Did Dareon deserve to die?

[Snows Queen]

Him being innocent of his original crime (rape) has nothing to do with his death. He died for being a deserter. There is no doubt he deserted the Night's Watch and the punishment for deserting the Night's Watch is death. As to Arya handing out the punishment, imo, she has every right to. Not just as a Stark or a Lord's daughter, but as a Westerosi. Deserters are to be captured (or killed) by anyone who finds them. Some people prefer to capture the criminal and take them to a Lord for the King's Justice to be punished. If a person kills a deserter they are not then charged with murder.

[MyaStoned]

Arya knows that House Stark is not in power anymore, thus she has no legal or executive powers of any kind, even if the rest of her family is dead. Nobody ever put her in charge of anything, nor did she claim any title for herself. She never thought she has a legal right to execute anyone. Whether Joff or Tommen are "legal kings", whatever that means, is irrelevant.

I know it's a mistake to reply to trolls, but no. Starks are still legally in power, NW rules are still legally in play, and Arya legally kills a deserter.

My contention is it doesn't matter. Either Joffrey is, and he has appointed another Warden, or he is not, and no new Warden has been appointed. Either way, none of thes alternatives includes Arya Stark being named Warden of the North.

(AGOT ch. 12):

"And if by some mischance he does, we will throw him back into the sea. Once you choose a new Warden of the East—"

The king groaned. "For the last time, I will not name the Arryn boy Warden. I know the boy is your nephew, but with Targaryens climbing in bed with Dothraki, I would be mad to rest one quarter of the realm on the shoulders of a sickly child."

It's a formality. "The Arryns have always been..." Again, is it your contention that for however many generations, each Arryn was independently - that is, without inheritance being involved - named Warden of the East? That would indeed be a miracle. It's obviously inherited.

You're also making an assumption that only the Warden of - whatever region - has a right/duty to kill a NW deserters. No textual basis for that.

[JesterX]

It's a formality. "The Arryns have always been..." Again, is it your contention that for however many generations, each Arryn was independently - that is, without inheritance being involved - named Warden of the East? That would indeed be a miracle. It's obviously inherited.

How is it "obviously inherited" if Robert (rightful KING, mind you) directly states that he will not APPOINT someone to the post? Even if the rightful heir receiving the title is only a formality, there are many cases where formalities MUST be observed. It's only a formality that one must take an id pic in order to get a drivers license, but without taking the pic, you don't get the license. And in this case, without a "formal" appointment from the King, you don't get the title.

[David Selig]

I know it's a mistake to reply to trolls, but no. Starks are still legally in power, NW rules are still legally in play, and Arya legally kills a deserter.

No, they are not in power. They rebelled, lost and were attained. None of the other claimants have restored them in power either.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

So, laws shouldn't apply when others wouldn't hear about it?

Weird logic.

Law is a law, he was going to desert, it was quite clear. Doesn't matter "what he would have done", what matters is what he said and doing....which was deserting.

"Law is a law" is a very dangerous philosophy. It was used to defend everything from slavery to the banning of females from surgical specialties, to the imprisonment of 'blasphemers' by the Catholic church. A law may be a law, but that doesn't make it morally right, or mean it shouldn't be changed, or that someone 'deserves' what they get based on that law. Far from it, actually. The law may be death for desertion, but many of the brothers were forced to join the Night's Watch, some of them for petty crimes like stealing food, and some of them for no crime at all [like Pyp, who just was the victim of a pedophile lord]. So, do all of them deserve death for desertion, since they were basically forced into that contract unfairly? No, of course not. The unfortunate thing about laws is that they aren't always right, and certainly aren't always moral. Much less do they always dictate what is 'deserved'.

[JesterX]

No, they are not in power. They rebelled, lost and were attained. None of the other claimants have restored them in power either.

Also, I love how a board member with less than 200 posts can call another member with over 7.000 posts a "troll". I've encountered this phenomena before in other forums. It seems a "troll" is anyone who doesn't agree with the person.

[Dany Girl]

How is it "obviously inherited" if Robert (rightful KING, mind you) directly states that he will not APPOINT someone to the post? Even if the rightful heir receiving the title is only a formality, there are many cases where formalities MUST be observed. It's only a formality that one must take an id pic in order to get a drivers license, but without taking the pic, you don't get the license. And in this case, without a "formal" appointment from the King, you don't get the title.

I believe the Warden title is generally inherited except in extreme cases, such as a sickly 7 year old being appointed when it looks like war is coming. I believe Robert thought they would be fighting against Visaerys and Dany with the Dothraki, and correctly decided that Robin would be a poor warden at that time. He was correct in believing he would need a strong leader he could trust to take over the East during war times.

With that though, I also believe if Jon Arryn hadn't died when he did, and Robin had the chance to grow to adult hood as ward of a strong loyal leader, I don't think he would have been passed over as Warden. He also likely would have received the title back eventually, as it has apparently always been held by his family, just not while a child and not until he'd proven he was worthy.

Starks have always been Wardens as well, and although they are not currently, Tywin fully planned to name Tyrion's son Warden as well as Lord Paramount when the time came.

Also, no, currently Arya is not Warden, Lady of WF or LP of the North. She is an assassin in training and has killed quite a few people other than Dareon though. This doesn't grant her the "right" to kill Dareon, but since she has no means so ship him back to Westeros for judgement and punishment, I just don't particularly care she did it. He was unequivocally guilty of desertion, which has an automatic death sentence. Anything that happened prior to his vows is not relevant because being unjustly sent to the Wall does not grant you the right to run away. If it did, there would be hundreds of deserters. It's a sucky punishment for someone who's potentially innocence, but it's a better alternative to dying or being gelded, which is what would have otherwise happened, because Westeros has crap justice, and Lords do what they like, regardless of actual guilt.

[The Golden Wolf]

the one thing that makes Arya killing Dareon outright murder is that she doesn't declare that she is carrying out the King's Justice before killing him she just ups and coldly murders him. Even the Crow Ned killed got to say a few words and Ned pronounced his sentence before witnesses before carrying it out.

[Lord Reaver]

I know it's a mistake to reply to trolls, but no.

Hilarious. Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

It's a formality. "The Arryns have always been..." Again, is it your contention that for however many generations, each Arryn was independently - that is, without inheritance being involved - named Warden of the East? That would indeed be a miracle. It's obviously inherited.

Of course it's a formality. Things have to be made formal, otherwise nobody would accept the Warden as such. What it is not is empty formality, which is what I think you are insinuating.

Jaime is Warden of the East, there can be no doubt. Ned reacts in a way that indicates that Jaime will in fact have that authority. That means the formality is not empty. Jaime is appointed Warden of the East.

Of course things can be appointed to the same family for however long without necessarily being inherited. All it requires is staying in position and in the good graces of the monarch. Lord Great Chamberlain of England is one such title. Members of the de Vere family was appointed such from 1133 to 1626, when it was appointed to earl Robert Bertie. There are numerous other historical examples.

You're also making an assumption that only the Warden of - whatever region - has a right/duty to kill a NW deserters. No textual basis for that.

No textual basis other than the parts I've already quoted for you, which you choose to ignore you mean.

This is pointless.

[Sullen]

The idea that Ned's execution was legal and he was a legally convicted traitor is rich. As book readers we know what Ned knew - that Joffrey was not legally the king. Besides that, Ned had the legal order from the previous king, which Cersei and Joff ignored. Ned is never LEGALLY guilty of anything. Which is why there's that whole war thing, and all those books. Cersei and Joffrey tear up the law to steal the throne, after which anything goes. Not sure how a reader could miss that.

Robert declared Joffrey his heir in his last words (which Ned proceeded to falsify).

He was the legal King, and would have stayed it until Stannis provided proof of Joffrey's bastardy. (Which he never did)

Joffrey, and then Tommen, is the legal King of Westeros, not Stannis despite all his claims.

[Lykos]

Though I find this bickering about the legality of killing a suspected Night´s Watch deserter by an exiled lord´s daughter a bit tiring, the question wether there is the equivalent of being "Vogelfrei“ in Westeros is interesting, but I feel it´s mostly irrelevant regarding the question wether Dareon deserved to die.

Personally I don´t even think Gared deserved to die, but I understand the reasoning behind his execution and think Gared accepted this sentence (I think the fear that Jon noticed in him was induced by the horror that made him flee in the first place. He´d rather be dead south of the Wall than undead.)

I think Martin intended the reader to question Arya´s motives and that´s why there are so many possible reasons to explain or even „justify“ the killing as well as condemning it as well as hinting at negative consequences for Arya and lastly there even is some ambiguity wether Arya did kill Dareon.

We are given Sam´s desperately frustrated thoughts on Dareon, who managed to find silver for wine and whores but did little to help their task. After Sam is saved by Arya from two Bravos he finds Dareon at the Happy Port offering to buy him a whore.

Feast, Samwell III

… I still have coin enough, I think.''

Coin that might have bought us food, Sam thought, coin that might have bought wood, so Maester Aemon could keep warm.

"What have you done? You can't marry. You said the words, the same as me. They could have vour head for this."

"We're only wed for this one night. Slayer. Even in Westeros no one takes your head for that. Haven't you ever gone to Mole's Town to dig for buried treasure?"

"No." Sam reddened. "I would never. .

"What about your wildling wench? You must have fucked her a time or three. All those nights in the woods, huddled togetlier under your cloak, don't you tell me that you never stuck it in her." He waved a hand toward a chair. "Sit down.

Slayer. Have a cup of wine. Have a whore. Have both."

Sam did not want a cup of wine. "You promised to come back before the gloaming. To bring back wine and food."

"Is this how you killed that Other? Scolding him to death?" Dareon laughed.

"She's my wife, not you. If you will not drink to my marriage, go away."

"Come with me, said Sam. "Maester Aemon's woken up and wants to hear about these dragons. Hes talking about bleeding stars and white shadows and dreams and . . . if we could find out more about these dragons, it might help give him ease. Help me."

"On the morrow. Not on my wedding night."

<snip>

Sam blocked his way. "You promised, Dareon. You said the words. You're supposed to be my brother."

"In Westeros. Does this look like Westeros to you?"

"Maester Aemon —"

" — is dying. That stripey healer you wasted all our silver on said as much."

Dareon's mouth had turned hard. "Have a girl or go away, Sam. You re ruining my wedding."

"Ill go." said Sam. "but you'll come with me."

"No. I'm done with you. I'm done with black." Dareon tore his cloak off his naked bride and tossed it in Sam's face. "Here. Throw that rag on the old man. it may keep him a little warmer. I shan't be needing it. I'll be clad in velvet soon. Next year I'll be wearing furs and eating—"

Sam hit him.

Of course I felt frustrated with Dareon as well, but I was quite satisfied with Sam beating him up a little for the broken promise to return at dusk and refusing to return before the morning. Sam doesn´t think of any further retribution for Dareon after he is saved Xhondo and Quhuru Mo enabled him to continue his task. He just thinks that if he sleeps with Gilly, he´ll be no better than Dareon.

Also this scene made me think of how Sam meant to stop Jon and how I wondered along with Jon what Robb would do and I wasn´t certain that Robb wouldn´t have his head or send him back to keep watch from inside the Wall.

I´m certain however that Arya would not have killed Jon.

Arya had a happy day as Cat of the Canals at the Ragman´s Harbour until she heard news from Westeros on the Brazen Monkey.

Feast, Cat of the Canals

The lady of the Vale was her own mother's sister.

"Lady Lysa," she said, "is she . . . ?"

"... dead?'" finished the freckled boy whose head was full of courtesans."Aye. Murdered by her own singer."

"Oh." It's nought to me. Cat of the Canals never had an aunt.

Next Arya meets Tagganaro, a leader of thieves that probably would be send to the Wall, while their employees might get away with having some fingers cut. Should we compare the ill chosen whore to Arya?

Cat was sad. She liked Little Narbo. even if he was a thief.

Arya thinks of how Narbo could have a second chance when she learns that the mummers are short of oarsmen.

The day was nearly done by the time Cat reached the Happy Port.

<snip>

"Quence finally came on Allaquo abed with Sloey. They went at one another with mummer swords, and both of them have left us. We'll only be five drunken oarsmen tonight, it would seem."

<snip>

"Little Narbo wants to be an oarsman," Cat told them. "If you got him, you'd have six."

"You had best go see Merry," Joss told her. "You know how sour she gets without her oysters."

It´s very interesting to see when Arya´s mood really changes.

When Cat slipped inside the brothel, though, she found Merry sitting in the common room with her eyes shut, listening to Dareon play his woodharp. Yna was there too, braiding Lanna's fine long golden hair. Another stupid love song. Lanna was always begging the singer to play her stupid love songs. She was the youngest of the whores, only ten-and-four. Merry asked three times as much for her as for any of the other girls. Cat knew.

Remember that Red Roggo, another criminal, taught Arya how to use a finger knife whilst waiting for Lanna to come free.

It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna as his fingers danced across the harp strings. The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had Iransformcd himself into a peacock. Today he wore a plush purple cloak lined with vair, a striped white-and-lilac tunic, and the parti-colored breeches of a bravo. but he owned a silken cloak as well, and one made of burgundy velvet that was lined with cloth-of-gold. The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness, he had announced.

Arya had thrown all her possessions in the Canal too, to become No One. Is Arya still daughter of Lord Stark, is Dareon still a brother of the Night´s Watch?

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince.

That in all likelyhood would have been Arya´s father and his friends, since the song was probably inspired by Ashara Dayne´s death.

And the singer should be on the Wall.

Well, he should be on the way to Old Town recruiting men for the Watch.

When Dareon had first appeared at the Happy Port. Arya had almost asked if he would take her with him back to Eastwatch, until she heard him telling Bethany that he was never going back.

"Hard beds, salt cod, and endless watches, that's the Wall," he'd said. "Besides, there's no one half as pretty as you at Eastwatch. How could I ever leave you?''

He had said the same thing to Lanna, Cat had heard, and to one of the whores at the Cattery, and even to the Nightingale the night he played at the House of Seven Lamps.

Dareon seems to be deserving of a Silver Dagger.

I wish I had been here the night the fat one hit him. Merry's whores still laughed about that. Yna said the fat boy had gone red as a beet every time she touched him, but when he started trouble Merry had him dragged outside and thrown in the canal.

Maybe Arya should have killed Merry, she endangered the mission Jon intended for Sam´s party just as much as Dareon did. ;)

Cat was thinking about the fat boy. remembering how she had saved him from Terro and Orbelo. when the Sailor's Wife appeared beside her.

"He sings a pretty song," she murmured softly, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. "The gods must have loved him to give him such a voice, and that fair face as well."

He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya, but she did not say it.

Is Arya a god, that she is to decide who is worthy to live and who to die?

"What happened to your brother?" Cat asked. "The fat one. Did he ever find a ship to Oldtown? He said he was supposed to sail on the Lady Ushanora."

"We all were. Lord Snow's command. I told Sam, leave the old man, but the fat fool would not listen." The last light of the setting sun shone in his hair.

"Well, it's too late now."

"Just so." said Cat as they stepped into the gloom of a twisty little alley.

I feel there is some remorse in Dareon´s last words, but I don´t seriously think he could have been persuaded to pick up the mission of recruiting.

On the other hand, what good does it do to kill him at this point? Is Arya intending to send his boots back to the Wall to be displayed as a warning?

It´s also intriguing to look at the circumstances when Arya confesses to have killed Dareon. First she has another lesson in lying.

Arya considered her warily. "Is that true?"

"There is truth in it."

"And lies as well?"

"There is an untruth, and an exaggeration."

She had been watching the waifs face the whole time she told her story, but the other girl had shown her no signs.

"The Many-Faced God took two-thirds of your father's wealth, not all."

"Just so. That was my exaggeration."

Arya grinned, realized she was grinning, and gave her cheek a pinch. Rule your face, she told herself. My smile is my servant, he should come at my command.

"What part was the lie?"

"No part. I lied about the lie."

"Did you? Or are you lying now?"

But before the waif could answer, the kindly man stepped into the chamber, smiling. "You have returned to us."

"The moon is black."

"It is. What three new things do you know, tiiat you did not know when last you left us?"

I know thirty new things, she almost said. "Three of Little Narbo's fingers will not bend. He means to be an oarsman."

"It is good to know this. And what else?"

She thought back on her day. "Quence and Allaquo had a fight and left the Ship, but I think that they'll come back."

"Do you only think, or do you know?"

"I only think," she had to confess, even though she was certain of it. Mummers had to eat the same as other men, and Quence and Allaquo were not good enough for the Blue Lantern.

"Just so." said the kindly man. "And the third thing?"

This time she did not hesitate. "Dareon is dead. The black singer who was sleeping at the Happy Port. He was really a deserter from the Night's Watch. Someone slit his throat and pushed him into a canal, but they kept his boots.

"Good boots are hard lo find."

"Just so." She tried to keep her face still.

"Who could have done this thing, I wonder?"

"Arya of House Stark." She watched his eyes, his mouth, the muscles of his jaw.

"That girl? I thought she had left Braavos. Who are you?" No one.

What if Lanna decides to pray at the House of Black and White for someone´s death instead of throwing herself from a tower?

I was always very irritated by the triumph I sensed in Arya´s revelation of her murder, but this triumph could just as easily come as a result of a well played lying game.

I think Arya mislead the kindly man (and the reader) with a halftruth about her reasons for killing Dareon. Of course it could be just my desperate attempt to keep on liking my little wild girl. When she confirms killing a deserter of the Night´s Watch later in Dance we should consider her inner justifications for killing her first assignment.

Dance, The Ugly Little Girl

He has lived too long, she tried to tell herself. Why should he have so many years when my father had so few? But Cat of the Canals had no father, so she kept that thought to herself.

<snip>

He scowled at her and went on past, sloshing through a puddle. The splash wet her feet. He has no courtesy, she thought, watching him go. His face is hard and mean. The old man’s nose was pinched and sharp, his lips thin, his eyes small and close-set. His hair had gone to grey, but the little pointed beard at the end of his chin was still black. Cat thought it must be dyed and wondered why he had not dyed his hair as well. One of his shoulders was higher than the other, giving him a crooked cast.

“He is an evil man,” she announced that evening when she returned to the House of Black and White. “His lips are cruel, his eyes are mean, and he has a villain’s beard.”

The kindly man chuckled. “He is a man like any other, with light in him and darkness. It is not for you to judge him.”

That gave her pause. “Have the gods judged him?” “Some gods, mayhaps. What are gods for if not to sit in judgment over men? The Many-Faced God does not weigh men’s souls, however. He gives his gift to the best of men as he gives it to the worst. Elsewise the good would live forever.”

No courtesy! Ass´s pizzle! A villain´s beard? Camel´s cunt! That gives me pause.

[MyaStoned]

Also, I love how a board member with less than 200 posts can call another member with over 7.000 posts a "troll". I've encountered this phenomena before in other forums. It seems a "troll" is anyone who doesn't agree with the person.

Since you have fewer than 200 posts, presumably, using your own values, you're in no position to make this observation or judge. David Selig or whatever his name is could have 10,000,000 posts, he would be no less a troll.

[Light a wight tonight]

The question isn't if Arya had a right to kill/execute/murder Dareon but if he deserved to die.

It's obvious that there's no consensus of opinion on Arya's legal status as the agent of his death. I'd say that as Parris Martin's favorite character she has the right to do anything she damn well pleases, and that carries as much weight as any legalistic bloviating on the (unwritten as far as we know) Westerosi legal code, which is probably based on the Golden Rule: "The guy with the gold makes the rules".

[MyaStoned]

Robert declared Joffrey his heir in his last words (which Ned proceeded to falsify).

He was the legal King, and would have stayed it until Stannis provided proof of Joffrey's bastardy. (Which he never did)

Joffrey, and then Tommen, is the legal King of Westeros, not Stannis despite all his claims.

You are wrong. You know about Ned 'falsifying' it only because you've read the book - but having read the same book, you know that Robert did so under false pretenses and that Stannis is legally the heir.

It's amazing the logical contortions people on here will undergo to support or disagree with various things.

[MyaStoned]

No textual basis other than the parts I've already quoted for you, which you choose to ignore you mean.

This is pointless.

You never posted anything from the books that indicated that only a Warden of a given region has the right/duty to execute a NW deserter.

[Cas Stark]

I would say that he deserved to die, if not for being a deserter, then for refusing to help Sam, when it's obvious that he's able to make good money as a singer, but he won't help them, and doesn't seem to care much that he's leaving them in the lurch.

He might be morally, but not legally, absolved from deserting if it's true he was innocent of any crime and wrongly sent to the wall, but he can't be absolved from his behavior in Braavos, where to compound the crime of desertion, he won't help his brothers, when he easily could have.

[JesterX]

Since you have fewer than 200 posts, presumably, using your own values, you're in no position to make this observation or judge. David Selig or whatever his name is could have 10,000,000 posts, he would be no less a troll.

If you define "troll" as someone who disagrees with you, then I guess you're right, he is. However, as someone who has a broader definition of the word, he is not.

[OldGriff]

I addressed both the moral and legal perspectives. Morally, he had every right to escape (and the question of "deserving" a punishment is in large part a moral one). Legally, he was murdered.

You're operating from the assumption that Dareon was innocent of his crime. Sorry but his insistence that he was innocent is not enough for me. It's a moot point really when you apply the morals of the ASOIAF world. He swore a vow and intended on deserting his sworn brothers. That alone to me is enough to warrant a death sentence. It's a cruel world.

[Cas Stark]

I'm willing to credit he is innocent of the crime that sent him to the wall, he's good looking, a good singer and has a way with the ladies, even in Braavos, so it seems more likely than not that he seduced the lord's daughter than that he was raping her.

I think his back story is there precisely to make Arya's decision less cut and dried, if we knew he was a true criminal and a deserter and had betrayed Sam...many fewer people would express sympathy for him, I suspect.

[JesterX]

I would say that he deserved to die, if not for being a deserter, then for refusing to help Sam, when it's obvious that he's able to make good money as a singer, but he won't help them, and doesn't seem to care much that he's leaving them in the lurch.

Oh come on . . . As I said before, Dareon was under no obligation to support Sam (Gilly and the baby weren't even members of the NW, and as was said in the books, Aemon was dying anyway). For that you call the guy an asshole. It doesn't warrant the death penalty. I would find the desertion argument more credible than that one.