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Ned doesn't like killing children, so why would he take Theon ?


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45 replies to this topic

#1 Gneisenau

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:14 PM

Knowing that he might have to kill him if necessary.



#2 MasterJack

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:15 PM

Duty over personal feelings?



#3 Stannis-the-Mannis

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:22 PM

Well he did it to spare Theon from being killed right then and there, didn't he? He must've judged the risk that Balon would make further trouble low.



#4 Gneisenau

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:27 PM

Duty over personal feelings?

 

Of course Dany was a threat to Robert's claim, and yet Ned didn't want to kill her.



#5 bpsae325

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:28 PM

The difference is Theon is a hostage for his fathers behavior, Ned was against killing children for no reason or no "honorable" reasons.



#6 Boarsbane

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:29 PM

Well he did it to spare Theon from being killed right then and there, didn't he? He must've judged the risk that Balon would make further trouble low.


Doubt it, Robert even spared Balon who instigated the entire rebellion, why would he kill an innocent child and not punish the person directly responsible?

#7 bpsae325

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:30 PM

 

Of course Dany was a threat to Robert's claim, and yet Ned didn't want to kill her.

Ned believes enemies should be killed in battle, not assassinated. 



#8 Lord Reaver

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:33 PM

Ned has no compunctions against killing people, as long as it's done "honourably". He chops Will's head off without batting an eye.

 

Taking Theon hostage against his father's rebellion apparently satisfies Ned's code, and thus he has no problem doing so. And I would argue, he'd have no problem killing Theon if it came to that.



#9 mambru

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:38 PM

Ned has no compunctions against killing people, as long as it's done "honourably". He chops Will's head off without batting an eye.

 

 

But is it an "honorable" act to kill an innocent child - which is what Theon absolutely would be if Ned had to execute him for something his father did?



#10 bpsae325

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:49 PM

 

But is it an "honorable" act to kill an innocent child - which is what Theon absolutely would be if Ned had to execute him for something his father did?

Its a hard knock life in Westeros, Theon is at the mercy of his fathers honor, who vowed not to raise up in rebellion against Robert again.



#11 mankytoes

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:54 PM

 

But is it an "honorable" act to kill an innocent child - which is what Theon absolutely would be if Ned had to execute him for something his father did?

 

This is where Westeros tradition seriously conflicts with our enlightenment values. It is honourable in Westeros, yes. Honour isn't ethics. Killing someone for deserting the Nights Watch (even those who've volunteered!) is extremely harsh too, but Ned isn't thinking about that, he's doing what tradition dictates he must do.



#12 The Fresh PtwP

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:59 PM

I don't think Ned would've done it. My personal belief is that Ned would've sent Theon to the wall in secret removing Balon's heir, strengthening the Wall and Theon lives. Win, win, win.

#13 mambru

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:02 PM

 

This is where Westeros tradition seriously conflicts with our enlightenment values. It is honourable in Westeros, yes. Honour isn't ethics. Killing someone for deserting the Nights Watch (even those who've volunteered!) is extremely harsh too, but Ned isn't thinking about that, he's doing what tradition dictates he must do.

In that case, why wasn't it Ned's "honorable" duty as Hand of the King to arrest Cersei for treason (since that's what the Queen's adultery is?) Why did he let his mere consideration for "innocent children" stop him in one case, and NOT let it stop him in Theon's case?



#14 WeddinGuest

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:04 PM

I'm somewhat undecided on this but (1) Ned is a hypocrite and for some reason was willing to accept Theon's death but not Dany's or (2) He didn't really mean to make good on the implied threat, making him not a hypocrite.

What I can definitely state is that (not that it matters that much to the argument), Ned only executed Will in the show. In the books, he executed the much older Gared. But that's somewhat balanced out by how Will isn't presented as "half-mad" like Gared was, he states "I know I'm a deserter" and though he does state "I saw the White Walkers" he doesn't ask for mercy because of that. If anything the show version seemed to paint the execution in a much better light than the Gared one.

ETA: Didn't see mambru's point about Cersei, but that's true too about him shirking his duty to arrest her for treason but actually tipping her off and giving her a chance to escape, that's pretty close to a police officer catching a thief red-handed then letting her go because she says "my kids are home alone, if you arrest me they'll starve". A real cop wouldn't be able to get away with such behavior (likely the perp would still be arrested and CPS called to find someone to take the kids in).

Now, I assume Ned thought he could later explain and smooth things over with Robert, but I get the feeling Robert might actually be MORE angry at Ned for sparing Joff and his sibs, than at Ned for sparing Theon.

Edited by WeddinGuest, 12 March 2014 - 09:09 PM.


#15 The Broke Howard Hughes

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:04 PM

I agree....Duty

Ned doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who enjoys having that sort of responsibility but he takes it seriously.

#16 ARYa_Nym

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:10 PM

He would. He also sympathized with Jamie and said maybe he would have done the same to protect his children although Jamie didn't do it to protect his children.

 

There was a video posted in a Theon thread years ago but I never could remember which one. Anyways, GRRM explains Theon's situation and says Ned was prepared to do what he had to. I think the book supports that since Theon said that Ned was cold to him. He kept his distance. He did not want emotional attachment to a child he might have to kill.

 

Honor and good morals aren't synonymous. They can align or be in conflict.



#17 Cubarey

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:12 PM

You forget that one of the things that "fostering" children (in this case as a hostage) is it indoctrinates the child with the values of the foster parent. Moreover, it opens up the opertunity for alliance building through marriage. A Theon Sansa union would not have seen as unlikely when Theon was taken. Even if not Sansa then Arya or another high born Northern lady would serve the purpose.

 

 

" Why did he let his mere consideration for "innocent children" stop him in one case, and NOT let it stop him in Theon's case?"

 

He never faced the situation with Theon. We can theorize about what he would of done but it's uncertain at best whether he would have actually killed Theon.


Edited by Cubarey, 12 March 2014 - 09:15 PM.


#18 Minsc

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:13 PM

There was a video posted in a Theon thread years ago but I never could remember which one. Anyways, GRRM explains Theon's situation and says Ned was prepared to do what he had to. I think the book supports that since Theon said that Ned was cold to him. He kept his distance. He did not want emotional attachment to a child he might have to kill.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ADR39E0pxzs

 

Is that the video?



#19 The Mad Wolf

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:15 PM

Ned ever so honorable. But honor over duty? I feel he knew taking a hostage was the only way to quiet the Ironborn

#20 Lord Reaver

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:16 PM

You forget that one of the things that "fostering" children (in this case as a hostage) is it indoctrinates the child with the values of the foster parent. Moreover, it opens up the opertunity for alliance building through marriage. A Theon Sansa union would not have seen as unlikely when Theon was taken. Even if not Sansa then Arya or another high born Northern lady would serve the purpose.

 

Only Theon is way past marrying age in the books (19, Robb marries at what, 16 going on 17?). If Ned had any intention towards this, you'd think there would at least be some mention of it, if not outright plans or offers being discussed. Instead, there's nothing. Not a word.