Aegon at ToJ

[Mladen]

:tantrum: :bawl: :tantrum: :bawl: :tantrum: Why you stopped the fun?

For he is the slayer of funs and his is the song of logic and reason.

Ah, the wailing and gnashing of teeth. What a festive sound :P

Just kidding. Sorry to be a spoilsport, friends, but I have had lots of cudly christmas-related moods all around me. Sometimes I just have to bring out my analytic side, and my family usually hates me when I do that, so I'll keep it to places that are designated for discussion. Sorry to hit you guys and gals ;)

Yeap, Vale guy oppressed the freedom of bad crackpot ideas. He should be ashamed for posting all those questions that matter :)

And I do believe that any theory should be given space... We would have never had much fun if there is no bad theories. They give us those fun moments of laughs, and when we are deprived of that, we all get angry... You are Scrooge of bad RLJ/ToJ theories :)

[The guy from the Vale]

Yeap, Vale guy oppressed the freedom of bad crackpot ideas. He should be ashamed for posting all those questions that matter :)

And I do believe that any theory should be given space... We would have never had much fun if there is no bad theories. They give us those fun moments of laughs, and when we are deprived of that, we all get angry... You are Scrooge of bad RLJ/ToJ theories :)

You know, I agree with you that all theories should be given space - and they are. But at the same time, the people asking questions need also be given space. It's usually beneficial for both sides to have a honest debate ;)

[Mladen]

You know, I agree with you that all theories should be given space - and they are. But at the same time, the people asking questions need also be given space. It's usually beneficial for both sides to have a honest debate ;)

And you know how much appreciation and honor I hold for everything you write... This was just joking about you cutting this in roots... :)

[The guy from the Vale]

I figured as much, and can only return the feeling with humility ;)

[finger]

These two should be moved into the "My own stuff category."

No reason to believe Rhaegar did haggle or could. Chelsted was still Hand when Rhaegar came back. If Rhaegar was haggling with Aerys, why not demand to become the Hand? We do not even know if Aerys let Rhaegar into the Red Keep when he returned to KL.

The first half is ok, "That there is something at the ToJ of value," yes, that it has to be something besides a second wife is not "easily guessed."

No, I haven't finished, just having a rest.

You may move it wherever you please, if you don't like it, just prove it false. I've explained a method.

We talk often of logic, and this is about judging Rhaegar's reaction logically. You think Rhaegar came back readily, never asking a groat in exchange, even his friend being forgiven. Then he left three KG guarding a pregnant woman he coudn't take back.

Well, if you find this is logical, I guess I can't change your mind, I don't.

They found the Golden Company beside the river as the sun was lowering in the west. It was a camp that even Arthur Dayne might have approved of—compact, orderly, defensible. A deep ditch had

been dug around it, with sharpened stakes inside. The tents stood in rows, with broad avenues between them. The latrines had been placed beside the river, so the current would wash away the wastes.

That is a by-the-book camp, and while we can safely conclude that Arthur Dayne led a military force at least once, knew the routine well and ran the command tight, it still tells nothing about his commanding skills in the field. It doesn't provide any basis for perceiving him as some Alexander the Great of Westeros.

Concerning the presence of a Maester at ToJ: if there was indeed one, which is in no way a must (a skilled midwife would do no worse, it's not like maesters are the only ones who might assist in childbirth), then Starfall is the closest friendly location.

Haven't you read what I answered to Mladen? It seems you didn't

JC was himself an army leader, and he still remembered Arthur Dayne sixteen years after his death. Not Aegon the Conqueror, Tywin Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen, but Arthur Dayne. It sound like the man you'd like to see by your side when it comes to battle.

I could remind what Ned thought of the three warriors wasted drying under Dorne's sun but, even though he had only the little merit you allow him, he was not to be let aside.

You boast of logic. I wonder what you find it's logical.

[finger]

You know, I agree with you that all theories should be given space - and they are. But at the same time, the people asking questions need also be given space. It's usually beneficial for both sides to have a honest debate ;)

I'm not angry... yet.

I'll try not to leave any question unanswered.

Eta: I've said that I'd rather restrict the debate to the main arc, that Aegon was taken to ToJ and then smuggled. It's clearer, but we can discuss what you like.

[finger]

Yeap, Vale guy oppressed the freedom of bad crackpot ideas. He should be ashamed for posting all those questions that matter :)

And I do believe that any theory should be given space... We would have never had much fun if there is no bad theories. They give us those fun moments of laughs, and when we are deprived of that, we all get angry... You are Scrooge of bad RLJ/ToJ theories :)

What's a bad theory? For instance, Rhaegar left three skilled warriors wtih Lyanna, while he came back to Kl on his own, just because they needed four to bridge.

I'm still waiting for a decent explanation for something I find absurd.

C'mon, every question deserves an answer, doesn't it?

[Ser Leftwich]

No, I haven't finished, just having a rest.

You may move it wherever you please, if you don't like it, just prove it false. I've explained a method.

We talk often of logic, and this is about judging Rhaegar's reaction logically. You think Rhaegar came back readily, never asking a groat in exchange, even his friend being forgiven. Then he left three KG guarding a pregnant woman he coudn't take back.

Well, if you find this is logical, I guess I can't change your mind, I don't.

You have assigned a motivation for the KG being at the ToJ, I did not assign any motivation. I can't know it, all I know is that they were there. I reject your motivation, because there are no grounds for it except you want it to be the motivation. It is not a question of it being false. It is a possible motivation, but far from the known motivation.

Again, you are supposing what you think Rhaegar would think and do in that situation. While it is a possible chain of reason, we have no indication of it happening. But, again, I will propose why would Rhaegar not ask for something better, for instance, being the Hand?

What's a bad theory? For instance, Rhaegar left three skilled warriors wtih Lyanna, while he came back to Kl on his own, just because they needed four to bridge.

I'm still waiting for a decent explanation for something I find absurd.

C'mon, every question deserves an answer, doesn't it?

By Rhaegar insisting that the KG stay at the ToJ, they could not be compelled to tell anything to Aerys when they returned to KL. It is logical. Keep in mind the Robellion was not really thought to be of any consequence until Rhaegar returns to KL.

[finger]

1) When you say 'he' was in touch with "someone " out there, who and where are you talking about?

2) JonCon was a friend of Rhaegar, not best friend. Not even Jon Con makes the assertion of "best friend."

3) What in Hightower's behavior is not proper? If he is obeying the king's commands and has seen to the king's security before he (Hightower) left KL, he is doing everything by the book.

We have the scene in ASoS, where the KG meets:

Kettleblack complied. The other Sworn Brothers filed in one by one. “Sers,” Jaime said in a formal tone when all five had assembled, “who guards the king?”

“My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd,” Ser Osmund replied.

“And my brother Ser Garlan,” said the Knight of Flowers.

“Will they keep him safe?”

“They will, my lord.”

“Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured.

ASoS p. 917

Whenever Hightower left KL, there were KG with Aerys, at least Jaime, at most Jaime, Darry, Selmy, and Martell.

Again, what is not proper about Hightower's behavior?

It seems I'm inventing the story. It has been noticed here that the KG at ToJ where well informed, even when the war was lost. They should have a good channel of communication.

At least, you recognize JC was Rhaegar's friend. Actually, it doesn't mean much to the storyline.

The LC of the KG is sent to deliver a message (there weren't gloden cloaks). Then he lets his prince coming back alone (it was war!), while he stays in the middle of nothing.

If you still think his behaviour is just right, I'm afraid I can't do anything.

[Ser Leftwich]

It seems I'm inventing the story. It has been noticed here that the KG at ToJ where well informed, even when the war was lost. They should have a good channel of communication.

At least, you recognize JC was Rhaegar's friend. Actually, it doesn't mean much to the storyline.

The LC of the KG is sent to deliver a message (there weren't gloden cloaks). Then he lets his prince coming back alone (it was war!), while he stays in the middle of nothing.

If you still think his behaviour is just right, I'm afraid I can't do anything.

You yourself have suggested that Rhaegar commanded Hightower to stay either because of Aerys's orders or because of Rhaegar's. You can not have it both ways. How could Hightower not do as he was commanded?

Would he be forced (gasp) into a situation where he had a conflict between his orders, vows, and/or own idea of what to do?

Also, how is Aegon being at the ToJ a factor for the overall story? Mladen or someone asked his up thread and you ignored it.

ETA: This.

But that's my point: Aegon's fate during RR and his current situation are indivisible matters. If you insist Aegon is still alive, you also have to explain how it matters for the story. I also don't see any indication that Aegon is in Asshai, except your heartfelt wish (which you are entitled to, of course).

The KG could have left two of them behind and have the last one disappear with Aegon. In Asshai, even a White Cloak would be safe I think. Why would Gerold send a one-year-old Aegon on such a dangerous voyage, without any KG protection? And then nobody but Gerold could really vouch for the identity of the kid, which means he almost has to accompany Aegon.

We're really getting bogged down here in lots of fanfiction and losing sight of my main point: You have a massive gap in the story in terms of how that real Aegon would matter, how he could come into the story, and how we could explain his absence and the circumstances (like, for example, him being deserted by the Kingsguard, which should raise lots of red flags).

[finger]

You have assigned a motivation for the KG being at the ToJ, I did not assign any motivation. I can't know it, all I know is that they were there. I reject your motivation, because there are no grounds for it except you want it to be the motivation. It is not a question of it being false. It is a possible motivation, but far from the known motivation.

Again, you are supposing what you think Rhaegar would think and do in that situation. While it is a possible chain of reason, we have no indication of it happening. But, again, I will propose why would Rhaegar not ask for something better, for instance, being the Hand?

By Rhaegar insisting that the KG stay at the ToJ, they could not be compelled to tell anything to Aerys when they returned to KL. It is logical. Keep in mind the Robellion was not really thought to be of any consequence until Rhaegar returns to KL.

Then, there's some things we agree: Rhaegar commanded them to stay at ToJ so that Aerys couldn't question them, and It'd be logical for him to ask for a high price.

The Rebellion was serious when Aerys sacked Merrywether. It was very serious after Stony Sept.

It has been discussed if being Hand adds any power to the Prince of Dragonstone, and heir of the IT.

Instead, he'd been better off having AD or JC at the Trident.

Btw, what did he ask Aerys?

[Ser Leftwich]

Then, there's some things we agree: Rhaegar commanded them to stay at ToJ so that Aerys couldn't question them, and It'd be logical for him to ask for a high price.

The Rebellion was serious when Aerys sacked Merrywether. It was very serious after Stony Sept.

It has been discussed if being Hand adds any power to the Prince of Dragonstone, and heir of the IT.

Instead, he'd been better off having AD or JC at the Trident.

Btw, what did he ask Aerys?

We do not even know if Rhaegar and Aerys spoke when Rhaegar returned to KL. As far as the story is concerned (not the one you are making up), Rhaegar did not ask for anything.

[J. Stargaryen]

This idea that Rhaegar must have negotiated some price for his return to KL is absurd in the extreme. The only reason this "must have" taken place is for the benefit of the OP's theory. It has no value story wise. The Targaryen dynasty was in danger; that was all the motivation Rhaegar needed.

[Ygrain]

This idea that Rhaegar must have negotiated some price for his return to KL is absurd in the extreme. The only reason this "must have" taken place is for the benefit of the OP's theory. It has no value story wise. The Targaryen dynasty was in danger; that was all the motivation Rhaegar needed.

Oh, I could think about something that Rhaegar might have wanted from Aerys very much and it would play a role, but it wouldn't have remained secret if they spoke about it, and as there has been no indication of certain almost-omniscient character knowing, it probably never happened.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not even touching the Jon-is-Aegon possibility because it's flat-out ridiculous and frankly not even worth a response at this point.

As for Aegon being at the Tower, Ned came and encountered all three remaining Kingsguard. He survived and tore down the building. If Aegon was there, wouldn't Ned have encountered him? So why does Ned explicitly think that Aegon is dead?

OK, maybe they sent Aegon away from the Tower before Ned showed up. In which case, at least one of the Kingsguard would have gone with him. Yet all three are there when Ned shows up. So neither Aegon still being there when Ned shows up (if he was, Ned wouldn't think of him as being dead) nor him being sent away (one of the Kingsguard would surely have gone with him) make any sense.

Aegon was not at the Tower. Aegon is dead.

As for the "they," I think it's actually straightforward as hell: Arthur brought Wylla from Starfall, she helped deliver Jon and was his first wet nurse, and she was with Howland when they found Ned with Lyanna's body. After the people were buried, Wylla went back to Starfall with Ned when he returned the sword, they colluded on the cover story, Wylla remained at Starfall and she was there to nurse Edric Dayne and may still be there, who knows. Point is, the "they" does not need to be overcomplicated.

[finger]

You yourself have suggested that Rhaegar commanded Hightower to stay either because of Aerys's orders or because of Rhaegar's. You can not have it both ways. How could Hightower not do as he was commanded?

Would he be forced (gasp) into a situation where he had a conflict between his orders, vows, and/or own idea of what to do?

Also, how is Aegon being at the ToJ a factor for the overall story? Mladen or someone asked his up thread and you ignored it.

ETA: This.

But that's the point!

Should there be a conflict between orders, whom will Hightower obey? Rhaegar's command had to be coherent with Aerys'.

You have to imagine the orders of both of them.

Suppose Aerys ordered: "Go find Rhaegar and bring him here." He didn't.

Otoh, what could Hightower say to Rhaegar, so that he came back? What did Rhaegar get?

I don't understand the other question. If Aegon is alive, he's the king for the Targ supporters, no matter where he is. It's up to you to judge if it's material to the story.

This is about infering how and when Aegon was taken out of KL. I don't understand Rhaenys' doubts with the timeline, either.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But that's the point!

Should there be a conflict between orders, whom will Hightower obey? Rhaegar's command had to be coherent with Aerys'.

You have to imagine the orders of both of them.

Suppose Aerys ordered: "Go find Rhaegar and bring him here." He didn't.

Otoh, what could Hightower say to Rhaegar, so that he came back? What did Rhaegar get?

Here's how I interpret it, in a way that's plausible without being too much of a technical mindfuck:

Aerys: "Hightower, go find Rhaegar and tell him I command him to come back and lead the army."

Hightower: "Yessir."

Hightower finds Rhaegar.

Hightower: "Rhaegar, your father commands you to go back and command the army."

Rhaegar: "I will do that. In the meantime, you stay here with Dayne and Whent."

Hightower has no conflicting orders from Aerys that would override that. And Aerys, not knowing exactly where Hightower was, would have no way to override those orders.

Again, it is not nearly as complicated as people are making it out to be.

[J. Stargaryen]

Oh, I could think about something that Rhaegar might have wanted from Aerys very much and it would play a role, but it wouldn't have remained secret if they spoke about it, and as there has been no indication of certain almost-omniscient character knowing, it probably never happened.

What I meant is that a negotiation had no value story wise. It would be like an office worker negotiating for a longer lunch break while his desk is on fire.

If Rhaegar didn't go back and try to stamp out RR, there would be no dynasty left for him, Aegon or Jon.

I'm not even touching the Jon-is-Aegon possibility because it's flat-out ridiculous and frankly not even worth a response at this point.

As for Aegon being at the Tower, Ned came and encountered all three remaining Kingsguard. He survived and tore down the building. If Aegon was there, wouldn't Ned have encountered him? So why does Ned explicitly think that Aegon is dead?

OK, maybe they sent Aegon away from the Tower before Ned showed up. In which case, at least one of the Kingsguard would have gone with him. Yet all three are there when Ned shows up. So neither Aegon still being there when Ned shows up (if he was, Ned wouldn't think of him as being dead) nor him being sent away (one of the Kingsguard would surely have gone with him) make any sense.

Aegon was not at the Tower. Aegon is dead.

As for the "they," I think it's actually straightforward as hell: Arthur brought Wylla from Starfall, she helped deliver Jon and was his first wet nurse, and she was with Howland when they found Ned with Lyanna's body. After the people were buried, Wylla went back to Starfall with Ned when he returned the sword, they colluded on the cover story, Wylla remained at Starfall and she was there to nurse Edric Dayne and may still be there, who knows. Point is, the "they" does not need to be overcomplicated.

One thing that occurred to me a few days ago, which I mentioned in the R+L=J thread, is that Wylla Manderly's speech in Davos III, made famous by your sig, is a reference to Wylla the wet nurse knowing about Promise me, Ned.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

One thing that occurred to me a few days ago, which I mentioned in the R+L=J thread, is that Wylla Manderly's speech in Davos III, made famous by your sig, is a reference to Wylla the wet nurse knowing about Promise me, Ned.

"I know about the promise ..." Brilliant.

And no, I don't think it's unintentional that it's a Lyanna and a Wylla who are arguing in favor of a Stark king (and possibly Jon himself, depending on the interpretation of the will). But that's for another thread. :P

[finger]

We do not even know if Rhaegar and Aerys spoke when Rhaegar returned to KL. As far as the story is concerned (not the one you are making up), Rhaegar did not ask for anything.

This idea that Rhaegar must have negotiated some price for his return to KL is absurd in the extreme. The only reason this "must have" taken place is for the benefit of the OP's theory. It has no value story wise. The Targaryen dynasty was in danger; that was all the motivation Rhaegar needed.

So, not only he didn't ask for nothing, but asking for it was an absurd idea.

I'm trying to be serious.