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Syrio = Jaqen H'ghar?


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#1 Yosef Slyfox

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:23 AM

So...I'm pretty sure that Jaqen H'ghar is Syrio. As far as I remember it was never mentioned that Syrio was actually killed. If not, he would have been thrown in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Maybe he figured it was then time to change faces? Better to look a nameless thief rather than the guy who helped Arya Stark escape. And so then Yoren rounds up all his candidates from the dungeon for the Night's Watch, including Jaqen H'ghar...



#2 averde

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:34 AM

Meryn Trant seems like the type to kill someone after they fight back the way Syrio did. Syrio and Jaqen also seem so different from the way they talk, to their attitudes etc. It's an interesting idea and I see where people get it, I just don't see it as very likely and also at this point that wouldn't really add anything to the plot so I doubt it.

#3 corbon

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:44 AM

So...I'm pretty sure that Jaqen H'ghar is Syrio. As far as I remember it was never mentioned that Syrio was actually killed. If not, he would have been thrown in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Maybe he figured it was then time to change faces? Better to look a nameless thief rather than the guy who helped Arya Stark escape. And so then Yoren rounds up all his candidates from the dungeon for the Night's Watch, including Jaqen H'ghar...

 

sigh

At the rate of around 1/month (or double that even) there must be at least another 20+ similar threads since then.

 

Jaqen is already in the Black Cells when Ned allows Yoren to take the prisoners.

Syrio is training Arya right up until the actual coup.

So its not actually possible in terms of physical locations.

 

There is literally nothing linking Syrio, a small and old man, with Jaqen, a big, young man, except they have similar cadences and patterns in their speech due to their Nine Cities background (Syrio from Barvos and Jaqen from Lorath). Thats it.

Its like an american and a canadian both speaking badly accepted and poorly grammar-ed but comprehensible Italian in Rome. Gosh, they have the same accent (to an untrained ear), they must be the same person!

 

And last of all (at least that I can be bothered with now), note that Syrio is small and old, Jaqen is young and big. What we have seen of face-changing so far does not allow this transformation.

 

Syrio is dead, get over it.



#4 Red Warg

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:47 AM

Syrio could have easily picked up a sword or two from any of the fallen Lannister guardsmen so he wouldnt of been utterly defenseless, I just find it odd there is literally no mention of Syrio from Trant or Cersei or anybody afterwards. If Joff planted Septa Mordane's head on a spike simply for serving the Starks surely he would of done the same for Syrio regarding the circumstances? The one thing I really don't understand is how Jaqen was captured, the FM are supposed to be the greatest assassins in Planetos and I just can't buy that Jaqen was simply captured by gold cloaks and locked up unless it was intentional on his part.

 

I'm not sure, there isn't any true evidence for the theory so I suppose we will just have to wait and see..



#5 TheHouseHB

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:28 PM

If Syrio is still alive he is most likely Ser Meryn Trant. 



#6 Fanless Mace

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:44 PM

...and Hodor is a!so Dog. You never see both of them together. Oh, and spoiler alert: Clark Kent is Superman!

#7 Lord Reaver

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:50 PM

Syrio could have easily picked up a sword or two from any of the fallen Lannister guardsmen so he wouldnt of been utterly defenseless, I just find it odd there is literally no mention of Syrio from Trant or Cersei or anybody afterwards.

 

No, he couldn't.

 

And why would Trant and Cersei spend their time going on about that one guy who got killed ? The lannisters killed dozens of people, why spend your time reminiscing about one dancing master ?

 

If memory serves, Trant isn't a POV, nor is he in that many scenes after killing Syrio. It's not like we follow him around, to see if he thinks about killing Syrio.



#8 Rooseman

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

Jaqen is already in the Black Cells when Ned allows Yoren to take the prisoners.

Syrio is training Arya right up until the actual coup.

So its not actually possible in terms of physical locations.

 

This does not prove anything, since "Jaqen" is a Faceless Man and we do not know when the switch actually happened. The man in the black cells and the man who helps Arya in Harrenhal don't have to be the same person.

 

But putting that aside, when Syrio faces Meryn Trant, George makes a point of letting Arya "see what was there" as Syrio had taught her, which was a man with a broken wood stick vs. a man clad in steel from head to heel. This does seem to strongly imply that Syrio didn't survive that confrontation.



#9 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:49 PM

 The one thing I really don't understand is how Jaqen was captured, the FM are supposed to be the greatest assassins in Planetos and I just can't buy that Jaqen was simply captured by gold cloaks and locked up unless it was intentional on his part.

It could very well have been intentional.  Even if it weren't, being caught is still a concern for assassins.  They are very skilled but don't have superpowers.  Jaqen couldn't escape a locked cage without someone tossing an ax to him.  The Kindly Man ensures Arya changes her face after her kill so she isn't found by the city guards. 



#10 corbon

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:49 PM

Syrio could have easily picked up a sword or two from any of the fallen Lannister guardsmen so he wouldnt of been utterly defenseless,


Yeah, good one. Doing that while he is already inside Trant's kill zone is suicide. Not to mention it would still be a massively wrong kind of sword for a water dancer.
 

I just find it odd there is literally no mention of Syrio from Trant or Cersei or anybody afterwards. If Joff planted Septa Mordane's head on a spike simply for serving the Starks surely he would of done the same for Syrio regarding the circumstances?


Septa Mordane was only spiked in the TV series I think. Besides, she's basically the head of the Stark Household in KL in several ways, with no other senior woman there and her having directly personal responsibility for the Stark girls. I would estimate she was probably number 2 or 3 in the Household apart from Ned, outranked only by Vayon Poole and maybe Jory Cassel in some circumstances. Syrio by comparison is a household temp, nothing more than a dancing master. He's so far down the importance scale that probably no one outside the household (and not even all those in the household even know his name, let alone what he actually does.
 

The one thing I really don't understand is how Jaqen was captured, the FM are supposed to be the greatest assassins in Planetos and I just can't buy that Jaqen was simply captured by gold cloaks and locked up unless it was intentional on his part.


You are badly over-estimating the FM. They are not infallible supermen. They have one special skill that is at least partly supernatural and some specialised knowledges and skills that are not supernatural. They can make mistakes, get caught up in special events and have random accidents just the same as anyone else. Notice how carefully Arya's assination of the insurance man was planned - it was careful because she is not some superhuman with invincible skills, but a clever and well trained normal person with one special advantage (actually two in her case).

 

Jaquen could have been in the Back Cells for any number of reasons. Maybe he was forced to kill someone in an accidental incident, like a tavern brawl etc. Maybe he wanted to be there (seems very unlikely). Maybe even he simply took the wrong 'face' and was jailed for something that the previous owner of that face did. The possibiities are endless, and its only if we take a very "they are all supermen and operate without regard to secrecy or any restrictions" attitude that seems to me to be in complete opposition to what we see of them in the books, that there is any issue about him being in the cells.

It also seems to me that a FM, given what we now of them, would have the patience to wait for an opportune time to escape, rather than force the issue unnecessarily and create notice that he was more than he seemed. It would have been very easy and very ordinary to escape from the NW...
 

This does not prove anything, since "Jaqen" is a Faceless Man and we do not know when the switch actually happened. The man in the black cells and the man who helps Arya in Harrenhal don't have to be the same person.


Both the black cells and the caged cart are carefully accounted for though. There is never an opportunity for an additional person to get in, change faces, and get rid of the excess body.
 

But putting that aside, when Syrio faces Meryn Trant, George makes a point of letting Arya "see what was there" as Syrio had taught her, which was a man with a broken wood stick vs. a man clad in steel from head to heel. This does seem to strongly imply that Syrio didn't survive that confrontation.


Indeed.


Edited by corbon, 23 February 2014 - 10:50 PM.


#11 BitsOfBrains

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:12 AM

I chose to believe Syrio is alive despite the evidence to the contrary.



#12 Errant Bard

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:30 AM

Syrio could have easily picked up a sword or two from any of the fallen Lannister guardsmen so he wouldnt of been utterly defenseless

Consider this: during the short lapse of time Arya watched him, not only did he not pick up a sword, but he also was forced to parry a blow with his stick, losing the stick in the process. Despite his bravado, he's not in a position to do anything else. You overrate Syrio.

... Which is another point: faceless men are assassins, they are not people who devoted their life to martial art training. Having Syrio being a top tier sworsdman is antithetical to him being a faceless man.


I just find it odd there is literally no mention of Syrio from Trant or Cersei or anybody afterwards.

There is mention of him by Cersei. Which is more than what anyone else in Ned's guard got. And almost at the same level than Arya (it's in the same paragraph) it concludes with "a great many people died that day".

If Joff planted Septa Mordane's head on a spike simply for serving the Starks surely he would of done the same for Syrio regarding the circumstances?

  • Joff does what he does to make Sansa cry, so he's not going to point at people she does not know
  • Sansa does not know Syrio: she never saw him, and she hardly describes all the heads on the spikes
  • he Lannisters probably did not put the heads of all the Stark guards on spikes: why assume Syrio should get a treatment different from Desmond or fat Tom?

The one thing I really don't understand is how Jaqen was captured, the FM are supposed to be the greatest assassins in Planetos and I just can't buy that Jaqen was simply captured by gold cloaks and locked up unless it was intentional on his part.

James Bond gets captured all the time, and it's never intentional.
We saw the FM training with Arya, would you assume she she cannot be captured? There is a difference between capturing someone you see pushing Chyswick off a wall, putting poison in a dog's meal, helping prisoners to escape, slitting a singer's throat and pushing him in a canal, failing to steal money from an insurance man... and knowing he is a FM. The former is easier than the latter, FM are not supermen, or superwomen, they are just great actors... Anyway what do you know, even superman gets captured from time to time.

This does not prove anything, since "Jaqen" is a Faceless Man and we do not know when the switch actually happened. The man in the black cells and the man who helps Arya in Harrenhal don't have to be the same person.

While this is true, it would raise questions as to the stupidity of choosing to impersonate a flashy guy in chains, to impersonate someone else at all, or to follow Yoren only to give Arya three gifts and then piss off.

The "Jaqen is superman and is in chain only as long as he wants" crowd has the same problem: there is really no good reason for the guy to tag along voluntarily in this fashion. Some argue he had a mission at the Wall that was countermanded at Harrenhal, but then they invalidate the link they want to make between Syrio and Jaqen: Arya is then of no importance and they cannot explain why a FM taught a little girl in KL, or why he offers her the deaths.

#13 Jon Weirgaryen

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:30 AM

Just this creepy tidbit:

 

Septa Mordane was only spiked in the TV series I think.

 

In AGoT 67 Sansa VI - the last Sansa chapter we see spiked Septa Mordane briefly:
 

"Why did you kill her?" she asked. "She was godsworn . . ."

 

"She was a traitor." Joffrey looked pouty; somehow she was upsetting him. "You haven't said what you mean to give me for my name day. Maybe I should give you something instead, would you like that?"

 

"If it please you, my lord," Sansa said.

 

When he smiled, she knew he was mocking her. "Your brother is a traitor too, you know." He turned Septa Mordane's head back around. "I remember your brother from Winterfell. My dog called him the lord of the wooden sword. Didn't you, dog?"

 

"Did I?" the Hound replied. "I don't recall."



#14 Red Warg

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:34 AM

 

No, he couldn't.

 

 

 

Yeah, good one. Doing that while he is already inside Trant's kill zone is suicide. Not to mention it would still be a massively wrong kind of sword for a water dancer.

 

Did he not pick up the helm of a fallen Red cloak whilst being attacked by 3 of them at the same time to deflect a blow? Whatever you say I still believe he could have simply stooped to the ground to pick up a sword.

 

 
Septa Mordane was only spiked in the TV series I think
 
No she was also there in the novels.
 
You are badly over-estimating the FM. They are not infallible supermen  :uhoh: 
 
At no point did I suggest this, it just seems strange that he would have been captured by watchmen, not even soldiers.
 
If you read through my post at no point did I say Syrio IS Jaqen because it's not a theory i submit to, I was simply pointing out a few things. Some of you really need to chill out  :rolleyes:


#15 furiousmoose0

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:56 AM

Yeah, good one. Doing that while he is already inside Trant's kill zone is suicide. Not to mention it would still be a massively wrong kind of sword for a water dancer.
 

Septa Mordane was only spiked in the TV series I think. Besides, she's basically the head of the Stark Household in KL in several ways, with no other senior woman there and her having directly personal responsibility for the Stark girls. I would estimate she was probably number 2 or 3 in the Household apart from Ned, outranked only by Vayon Poole and maybe Jory Cassel in some circumstances. Syrio by comparison is a household temp, nothing more than a dancing master. He's so far down the importance scale that probably no one outside the household (and not even all those in the household even know his name, let alone what he actually does.
 

You are badly over-estimating the FM. They are not infallible supermen. They have one special skill that is at least partly supernatural and some specialised knowledges and skills that are not supernatural. They can make mistakes, get caught up in special events and have random accidents just the same as anyone else. Notice how carefully Arya's assination of the insurance man was planned - it was careful because she is not some superhuman with invincible skills, but a clever and well trained normal person with one special advantage (actually two in her case).
 
Jaquen could have been in the Back Cells for any number of reasons. Maybe he was forced to kill someone in an accidental incident, like a tavern brawl etc. Maybe he wanted to be there (seems very unlikely). Maybe even he simply took the wrong 'face' and was jailed for something that the previous owner of that face did. The possibiities are endless, and its only if we take a very "they are all supermen and operate without regard to secrecy or any restrictions" attitude that seems to me to be in complete opposition to what we see of them in the books, that there is any issue about him being in the cells.
It also seems to me that a FM, given what we now of them, would have the patience to wait for an opportune time to escape, rather than force the issue unnecessarily and create notice that he was more than he seemed. It would have been very easy and very ordinary to escape from the NW...
 

Both the black cells and the caged cart are carefully accounted for though. There is never an opportunity for an additional person to get in, change faces, and get rid of the excess body.
 

Indeed.

Completely false. There is a reason that hiring a FM would begger a high lord. Aryas first killing was her FIRST KILLING! She is still in training. Jaquen was in the black cells because thats where he wants to be. There is no way a FM takes the face of someone who could be thrown into the black cells without him knowing it. We dont know what Rorge and Biter did, but since then the only occupants have been Ned, Pycelle, and Tyrion. Not a chance a FM overlooks a transgression that obvious when taking a new face. Also Septa Mordane was definitely spike in the books. Joeffrey points it out to Sansa otherwise she wouldnt have recognized her.

#16 Neds Dead Baby

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:00 AM

I chose to believe Syrio is alive despite the evidence to the contrary.

There's no evidence pointing either way. If you assume Syrio died just because he was in a crummy situation, you should assume Benjen is dead too.

 

It just blows my mind how, for whatever reason, people are SO quickly to conclude that Syrio has to be dead. People will be posting in a Kingsguard thread talking about how weak Trant is, and how he's not a special swordsman. Then in a thread about Syrio people will use the fact that Trant is a master swordsman of the KG to defend their theory that Syrio is dead. I'm sorry, but if you think Meryn Trant is ANY match for the greatest fighter in Bravos, regardless of weapons, you're a fool.



#17 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:14 AM

There's no evidence pointing either way. If you assume Syrio died just because he was in a crummy situation, you should assume Benjen is dead too.

 

It just blows my mind how, for whatever reason, people are SO quickly to conclude that Syrio has to be dead. People will be posting in a Kingsguard thread talking about how weak Trant is, and how he's not a special swordsman. Then in a thread about Syrio people will use the fact that Trant is a master swordsman of the KG to defend their theory that Syrio is dead. I'm sorry, but if you think Meryn Trant is ANY match for the greatest fighter in Bravos, regardless of weapons, you're a fool.

You can't really compare Benjen and Syrio because the way they disappeared was different.  Syrio is more comparable to the way Ned left the scene. 

 

I can't speak for waht is said in other threads because I don't read "who's sword is bigger" threads, but there isn't really any evidence that Meryn is physically weak.  He's a pretty capable KG, he does reasonably well in tourneys, he holds his own during a riot, etc.  Syrio explicitly stated that he wasn't the greatest fighter in Braavos.  He said others were faster, younger and stronger.  He was good because he 'looked with his eyes'.  Syrio was unarmed and unarmored against a a pretty capable armed and armored soldier.  You'd be a fool to think that he could win with just his hands and bald head as a weapon. 


Edited by Dr. Pepper, 24 February 2014 - 10:15 AM.


#18 RumHam

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:17 AM

You can't really compare Benjen and Syrio because the way they disappeared was different.  Syrio is more comparable to the way Ned left the scene. 

 

I can't speak for waht is said in other threads because I don't read "who's sword is bigger" threads, but there isn't really any evidence that Meryn is physically weak.  He's a pretty capable KG, he does reasonably well in tourneys, he holds his own during a riot, etc.  Syrio explicitly stated that he wasn't the greatest fighter in Braavos.  He said others were faster, younger and stronger.  He was good because he 'looked with his eyes'.  Syrio was unarmed and unarmored against a a pretty capable armed and armored soldier.  You'd be a fool to think that he could win with just his hands and bald head as a weapon. 

 

Also if Syrio's plan was to grab a sword and take out Meryn, why didn't he do it and then try to help Arya get to safety?  He tells her to run because he knows he'd fucked and she might at least have time to get away.



#19 corbon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:22 AM

Completely false. There is a reason that hiring a FM would begger a high lord.


Yeah, because they always get their man and no one knows much about them. Not because they are infallible supermen.
 

Aryas first killing was her FIRST KILLING! She is still in training.


Yes, and? We've still seen nothing superhuman from FM except changing faces - and only faces, not full bodies.
 

Jaquen was in the black cells because thats where he wants to be.


You know this how? Funny how it doesn't make any sense and how he end up going in the opposite direction of his current task while trapped in a cage.
 

There is no way a FM takes the face of someone who could be thrown into the black cells without him knowing it.


Because they always know every single detail of the whole life of the person whose face they are using? Even when they don't actually have a real 'face' transplanted the way Arya did?
Like Jaqen couldn't have just borrowed a semi-random face of a westerosi while in Bravos and then found himself arrested on sight in KL?
 

We dont know what Rorge and Biter did, but since then the only occupants have been Ned, Pycelle, and Tyrion. Not a chance a FM overlooks a transgression that obvious when taking a new face.


What are you talking about?
 

Also Septa Mordane was definitely spike in the books. Joeffrey points it out to Sansa otherwise she wouldnt have recognized her.


Yes, I wasn't sure and indicated so with an 'I think', and had that detail wrong. Doesn't change the rest of what I pointed out though. Speta Mordane was a big cheese in the Stark Household in KL and Syrio Forel a very minor cheese indeed.
 

You'd be a fool to think that he could win with just his hands and bald head as a weapon.


No no, apparently you're a fool if you think weapons and armour have any bearing on a fight at all. :stunned: Who knew???