I rather have Jon die than....

[Addam of Hull]

Different strokes and all but...boring? Theon Turncloak Reek Greyjoy? I just can't understand that, personally. I found his ACOK arc to be second only to Tyrion's (and even then a close second) and the Theon stuff in ADWD was easily the strongest, most well-written prose in the book. What makes him a standout in both these books is the fact that he is more than just a view-to-a-world character that is often too frequent, especially in later books. He is an active participant in what he recognizes are frequently bad decisions and he, above all other characters I think, has the fastest consequences for his actions. Even in ACOK, he seldom made a move without immediate repercussion - from familial humiliation/rejection to mockery and armed resistance around Winterfell to being outsmarted and outplayed by Osha. And the escalating series of awful choices to cover the ones before was both relatable (on a theoretical level, obvs) and meticulously detailed. Theon's increasing awareness of his own fucked-ness grows each chapter and he struggles to remain in control of his guilt and doubt as his usual methods of mental self-defense fail him over and over.

And his ADWD arc is pretty much perfect. So much brutality, horror and fear permeate the environment around this broken man who lives out a microcosm of these events inside his own psychological struggle. The Prince of Winterfell is just the most hauntingly beautiful chapter due to the way Theon alternates between searching for serenity (in the godswood, in his fleeting identities, in fantasies of heroism) and the shattering reality of his current captivity*. I was fucking riveted - but I take it maybe this wasn't everyone's cup of tea?

* Meanwhile, Jon Snow's character...

...wants to be a soldier in Robb's army; kinda struggles with guilt over a vow he made.

...wanders around The NorthNorth with fellow black brothers/loyal direwolf, encounters hot redheaded "enemy" he's supposed to kill; kinda struggles with guilt over a vow he made. (Also, the most awesomest of all Rangers totally dies so that Jon "Wait, WHAT?" Snow may live. And then he...)

...falls in love with the hot redhead and has much much sexytimes; kinda struggles with guilt over a vow he made. (Also, shoots so so many arrows off self-defending wall. Bestie Sam runs Jon Snow for LC! Campaign and wins.)

...is LC of Wall, falls in love with Stannis (though, to be fair, who wouldn't ) and slowly begins to root for and push toward a Stannis victory; kinda struggles with guilt over a vow he made. (Gets stabbed a lot, but probably to facilitate his rebirth as the Single-Handed Savior of the Entire Fucking Planet, Also King of Thrones of All Composition.)

I don't dislike Jon Snow and I actively hope to see something good come his way someday. But to literally sacrifice a character as narratively, psychologically and strategically interesting as Theon is (and has always been) in service of one of the more bland personalities we have available would be such a huge loss. That trade-off would have to result in Jon rising as the black-ice-covered King of the Goddamn Others leading an Undead army against all humanity (in a complete and utter reversal of all prophetic expectations...and most of the fandom's.) And even then, NegaJon would have to really bring the awesome to soften that blow.

IMO, of course. :halo:

I certainly won't disagree that Theon has an absolutely brilliantly constructed character arc in general, but I think you weaken your own arguments by framing his arc in the best possible light and then portraying Jon's as a set of actions along with a few smatterings of "lol and then he felt guilty". It's disingenuous at best. I'll give you credit for not threatening to throw a temper tantrum if the story doesn't play out the way you want it to, though, unlike some posters. ;)

I do agree that Theon being sacrificed for Jon is one of the outcomes I want the least, for reasons you've outlined, though.

[tydides]

but what if he never died in the first place?

[Petite Psycophant]

but what if he never died in the first place?

The problem here is that his injuries seem serious enough that death would be inevitable. I'm open to him surviving, even though it would be hard to reconcile that, I'd still rather he miraculously survived somehow than if he died and came back.

[Old-Growth]

My hope is that he didn't actually die.

If he did die, yeah, let him stay dead. UN-everything really destroys the 'honesty ' of death George says is important in the narrative. I was ok with Dondarrion as a 1-off. Cat is meh. UN-Jon would risk jumping the UN-shark for me.

GRRM, re Jon: "Oh you think he's dead do you?" (From an interview shortly after ADwD came out.)

[Nictarion]

Agree OP, I'm over the whole resurrection thing.

Let's hope they're just flesh wounds.

That's what I'm hoping for as well. I would like that better than him warging into Ghost, or being resurrected by Mel.

[MotherAnduin]

I think resurrection by Mel is the best way forward. He is now indebt to her and the Old God have done nothing for him. A crisis of faith will make Jon a better character than the lame one he is right now.

[Nictarion]

I think resurrection by Mel is the best way forward. He is now indebt to her and the Old God have done nothing for him. A crisis of faith will make Jon a better character than the lame one he is right now.

The old gods made him a powerful warg, and sent him a badass direwolf.

[Ted Chang]

I think even if he isn't an UnJon he is not going to be the same. I don't think an UnJon would be king of anything btw except for a possible king of the Others or a Night's King.

This I think is the key point. I actually think the previous bits of resurrection were to get us ready for the big one - this. Jon wil be changed, whether it it by the magic or the expereince of being murdered, and possibly both. FWIW I think Jon will be fully resurrected rather than an UN-anything. Somehow GRRM has to start bringing his diverse threads together and I suspect a large chunk of that will be done through the Melisandre-Jon pairing. Nothing to do with a love-in (probably). She looks to be more incompetent than she likely is because GRRM has painted her backing the wrong horse. All her decisions are based on her certainty regarding Stannis but there are more than enough hints in the story that she may have misread the signs. In any case, I think a major sea change for Jon will be coming. Not with his personality, but rather with his realisation that his duty lies elsewhere.

[The Sleeper]

The old gods made him a powerful warg, and sent him a badass direwolf.

Also, his little brother is one of them.

[MotherMerciless]

I think he will come back, either his wounds are not mortal wounds or (most likely, else why would she be there?) Mel will resurrect him.

I don't think he will come back as broken as Cat because Cat had a far more traumatic last moments in her life and was dead for a long time before being brought back.

Dondarion seemed to be a pretty normal guy, even after being resurrected multiple times, he lost his memories bit by bit. Hopefully Jon only needs it to be done once.

If Jon were to die for good it would be too much of a plot hole in the story. Too much investment in him, too many things yet to be revealed.

I don't see the resurrection thing as a plot device, it's a world where it happens, so sometimes it happens.

I do understand that there is a bit of an emotional detachment from the character after a resurrection though, especially if said character returns with a very altered personality.

Mind you, him warging into Ghost is also pretty interesting. Still leaves a huge plot hole, but it is interesting!

Maybe he does do that, and Mel tries to resurrect him, and he sees this through Ghosts eyes. He can then choose to return to his body, making the resurrection a success, or escape all this human suffering and stay in Ghost, making the resurrection not work, as there is no soul in his body anymore.

[Ahura Mazda]

I agree with the OP. I would rather see him really dead than undead or revived. :bang:

[David Selig]

Excuse me as i summon my inner Apple Martini.

Ahem. Im seriously going to cackle like a hyena if Jon walks out of his own funeral pyre. Especially at the cost of Theon's life. And if Mel has nothing to do with said walking out of funeral pyre.

No. Not just cackle, but roll on the floor uncontrollably while fist pumping and going "WINNER!"

:cool4:

That's downright masochistic. Sacrificing the most interesting and best written character (of those still living at the end of ADWD) for the most boring and poorly written one. Why would anyone want that? :cool4:

[MotherAnduin]

The old gods made him a powerful warg, and sent him a badass direwolf.

Bloodraven did. Jon doesn't believe his warging is a gift from gods. While he thinks Ghost belongs to the gods, he doesn't think he was sent by them. The Old Gods gave him nothing but misery. Rahloo gave him a second chance. If that doesn't shake his faith, I'd be dissapointed.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

I do not necessarily want him to be ressurected but it could be done very well. For example he could become hard as a rock and may discover how to warg Ghost or something.

The wors thing would be if he came back just like he was before that would be awful.

[Nictarion]

Bloodraven did. Jon doesn't believe his warging is a gift from gods. While he thinks Ghost belongs to the gods, he doesn't think he was sent by them. The Old Gods gave him nothing but misery. Rahloo gave him a second chance. If that doesn't shake his faith, I'd be dissapointed.

When was it ever stated wargs and skin changers aren't associated with the old gods? Why are they exclusively found in the north and are all descendants of the first men if it's not?

[Welease Woger]

The problem here is that his injuries seem serious enough that death would be inevitable. I'm open to him surviving, even though it would be hard to reconcile that, I'd still rather he miraculously survived somehow than if he died and came back.

You know nothing Petite Psycophant. There are documented cases of historical figures who survived worse attempts. Grigori Rasputin in 1914 was stabbed twice in the belly and had his entrails hanging out from his body, but he was promptly aided and survived. Jon had only flesh wounds in nonlethal organs and there's a lot of people close by that could help him.

I actually hope he never died, we have enough zombies in the story already. But the trope of having people apparently killed is getting tiresome too: Brienne, Tyrion, Arya, Theon, Davos...

[tydides]

The problem here is that his injuries seem serious enough that death would be inevitable. I'm open to him surviving, even though it would be hard to reconcile that, I'd still rather he miraculously survived somehow than if he died and came back.

yep, totally agree with you on that. i dont like the magically come back to life thing. only way (in my mind) martin could pull it off is by somehow using some sort of mythological trope, like the Corn King (talked about on the forums somewhere) or a Life-Death-Rebirth god. If he incorporates one of those very very well I might consider being ok with a resurrection. But the odds are that wont happen/he wont do it to my satisfaction.

[Dead Wolf]

I think he's just dead. George has saved Jon's sorry ass in every way imaginable, even at times when nothing seemed like it could save him. It would be hilarious if he gave us an obvious way Jon could survive (Mel) and then just had him be dead

[MoIaF]

I do not necessarily want him to be ressurected but it could be done very well. For example he could become hard as a rock and may discover how to warg Ghost or something.

The wors thing would be if he came back just like he was before that would be awful.

Agreed - a price needs to be paid and Jon coming back as if nothing happens wouldn't be with keeping with the theme of the story.

I would also want to see something different to what has been done before, maybe he'll need to be resurrected by both ice and fire, but in the end he shouldn't come back the same as he was before.

[Lyse Stark]

I think GRRM's not done with Jon Snow yet. I think he has much to do and learn.