo Jon is the son of God/Prophet? Just what Jon Superfans and Haters needed to hear.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

`Every rose has a thorn.

Yeah it does.

[MindLikeWarp]

Sooooooo Jon is the son of God/Prophet? Just what Jon Superfans and Haters needed to hear.

Why would that matter? We already know he is "The One". He is Martin's Keanu Reeves. That's why the Others haven't attacked yet, but now that he is dead they will. But we all know "The One" can't really die. After all he is "The One".

[Fire Eater]

The hint is the thorns. Ned doesn't view adopting Jon as a mistake. There are no thorns there. There's something else Ned was reaching for, something beautiful which turned ugly. Whether that was Rickard's southern ambitions being thwarted or something else, I'm not sure.

There are too many pieces to the Rhaegar and Lyanna story that are unexplained. The logistics of the "kidnapping" for one. There are a lot of other holes. As I've said elsewhere, someone had to be supplying the ToJ through the rebellion. While Starfall is possible, Ashara Dayne was a handmaiden of Elia Martells and may not have agreed with Arthur on this one. The Red Viper would have likely been none too happy about the idea of hosting his brother-in-law and his mistress in Dorne and any house that helped Lyanna would likely have faced his wrath. Dorne wanted Elia's children to sit the Iron Throne but they wouldn't have been too fond of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The more likely answer is Highgarden and the Reach. After all, there are roses in Lyanna's chamber when she dies.

There's a natural rivalry between Sunspear and Highgarden. Rhaegar choosing Elia over a couple of marriageable Tyrells would have offended Highgarden as much as it did Casterly Rock.

Dorne is still part of the dominion of the IT, and it wasn't like they absconded to Sunspear, but someplace remote. Elia's son would sit the IT anyway since Aegon was Rhaegar's firstborn son. From the looks of it the Daynes helped Rhaegar and Lyanna since Wylla was sent from Starfall. Besides, in Dorne paramours are not uncommon.

There's a natural rivalry between Sunspear and Highgarden. Rhaegar choosing Elia over a couple of marriageable Tyrells would have offended Highgarden as much as it did Casterly Rock. We know Mace Tyrell is obsessed with getting Margaery on the throne. Isn't it possible that oobsession stemmed a generation back? Isn't it possible he's trying to right the perceived slight to his sisters? The Queen of Thorns tries to downplay her sons ambitions as folly. However, I believe that her continued efforts on Margaery's behalf show a vested interest in her son's games.

The Tyrells camped in front of Storm's End and Mace Tyrell had some feasts. It's not like they broke out the siege weapons and tried to storm the walls. It was somewhat effective but not particularly risky or brave. The battle at Ashford was first of all, in Tyrell territory and second was basically a coincidence. Randyll Tarly's vanguard happened upon Robert's army and forced him to retreat. Mace Tyrell did nothing. The Tyrells lose a few people in the Tarly-led vanguard, that's it. There's no pursuit, no real army to army clash. The first opportunity the Tyrells have to fight in the main, they surrender. Sure, Aerys is dead but if they really believed in the cause they could have backed Viserys and continued the fight. The Redwyne navy would have given the Royalists enough time to mount a counter-attack. After all, with Dorne and the Reach still loyal, they had a chance.

There also a few things wrong with that theory. Rhaegar didn't choose Elia as his bride, Aerys did. Second, why would the Tyrells be offended when they didn't have any daughters to marry Rhaegar too? Margaery was their only daughter, and she was born the same year Rhaegar died. Robert wouldn't have met Tarly if Tyrell hadn't called his banners in the first place. Mace Tyrell did nothing, but that was because the battle was finished by the time he arrived, and Robert was in retreat. The Tyrells surrendered because Aerys, Rhaegar and his children were dead, KL had fallen and Tywin had joined Robert so they knew by then the war was a lost cause. HG and Sunspear couldn't take on the rest of the 7K combined, and even so Viserys was a child.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Dorne is still part of the dominion of the IT, and it wasn't like they absconded to Sunspear, but someplace remote. Elia's son would sit the IT anyway since Aegon was Rhaegar's firstborn son. From the looks of it the Daynes helped Rhaegar and Lyanna since Wylla was sent from Starfall. Besides, in Dorne paramours are not uncommon.

We don't know if Wylla was sent from Starfall. We only know that Wylla and Ned once met during the war, and Ned did visit Starfall to give Ashara Arthur's sword back. They could have met there.

The knight of the KG, when dressed in something other than white, might have passed unnoticed underneath the eye of the small folk. They could have gone go get provisions every now and then, in groups of two with the third one staying at ToJ to guard, and return to the tower with the provisions.

There also a few things wrong with that theory. Rhaegar didn't choose Elia as his bride, Aerys did. Second, why would the Tyrells be offended when they didn't have any daughters to marry Rhaegar too? Margaery was their only daughter, and she was born the same year Rhaegar died. Robert wouldn't have met Tarly if Tyrell hadn't called his banners in the first place. Mace Tyrell did nothing, but that was because the battle was finished by the time he arrived, and Robert was in retreat. The Tyrells surrendered because Aerys, Rhaegar and his children were dead, KL had fallen and Tywin had joined Robert so they knew by then the war was a lost cause. HG and Sunspear couldn't take on the rest of the 7K combined, and even so Viserys was a child.

I think he meant that Mace could feel slighted that none of his sisters had been considered. He has sisters, doesn't he? I agree that it seems highly unlikely for Mace to have been involved in R+L. If Mace felt slighted that non of his family had been married to Rhaegar, than every house in the 7K except for House Martell should have felt slighted. We have absolutely no indication that anyone of House Tyrell was ever even considered as a bride. They all knew the Targaryens would have wanted someone with as much Valyrian blood as possible.

[Mithras]

We don't know if Wylla was sent from Starfall. We only know that Wylla and Ned once met during the war, and Ned did visit Starfall to give Ashara Arthur's sword back. They could have met there.

“How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

“How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

I know of this passage :p

But what are you trying to say? I know Edric was born around 287 AL, but as he says, Wylla had served them since before he was born, and apperently is still working there. Edric doesn't mentions any brothers or sisters of his, and his aunt Allyria is not yet married, so there are no little children present who could need a nurse. So Wylla's presence at Starfall after all those years indicates she does other work there as well.

[Mithras]

I know of this passage :P

But what are you trying to say? I know Edric was born around 287 AL, but as he says, Wylla had served them since before he was born, and apperently is still working there. Edric doesn't mentions any brothers or sisters of his, and his aunt Allyria is not yet married, so there are no little children present who could need a nurse. So Wylla's presence at Starfall after all those years indicates she does other work there as well.

Probably she was a servant of House Dayne who was with milk at the right time.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Probably she was a servant of House Dayne who was with milk at the right time.

Exactly :)

[Not Dead Just Broken]

There also a few things wrong with that theory. Rhaegar didn't choose Elia as his bride, Aerys did. Second, why would the Tyrells be offended when they didn't have any daughters to marry Rhaegar too? Margaery was their only daughter, and she was born the same year Rhaegar died. Robert wouldn't have met Tarly if Tyrell hadn't called his banners in the first place. Mace Tyrell did nothing, but that was because the battle was finished by the time he arrived, and Robert was in retreat. The Tyrells surrendered because Aerys, Rhaegar and his children were dead, KL had fallen and Tywin had joined Robert so they knew by then the war was a lost cause. HG and Sunspear couldn't take on the rest of the 7K combined, and even so Viserys was a child.

Wrong generation. Mace has two sisters both of whom could have married Rhaegar. Even if you think they had no hope when Ned came down to lift the siege, the Tyrell war effort was pretty abysmal up to that point.

[Ally Cat of the canals]

I don't think that hg has anything to do with the blue roses. The tyrells probably have always wanted to be apart of the royal family the same as the lannisters but like the mad king said you dont marry your servants. Im sure Olenna probably knows alot more than she lets on. Does she know jon is a targ I doubt it as ned kept it so close to his chest he didn't even tell his wife. It would be interesting to find out what wyalla knows and it would be also interesting to find out if the prince of dorne knows about jon.

[Fire Eater]

Wrong generation. Mace has two sisters both of whom could have married Rhaegar. Even if you think they had no hope when Ned came down to lift the siege, the Tyrell war effort was pretty abysmal up to that point.

But the Tyrells had no reason to take offense, or plot betrayal as a result. If that were the case, the Tyrells would have betrayed the Targaryens years ago in the first Blackfyre Rebellion. There is nothing to suggest that the Tyrells were dragging their feet.

[Lady Kelsey]

We don't know if Wylla was sent from Starfall. We only know that Wylla and Ned once met during the war, and Ned did visit Starfall to give Ashara Arthur's sword back. They could have met there.

The knight of the KG, when dressed in something other than white, might have passed unnoticed underneath the eye of the small folk. They could have gone go get provisions every now and then, in groups of two with the third one staying at ToJ to guard, and return to the tower with the provisions.

I think he meant that Mace could feel slighted that none of his sisters had been considered. He has sisters, doesn't he? I agree that it seems highly unlikely for Mace to have been involved in R+L. If Mace felt slighted that non of his family had been married to Rhaegar, than every house in the 7K except for House Martell should have felt slighted. We have absolutely no indication that anyone of House Tyrell was ever even considered as a bride. They all knew the Targaryens would have wanted someone with as much Valyrian blood as possible.

And Olenna Tyrell said no when they (her father/parents?) suggested a betrothal to a Targ. I know she tells Sansa something to that effect.

I don't see the Tyrells being pissed about that..

As for the connection between HG & Jon/Lyanna: huh?

[OberynBlackfyre]

why does this keep coming up???

If Rhaegar was a rapist, GRRM would not SPEND SO MUCH TIME HAVING HONORED CHARACTERS THINK GOOD THOUGHTS OF HIM

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

why does this keep coming up???

If Rhaegar was a rapist, GRRM would not SPEND SO MUCH TIME HAVING HONORED CHARACTERS THINK GOOD THOUGHTS OF HIM

GRRM tries to show us that no one is wholy bad or wholy good. Someone who is the bad guy in one person's view, can be a hero in another persons view.

Take note to who is calling Rhaegar a rapist and a murderer. It's Robert, who lost the love of his life to Rhaegar, twice (once by the "kidnapping", once by her death). Robert doesn't know the deeper details of the story of R+L, and so, he forms his opinion based on the information that he has.

Ned spoke to Lyanna before she died, and most likely learned the truth of what really happened, which would naturally have caused his opinion about Rhaegar to change to a more positive light.

All of Ned's honour did not prevent him from making bad choices, that badly afflicted the lives of others. That doesn't mean that his view on Rhaegar is to be ignored, but it also doesn't mean that only his opinion can be relayed upon.

In aDwD we get JonCon, who was in love with Rhaegar, most likely, and who thus idealises him. JonCon here is thus the complete opposite of Robert, who hated Rhaegar with every fiber in his body.

We read in Cersei's POVs how much she hated Robert, though the honourable characters you mention think of Robert in a good light, from the beginning of his reign and further. Cersei thinks of Robert only in a bad light, from the moment she married him, up until the moment he died.

It's all about perspective, really.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

But the Tyrells had no reason to take offense, or plot betrayal as a result. If that were the case, the Tyrells would have betrayed the Targaryens years ago in the first Blackfyre Rebellion. There is nothing to suggest that the Tyrells were dragging their feet.

The Tyrells and in particular Olenna Tyrell don't like to make it obvious what they are doing. She keeps up appearances. Open rebellion is not generally Olenna's style. Think about how she involved herself in the Purple Wedding. No one suspected her in that either. If Olenna was plotting against the Targaryens or Rhaegar and Elia in particular, it wouldn't be common knowledge. Without a Tyrell POV it is really hard to judge her motivation. She's critical of Mace's decision to back Renly in the War of the Five Kings. To her that was rash. I think her preferred methods are more subtle.

[Fire Eater]

The Tyrells and in particular Olenna Tyrell don't like to make it obvious what they are doing. She keeps up appearances. Open rebellion is not generally Olenna's style. Think about how she involved herself in the Purple Wedding. No one suspected her in that either. If Olenna was plotting against the Targaryens or Rhaegar and Elia in particular, it wouldn't be common knowledge. Without a Tyrell POV it is really hard to judge her motivation. She's critical of Mace's decision to back Renly in the War of the Five Kings. To her that was rash. I think her preferred methods are more subtle.

Olenna didn't want to get involved with Margaery becoming a queen in general, and let's not forget Olenna isn't the head of House Tyrell, Mace is, and he lacks her subtlety. Olenna had no reason to hold a grudge against Rhaegar and Lyanna. I'm sorry, but I don't think your theory holds any water due to the lack of evidence or clues.

[IRON BANK]

I thought the thorns represented the tragic consequences of their love: the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, the war, the deaths of Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves, plus thousands of others. So much pain and blood and death and destruction because two people fell in love.

Exactly: The thorns represent the danger, and consequences of the incident. A foreshadowing of the chaos to come.