A Theory: The possibly game-changing secret beneath the Winterfell Crypts

[~DarkHorse~]

If it makes you feel better, should it be found it would likely grace Rickon's head by the end of the story as the direct heir to the throne of the North which Lyanna never was.

:agree:

I can't see Jon keeping it from the Stark heir.

It would be ironic, House Targaryen took the crown from House Stark but a Targaryen (who is more Stark) gives it back.

[Blazfemur]

Finally, If you *really* want to hammer your brain, consider this comment from a redditor (my personal favorite from the original reddit post):

You know what else this post made me see? Jon is literally promised. "Promise me, Ned." If she's talking about Jon, and he's truly rhaegars son, he is literally a prince promised.

i love all of it, and to conclude with this, it fits so well.

i hate relying that all that's in winterfell's crypts is the harp, but it does have merit. (Me personally, i wanted to see the shield of the knight of the laughing tree, or an imprisoned, entombed night's queen)

[Dragon Seed]

It seems that one of the sticking points about this harp is..............How did Ned get it to Winterfell without it being seen, How could he have the ability to carry it while also transporting his sisters bones, Danes sword, and Lady Dustins brothers horse and some other stuff.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall reading that Lady Dustin was really upset that Ned didn't bring her brothers bones back to the North.

He didn't bring Dustins bones but he brought back his horse? Why?

Because he used the extra horse to haul among other things, Rhagars Harp!!!!

Maybe:)

[robwoody]

Cool thread, but you know what I'd like to see as evidence of Jon's claim? Controlling a dragon. Better than a harp. :cool4:

There's definitely suggestions that something is hidden in the crypt, but to me this could be a sign that Jon's mother Lyanna is buried there rather than physical "proof".

My question is why would Ned keep the evidence? I think The Ned wanted Jon to be safe but to never make a claim for the throne. Ned doesn't want to tell him the truth until AFTER Jon joins the Night Watch and swears off inheriting anything.

This post by Aetta convinced me that when Ned said "Now it ends" he meant that he would not allow his nephew to be the heir to the Targaryan dynasty, after all, he was pledged to Robert.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99432-they-were-protecting-jon-from-what-toj/?p=5131515

I know you suggest that the promise Ned made was that he had to tell Jon one day. I think its more likely that the promise was to raise Jon as his own in Winterfell, because otherwise why did the fear go out of Lyanna's eyes when he agreed? I think its more likely the fear was about her new born son being raised by someone who would look after him than about the prophecy.

never thought of this until I read your post, but perhaps the harp is much more than simply proof of his Targaryen heritage... what if it's the key to controlling dragons? What if the melancholy sound this unique silver stringed harp makes is the only thing in the world that calms dragons? There's plenty of examples of music soothing wild beasts: Snake charmers, Cerberus from Greek mythology, Zelda, Spyro, The Old Testament, LOTR, the Tazmanian Devil, the flute for Fluffy and the klankers for the dragon from Gringotts in Harry Potter, the Hound when he's drunk and holds a knife to Sansa's throat and threatens to kill her unless she sings, until she sings a song of such sweet mercy and peace that he cries and the "beast inside him is lulled to sleep"

There are some real problems with the harp. Most harps would have been large, wooden instruments that would not have weathered almost two decades in the dank Winterfell crypts very well.

There's also the question of how any object in Lyanna's tomb would have been transported to Winterfell without the knowledge of anyone but Ned and his group of friends. Ned was already traveling with a lot of important objects, a horse, bones, and a sword among them. There probably wasn't manpower or space to transport a large object.

Nowhere is the size of Rhaegar's harp discussed, to my knowledge. It is a unique instrument, could possibly be made dragonbone for all we know, or maybe it's made from some magical material similar to valyrian steel that does not tarnish. In fact I have a feeling the "unique silver strings" were made of valyrian steel, but I'm sure you know all about how that's made too and why that can't be possible as well

[Howling Mad]

Makes more sense the most theories and the particulars have been discussed in multiple times in previous threads.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

i love all of it, and to conclude with this, it fits so well.

i hate relying that all that's in winterfell's crypts is the harp, but it does have merit. (Me personally, i wanted to see the shield of the knight of the laughing tree, or an imprisoned, entombed night's queen)

The marriage cloak is there too. IIRC...the shield used by TKotLT was found at Harrenhal, so I doubt it would have been saved.

An entombed NQ is possible...or the real NK (their son, AKA Cold Hands, is searching for a way to the other side of the wall...

Or...the Others need south of the Wall too. We have all men of the realm hating the Wildings....but we have an explanation from several wildings via Jon's POV why they need south of the wall...what if the Others need south too but we haven't heard from them...

[Bendubz]

You sir have just blown my mind. Up until now I'd refused to choose a theory over Jon's parentage, but you've convinced me. I especially liked that unlike most R+L=J theories you actually also considered the legitimacy of Aegon.

My one concern is how would the harp survive in the crypt. AFAIK it isn't made of Weirwood. Is it possible that it is instead Torrhen's crown and 2 Dragon eggs in Lyanna's tomb? I say two so there can be one fire one ice

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Torrhen Stark's crown or the original Ice or Jon's tomb waiting him.

[Ser Eric]

lolwut?

How can a bloody harp prove Jon's legitimacy? How would that reveal even go?

Jon (waving the harp in the air): "I'm Rhaegar's son!"

Random Lord: "So you are! That's the harp I saw Rhaegar play at Harrenhall, I'll be bound! Fifteen years inside a dark, damp tomb and it hasn't changed a whit. Amazing!"

Random Lord 2:"You're still a bastard, boy!"

Jon Snow: "Ah! But I also found a bridal cloak (also in pristine condition) and an official marriage document (Completely undamaged because Rhaegar 'magicked' it). I'm the King yo!"

Random Lord 3: "My Lords, that sounds very legit. You can't dispute that sort of concrete evidence!"

Aegon's path to proving his legitimacy is a lot less daunting than Jon's. Aegon looks like a Targaryen and he's only supposed to be dead. Jon looks nothing like a Targ and he's not even supposed to exist.

Fact of the matter is, Jon cannot prove his legitimacy to anyone. Not unless GRRM comes up with a new kind of magic to facilitate the reveal which is unlikely.

[Nerevanin]

Wow, this is a great theory! I've never think of what happened to the harp. And it's clear that Lyanna's tomb is somehow important. A really good job! :)

[herzog horse]

I was thinking the harp a plausible item in the tomb until I read your man Ser Eric who posted above. You had me laughing out loud to the confusion of others in the room.

[Jô Maltese]

Ser Eric, herzog horse, I have also stated that the harp itself would not be enough to prove anything. But it would give pretty good circumstantial evidence:

- an acknowledgement of Lyanna's and Rhaegar true love - and therefore their possible wedding (tWoIaF very much opens the door to Targ's polygamy tradition) ;

- a proof of Ned's own acknowledgement of the above ;

- and therefore a new angle on Ned's return with baby Jon at the end of the war...

[Ser Eric]

Ser Eric, herzog horse, I have also stated that the harp itself would not be enough to prove anything. But it would give pretty good circumstantial evidence:

- an acknowledgement of Lyanna's and Rhaegar true love - and therefore their possible wedding (tWoIaF very much opens the door to Targ's polygamy tradition) ;

- a proof of Ned's own acknowledgement of the above ;

- and therefore a new angle on Ned's return with baby Jon at the end of the war...

Let's be honest here, going from finding the harp to concluding Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents is a huge stretch. One thing Ned did very well was to ensure no one associated Jon with Lyanna and Rhaegar. There's absolutely no one in the series who ventures into that direction, not even those who knew Rhaegar loved her and did not infact rape her. Jon has very little reason to believe Ned is lying to him especially as he looks so much like Ned himself. Logically speaking, Jon's initial reaction would be something like "wtf? I thought this guy raped my aunt" followed by "Maybe they loved each other and dad just wanted placate King Bob by lying about it?".

tl;dr Ned did an impeccable job in trying to protect Jon so it would take hell of a lot more than a mere harp to even get him to think in that direction.

We also have to assume the harp hasn't actually disintegrated beyond recognition, which is a pretty big assumption in itself.

[TheonGreyjoy]

There could also be a dragon egg, too prove Jon is legitime, as all Targaryans would get one in their creeps.

[Jô Maltese]

Let's be honest here, going from finding the harp to concluding Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents is a huge stretch. One thing Ned did very well was to ensure no one associated Jon with Lyanna and Rhaegar. There's absolutely no one in the series who ventures into that direction, not even those who knew Rhaegar loved her and did not infact rape her. Jon has very little reason to believe Ned is lying to him especially as he looks so much like Ned himself. Logically speaking, Jon's initial reaction would be something like "wtf? I thought this guy raped my aunt" followed by "Maybe they loved each other and dad just wanted placate King Bob by lying about it?".

tl;dr Ned did an impeccable job in trying to protect Jon so it would take hell of a lot more than a mere harp to even get him to think in that direction.

We also have to assume the harp hasn't actually disintegrated beyond recognition, which is a pretty big assumption in itself.

Again I mostly agree, it will need more clues to fill in the gap (go back to my first post) but I do not think the stretch will be that huge to link the dots, exactly for the reason you give of Ned's effort to hide any possible association between Jon and the L+R, i.e. between Stark and Targaryen houses. The Targaryen harp found in the Stark crypts would at once create a connection, and from there some Westerosi people would start to add 1+1 as did the readers...

[239JMFL34109]

i could see jon getting told ned was not his father and because jon loves ned he calls BS. he always wanted ned to be his father. SO let's say howland tells him the truth and is like i can prove it. he got down to the tomb and pull out a box was the harp an egg and etc... this is the destrection of the last external thing jon uses to ID himself. i could see all of this being true and jon keeping it a secret.

[Ser Few of the Fingers]

I'm trying to reconcile this amazin theory with the fact that there is a well know harp-player luring right now in Winterfell: Mance Rayder. What's the connection here? Haw can we find a cure to the M=R theory?

[Federico]

I immediately thought, a harp of silver in the crypts would disintegrate. However, pull a stone out of a river and split it open and you'll find its core dry.

If the stuff were in a box carved from stone, with a heavy stone lid with the adjoining edges lined with sealing wax, and perhaps a couple cups of rice inside, the harp and other stuff could survive indefinitely.

Such a box would require Ned to want the contents to survive. I imagine he would not want to, for Jon's sake, and the 7 Kingdoms, unless Lyanna compelled him.

I don't imagine such a box a typical item in the crypts. I expect Ned could persuade folk to keep that secret. He could also say the box would preserve some flowers that she loved. Though, with a harp, cloak, crown, bones, and/or other things, it's size might seem odd for that cover-story.

[Federico]

I do wonder though, what did Lyanna hope to accomplish with whatever she had Ned promise her. What did she want?

- to have her bones returned to Winterfell

- to have something uniquely Rhaegar's buried with her for eternity

- to have her son know the truth of his parentage

- to have her son live a long and happy life

- to have her son fulfill a vague prophecy

- to return the Stark crown to Winterfell

- to have her son rule Westeros

- to have her son rule with a Stark crown

The first four are very likely. The last four are less likely. Are there others?

Also, 15 years passed with none of the final 6 goals knowingly manifest.

[Bendubz]

I'm trying to reconcile this amazin theory with the fact that there is a well know harp-player luring right now in Winterfell: Mance Rayder. What's the connection here? Haw can we find a cure to the M=R theory?

Have we had a description of what Mance actually looks like. Because if he's small then it could be that HR=MR