Heresy 108

[redriver]

Actually what Coldhands said was that no footprints does not mean that nobody was there because the WW's leave no footprints. How is that statement illogical?

And I am sorry but you determined that the Wights bring the Cold, you should not assume that everybody agrees with you.

:agree:

[wolfmaid7]

Actually what Coldhands said was that no footprints does not mean that nobody was there because the WW's leave no footprints. How is that statement illogical?

And I am sorry but you determined that the Wights bring the Cold, you should not assume that everybody agrees with you.

I disagree with you because the TEXT say otherwise,not me.Its what is shown everytime the Wights show up.We can't say only WWs when that is plainly NOT TRUE.With regards to the Wights i think Grenn had it right they bring each other,the Wights being vessels of "the cold".

The WWs emit cold as they are cold creatures,but it is not the same as what shows up with the Wights or vice versa ,the text shows that.But to ignore completely what happens with the Wights when it is as plain as they is......mind boggling.You don't have to like it,but denying it doesn't make textual evidence diappear.

"Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold "

Yes" said Sam ,but is it the cold that brings the Wights or the Wights that bring the cold?"(Sam,asos,pg.448-449).

The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought. Yet he must have dozed.......... Jon was startled to see how tall he'd grown. "Ghost, what is it?" he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fangs in a silent snarl. Has he gone mad? Jon wondered. "It's me, Ghost," he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold? (AGOT,Jon).

Unless there were WWs stuck to the celing this quote alone dismisses this premise that Wights do not bring the cold with them.

He woke suddenly in cold and dread.....The air itself seemed frozen it was so cold(p,643) Three pages later with the wight horde outside.

"He crept to the door.The air was so cold it hurt to breathe,but such a fine sweet hurt(asos,Sam,pg.646)........(one sentence later) She stood with her backs against the weirwood ,the boy in her arms Wights all around her.

Now to what CH's said:

The snow had stopped three days ago, but none of it had melted. Beneath the trees, the ground was blanketed in white, still pristine and unbroken. “No one’s here,” said Bran, bravely. “Look at the snow. There are no footprints.”

“The white walkers go lightly on the snow,” the ranger said. “You’ll find no prints to mark their passage.”

It is an illogical conclusion because CH's is making a statement based on there being no footprints in the snow and it being cold.Yes it is a fact that WWs leave no footprint,but he can't make that statement and it counts as proof because there in no way he can definitely say WWs are in the area passed by. In fact we didn't see any of them ,which indicates a scare tactic.We had that entire incident with no WWs in sight,and through the eyes of Bran in Summer and the Crow he skinchanged and flew outside in ,we know Wights were still outside the cave.But no WWs at all,

I'll go back to my joke about the cheating husband who routinley found the hairs of his wife's lovers on his bed.When he found no hairs one day he accused his wife of cheating with a bald headed guy.Now did she cheat and if so was the guy bald headed,did she remove the hairs,or she just didn't cheat.

[wolfmaid7]

Got to agree with this one.

We're told all the way through from multiple sources that its the white walkers who come with the cold or who bring the cold (and if we go with the Ice Dragon precedent its the latter) and that the wights are their thralls.

As to the burning, its destruction not a driving out of evil spirits, yes Small Paul moved after being dosed with hot coals but as I pointed out before burning things do move - screw up a piece of paper, toss it on a fire and watch how it moves.

Coldhands is different because he is not and never was a wight, but something else and most likely a Stark hence his concealing his face. As I said before thats why he concealed it when he met Sam, because the Stark features are so distinctive that Craster, who'd never claped eyes on Jon before, recognised him instantly as a Stark

I have to disagree with you here BC as indicated by the texts above and several others that woukd just make the point redundant,that is not entirely true the sources have been prooven to be not entirely credible because of what we have seen through various POV's and other characters.

As to the second point BC are you really comparing a piece of paper to an entire person Wighted or not being engulfed in flames.A person a blaze eventually falls to the ground and dies and at that point of death they don't move.The blue glow was gone so no animating force so he should have not been reacting at all.He should have drop to the ground like a stone and just burnup being already dead in the first place. Plus how can it be simply destruction when we know for a fact when Thistle gorged her eyes out the blue glow was still there in the dark of the sockets.So it is clearly something inhabiting the brain and it can be driven out by fire per Sam's statement ...The blue glow is gone.

When it comes to CH's he is dead. He may not be all blue eyed and we can theorize why that is, but this quote says a lot.

"Coldhands smelled. Dead meat, dry blood, a faint whiff of rot. And cold. Cold over all. (Bran 1 ADWD).The only things that smell this way is the Wights indicated by:

Don't you smell it?".........

"Seems to me like it smells......Well......cold .

"Your head's as wooden as your teeth," Hake told him."There's no smell to cold."

There is,thought Jon ,remembering the the night in the Lord Commander's chambers.It smells like death( Jon,ACOK,pg.514).

Gilly mumured to calm the garron down.......But the horse must have caught a whiff of the Wight's queer cold scent (Sam,ASOS,pg.645)

Animals seem to pick this up especially,and it is clear from Bran in Summer's reaction CH's smells like the Wights,which means to me at one point he was and something happened whereby he's not all killerlike but he still smells like them.

[Yield.]

I think it Redwyn,the ranger Sam reads about in CoK should be considered.He "traded with the CotF" and certainly lived a long time ago.

That's a nice catch. Do you know I actually had to go back and find that passage in order to put it into context. Here's the text:

“This,” he [sam] said reverently, “is the account of a journey from the Shadow Tower all the way to Lorn Point on the Frozen Shore, written by a ranger named Redwyn. It’s not dated, but he mentions a Dorren Stark as King in the North, so it must be from before the Conquest. Jon, they fought giants! Redwyn even traded with the children of the forest, it’s all here.” Ever so delicately, he turned pages with a finger. “He drew maps as well, see...”

Sounds like the helpful type, with the journaling of his travels and drawing of maps and he certainly is well traveled...where is Lorn Point anyway? Don't remember seeing it on the map.

[JNR]

Sounds like the helpful type, with the journaling of his travels and drawing of maps and he certainly is well traveled...where is Lorn Point anyway? Don't remember seeing it on the map.

Good question. Is it in the canonical Maps book?

I also now wonder if these handy maps Redwyn drew will play a part in the process of learning more about the Lands of Always Winter, as GRRM has suggested we soon will.

And I congratulate the Godslayer on his painstaking care with ancient books.

Ever so delicately, he turned pages with a finger.

I sometimes get the feeling if GRRM would ever give us a Sam chapter in which Sam does nothing but sit in a room and ponder what he knows, half the mysteries would be solved at a stroke.

[Yield.]

Coldhands is different because he is not and never was a wight, but something else and most likely a Stark hence his concealing his face. As I said before thats why he concealed it when he met Sam, because the Stark features are so distinctive that Craster, who'd never claped eyes on Jon before, recognised him instantly as a Stark

Not too sure about this one. He seems pretty clearly to be a wight. His nickname is based on his hands being cold and black like a wight's and he shows the physical attributes of being a wight; no need for food, warmth or sleep.

I do agree that he is something else as compared to the blue eyed wights. And I agree with his being a Stark that is the reason he is different, again mainly because he will have needed to be a skinchanger/warg in order to reclaim his body and have the autonomy to remain without the blue glow in his eyes.

Ditto of agreement on the Stark look being instantly recognisable. IIRC Ygritte pegged him as a Stark too before he corrects her that he is a Snow.

[Yield.]

I disagree with you because the TEXT say otherwise,not me.Its what is shown everytime the Wights show up.We can't say only WWs when that is plainly NOT TRUE.With regards to the Wights i think Grenn had it right they bring each other,the Wights being vessels of "the cold".

The WWs emit cold as they are cold creatures,but it is not the same as what shows up with the Wights or vice versa ,the text shows that.But to ignore completely what happens with the Wights when it is as plain as they is......mind boggling.You don't have to like it,but denying it doesn't make textual evidence diappear.

"Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold "

Yes" said Sam ,but is it the cold that brings the Wights or the Wights that bring the cold?"(Sam,asos,pg.448-449).

The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought. Yet he must have dozed.......... Jon was startled to see how tall he'd grown. "Ghost, what is it?" he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fangs in a silent snarl. Has he gone mad? Jon wondered. "It's me, Ghost," he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold? (AGOT,Jon).

Unless there were WWs stuck to the celing this quote alone dismisses this premise that Wights do not bring the cold with them.

He woke suddenly in cold and dread.....The air itself seemed frozen it was so cold(p,643) Three pages later with the wight horde outside.

"He crept to the door.The air was so cold it hurt to breathe,but such a fine sweet hurt(asos,Sam,pg.646)........(one sentence later) She stood with her backs against the weirwood ,the boy in her arms Wights all around her.

Now to what CH's said:

It is an illogical conclusion because CH's is making a statement based on there being no footprints in the snow and it being cold.Yes it is a fact that WWs leave no footprint,but he can't make that statement and it counts as proof because there in no way he can definitely say WWs are in the area passed by. In fact we didn't see any of them ,which indicates a scare tactic.We had that entire incident with no WWs in sight,and through the eyes of Bran in Summer and the Crow he skinchanged and flew outside in ,we know Wights were still outside the cave.But no WWs at all,

I'll go back to my joke about the cheating husband who routinley found the hairs of his wife's lovers on his bed.When he found no hairs one day he accused his wife of cheating with a bald headed guy.Now did she cheat and if so was the guy bald headed,did she remove the hairs,or she just didn't cheat.

Hear! Hear!

Everyone tends to dismiss the conversation Sam has with Grenn and Pip because they just don't know enough about what's going on yet. However Martin knows all and the fact that he included the passage of 'do the wights come when it's cold or does the cold come when there are wights' that completely mimics what is later written down in the annals about the Others is important. There is a clear statement here that the Cold needs to be looked at more closely. What a character or book finding says needs to be looked at with actual in book evidence not taken on faith.

[Yield.]

Good question. Is it in the canonical Maps book?

I also now wonder if these handy maps Redwyn drew will play a part in the process of learning more about the Lands of Always Winter, as GRRM has suggested we soon will.

And I congratulate the Godslayer on his painstaking care with ancient books.

I sometimes get the feeling if GRRM would ever give us a Sam chapter in which Sam does nothing but sit in a room and ponder what he knows, half the mysteries would be solved at a stroke.

And I sometimes get the feeling that Sam already has written all of this down and we are reading it.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I don't know. Sam can still be a bit of an idiot. Telling Melisandre that dragonglass has no effect on wights, for instance... when the wight was wearing a f***ing mail shirt.

(Uh, memo to brother Tarly... dragonglass has no effect on mail shirts! :rolleyes: )

.

[addicted to snow]

Actually what Coldhands said was that no footprints does not mean that nobody was there because the WW's leave no footprints. How is that statement illogical?

And I am sorry but you determined that the Wights bring the Cold, you should not assume that everybody agrees with you.

Great Post

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I don't know. Sam can still be a bit of an idiot. Telling Melisandre that dragonglass has no effect on wights, for instance... when the wight was wearing a f***ing mail shirt.

(Uh, memo to brother Tarly... dragonglass has no effect on mail shirts! :rolleyes: )

.

Nice.

Great Post

Agree.

[wolfmaid7]

Well its a good thing the texts trumps opinions.A good thing indeed.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Well its a good thing the texts trumps opinions.A good thing indeed.

I've come across a few people who would disagree...

[wolfmaid7]

I've come across a few people who would disagree...

Sad but true Ty.

[Armstark]

I disagree with you because the TEXT say otherwise,not me.Its what is shown everytime the Wights show up.We can't say only WWs when that is plainly NOT TRUE.With regards to the Wights i think Grenn had it right they bring each other,the Wights being vessels of "the cold".

The WWs emit cold as they are cold creatures,but it is not the same as what shows up with the Wights or vice versa ,the text shows that.But to ignore completely what happens with the Wights when it is as plain as they is......mind boggling.You don't have to like it,but denying it doesn't make textual evidence diappear.

Why is it not the same? You identified the wind as the major difference right? Well I believe the WW's emit the cold and it is something like a storm. The WW's are in eye of the storm where the wind stops but the storm and the cold move with them. They are responsible for the cold. I have seen nothing to prove otherwise.

I actually agree with you that it is the cold which raises the dead and you have sufficiently proved it. But you can't separate the cold from the WW's, you are saying yourself that they emit the cold.

Unless there were WWs stuck to the celing this quote alone dismisses this premise that Wights do not bring the cold with them.

Why would the WW's have to be in such a close proximity to send the cold? The whole chapter talks about cold wind rising from the north, I believe this is the work of the WW's from north of the Wall.

It is an illogical conclusion because CH's is making a statement based on there being no footprints in the snow and it being cold.Yes it is a fact that WWs leave no footprint,but he can't make that statement and it counts as proof because there in no way he can definitely say WWs are in the area passed by

Nowhere does he say that the WW's were definitely there.

Well its a good thing the texts trumps opinions.A good thing indeed.

It is your interpretation of the text, nothing more and nothing less. Other people might have other interpretations. And there are text passages which disprove parts of your interpretation you just chose to label them as unreliable. (Old Nan for example)

[Black Crow]

Nach Berlin

Weidersehein

:commie: :commie: :commie:

[Yield.]

I don't know. Sam can still be a bit of an idiot. Telling Melisandre that dragonglass has no effect on wights, for instance... when the wight was wearing a f***ing mail shirt.

(Uh, memo to brother Tarly... dragonglass has no effect on mail shirts! :rolleyes: )

.

Yep this is one of Martin's favourite techniques. He puts a character in a situation that neither proves nor disproves a possible fact and then has that character draw a conclusion. Is it wrong? Is it right? And more importantly are we the reader supposed to follow that conclusion or dispute it?

[Yield.]

Why is it not the same? You identified the wind as the major difference right? Well I believe the WW's emit the cold and it is something like a storm. The WW's are in eye of the storm where the wind stops but the storm and the cold move with them. They are responsible for the cold. I have seen nothing to prove otherwise.

I actually agree with you that it is the cold which raises the dead and you have sufficiently proved it. But you can't separate the cold from the WW's, you are saying yourself that they emit the cold.

Why would the WW's have to be in such a close proximity to send the cold? The whole chapter talks about cold wind rising from the north, I believe this is the work of the WW's from north of the Wall.

Nowhere does he say that the WW's were definitely there.

It is your interpretation of the text, nothing more and nothing less. Other people might have other interpretations. And there are text passages which disprove parts of your interpretation you just chose to label them as unreliable. (Old Nan for example)

Actually there is nothing to prove the red bolded part of your belief either. Not that you are not entitled to believe it in any way, just that it is a belief not a proven fact.

There is, in my opinion, circumstantial proof of the Cold being an independent sentient being. The two best examples being the attack of the wight Othor on Mormont and the booby trapped opening to the CotF cave mouth.

In the first case the Cold comes in on the wind and reactivates the wights. Now all fine and good to say the WW sent the Cold, but then how is it that the cold carried instructions to Othor to attack Mormont's tower and go after Mormont? If that is the case then the cold needs to be a messenger. And if it's a messenger then there needs to be a certain amount of intelligence held within the cold in order for it to do so.

In the second case we have a party of wights stationed at the mouth of the CotF cave. Again there is a large enough amount of cold that Coldhands states “Can you feel the cold? There’s something here.Where are they?” Turns out that it's the wights not the WWs. However that cold that is with the wights again is keeping them there. We see in the Dance prologue that the other wights are wandering around, probably moving south, so why are these guys sitting at a cave mouth that from the look of it is not regularly used until Bran and Co arrive. Remember they had days worth of snowfall on them and it had stopped snowing 3 days ago from when the party arrived, meaning there is a minimum of 3 days worth of no one going in or out of the place. They are stationed there and in order to be stationed the cold again must be intelligent enough to convey the purpose of their mission -- attack any who exit or enter and stay at your post, don't wander with the rest of the wights.

If you look at the situation at the Fist the wights attack the Watch, not the wildling hoard. If it's just heat signatures or the smell of life that attracts the wights why then do they go for the smaller party when they have a host of 100,000 to feast on? Because they are ordered to right? And that order needs to be conveyed and understood enough by a sentient being in order to get the wights to do as they are told.

Same is true of Tormund's party. They are never attacked full on, only nibbled at the edges. He in fact says that it is the Cold that is the problem that needs to be fought. "how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

And finally if you believe that the Cold is responsible for raising the dead then it must be smart enough to recognise a dead body as opposed to not only a live one, but one that is weak enough to turn. Because it the former case it just invades the corpse but in the latter it has to kill first. And we see with Thistle that it can be fought. She looses that fight because she was wounded and left vulnerable from Varamyr's attack on her but in healthy people it simply remains in a state of extreme low temperature. So how does it know? It needs to be able to differentiate between a vulnerable victim and a healthy person or else anyone in contact with the Cold would be actively fighting not to become a wight.

[Yield.]

Nach Berlin

Weidersehein

:commie: :commie: :commie:

Enjoy your holiday!

[wolfmaid7]

Why is it not the same? You identified the wind as the major difference right? Well I believe the WW's emit the cold and it is something like a storm. The WW's are in eye of the storm where the wind stops but the storm and the cold move with them. They are responsible for the cold. I have seen nothing to prove otherwise.

I actually agree with you that it is the cold which raises the dead and you have sufficiently proved it. But you can't separate the cold from the WW's, you are saying yourself that they emit the cold.

Why would the WW's have to be in such a close proximity to send the cold? The whole chapter talks about cold wind rising from the north, I believe this is the work of the WW's from north of the Wall.

Nowhere does he say that the WW's were definitely there.

It is your interpretation of the text, nothing more and nothing less. Other people might have other interpretations. And there are text passages which disprove parts of your interpretation you just chose to label them as unreliable. (Old Nan for example)

It's not the same because when either or is around the effects are different.

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long s able cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold. (AGOT,Prologue).

The wind sighed through the trees,driving a fine spray of snow in their faces.The cold was so bitter that Sam felt naked(ASOS,Sam,pg.251).

First off I never said WWs emit "the cold" i said they emit cold because they are cold creatures.

With the WWs we have localized cold that occurs and the wind dying down,notice even with 6wws and the cold they emit Ser Waymar was able to put up a fight .He wasn't hindered or weakened in anyway.Same with Sam and Co they were quite exhausted ,it got cold the wind died down but they are able to fight Ser Puddles.

Now lets look at the other case with Wights:

The light of the half-moon turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath.

“The air tastes sweet.”

“My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold.”

“Cold?” Val laughed lightly. “No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe.When the Others come(Jon,ADWD).

A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up how do you fights a mist crow? Shadows with teeth air so cold it hurts to breath, like a knife inside your chest you do not know, you cannot know can your sword cut cold?( ADWD,Jon Chp 58).......Many nights our fires just shiveled up and died"(ADWD,Jon chp 58).

"He crept to the door.The air was so cold it hurt to breathe,but such a fine sweet hurt(asos,Sam,pg.646).( Wight horde outside)

The wind was rising as the shadows lengthened(ASOS,Prologue,pg.11)........When the shouting died away( Oath was being said) he heard the sound of the wind picking at the ringwall.The flames shivered and swirled as if they were too cold(p.14)......Whenever he thought of her before it had only been to remember how she looked dying.What was wrong with him? He could hardly breathe.Had he gone to sleep? He had got to his knees and something wet and cold touched his nose.Chett looked up.Snow was falling (p.15).

As you can see Val's statement of what happens when the "OTHERS" come "only" matches the presence of Wights not WWs.We have seen two actual incidence when they(WWs) show up and the cold they emit does not cause respiratiory problems,its just bitter cold. This is the major difference of "The cold/Wights" and cold/WWs.( Val's and Tourmond's statement makes me believe that "Others" to them mean Wights"".There is also reports of " a wind rising" out of nowhere that is always spoken of or we the readers see.It's just nothing really to the characters.

Your belief though about what the WWs do with regards to snowstorms does not have text to back it up,but i respect that it is your belief. What the text does show as in the case of the Fist,Tourmond's crew and even Mel's vision is that the snowstorm accompanies "The Wights" only and WW's have no such juice.

For all the things Yield pointed out is reason to believe "the cold" is sentient and possibly beyond the control of the WWs. We have not seen anything that says otherwise,only what tales think,which sadly when observed now is prooving in alot of cases to be.....Tales.

Armstark,there are texts that are ambiguous and there will have several interpretions,but there are some texts as in the case of wheter or not "the cold" brings the Wights or vice versa that is so plain its not worth arguing.An arguement can be made for if "the cold" is sentiant or under the control of the WWs for sure, but that too is looking more and more like it being outside the WWs control.

Characters in this story are unreliable there is truth and untruth in what they say,but it's all about figuring out where myth ends and facts begin and i have seen more evidence that disprove the WWs involvement in a lot of myths than the other.

In fact i can count it on one hand the myths that have truth in them.One WW rode a dead horse,they are cold things,they move through the woods,can be killed by Dragon glass and...... that's all i got.This doesn't disprove anything i've said,this is true.

Per CH's statement below i stand by my previous statement,he planted the WW seed to move the group along or he is ignorant based on his statement.Which in the end was made incorrect by the fact of the Wights being there alone.

The snow had stopped three days ago, but none of it had melted. Beneath the trees, the ground was blanketed in white, still pristine and unbroken. “No one’s here,” said Bran, bravely. “Look at the snow. There are no footprints.”

“The white walkers go lightly on the snow,” the ranger said. “You’ll find no prints to mark their passage.”

Now as Yield pointed out "the cold" entity rides the wind just like:

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. We know a Wight horde was not far behind (ADWD,Prologue).

It behaves like a skinchanger but of the dead.Denying something for the sake of denying it will get us nothing.You are adamant about your belief i am am looking at valid possiblities beyond what is stated as fact.

Actually there is nothing to prove the red bolded part of your belief either. Not that you are not entitled to believe it in any way, just that it is a belief not a proven fact.

There is, in my opinion, circumstantial proof of the Cold being an independent sentient being. The two best examples being the attack of the wight Othor on Mormont and the booby trapped opening to the CotF cave mouth.

In the first case the Cold comes in on the wind and reactivates the wights. Now all fine and good to say the WW sent the Cold, but then how is it that the cold carried instructions to Othor to attack Mormont's tower and go after Mormont? If that is the case then the cold needs to be a messenger. And if it's a messenger then there needs to be a certain amount of intelligence held within the cold in order for it to do so.

In the second case we have a party of wights stationed at the mouth of the CotF cave. Again there is a large enough amount of cold that Coldhands states “Can you feel the cold? There’s something here.Where are they?” Turns out that it's the wights not the WWs. However that cold that is with the wights again is keeping them there. We see in the Dance prologue that the other wights are wandering around, probably moving south, so why are these guys sitting at a cave mouth that from the look of it is not regularly used until Bran and Co arrive. Remember they had days worth of snowfall on them and it had stopped snowing 3 days ago from when the party arrived, meaning there is a minimum of 3 days worth of no one going in or out of the place. They are stationed there and in order to be stationed the cold again must be intelligent enough to convey the purpose of their mission -- attack any who exit or enter and stay at your post, don't wander with the rest of the wights.

If you look at the situation at the Fist the wights attack the Watch, not the wildling hoard. If it's just heat signatures or the smell of life that attracts the wights why then do they go for the smaller party when they have a host of 100,000 to feast on? Because they are ordered to right? And that order needs to be conveyed and understood enough by a sentient being in order to get the wights to do as they are told.

Same is true of Tormund's party. They are never attacked full on, only nibbled at the edges. He in fact says that it is the Cold that is the problem that needs to be fought. "how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

And finally if you believe that the Cold is responsible for raising the dead then it must be smart enough to recognise a dead body as opposed to not only a live one, but one that is weak enough to turn. Because it the former case it just invades the corpse but in the latter it has to kill first. And we see with Thistle that it can be fought. She looses that fight because she was wounded and left vulnerable from Varamyr's attack on her but in healthy people it simply remains in a state of extreme low temperature. So how does it know? It needs to be able to differentiate between a vulnerable victim and a healthy person or else anyone in contact with the Cold would be actively fighting not to become a wight.

I agree with everthing you have to say Yield an excellent,excellent post, and i will add something of note.If we look at Sam and Gilly in the hut and the Wight horde outside,a horde that consists of both wildlings and NW members. Who is it ,that came in the hut? Not a Wildling or any NW member,Small Paul did. The NW member who saved Sam on their treck from the Fist when he wanted to just give up.Small Paul pretty much carried Sam.

Why him if their wasn't intelligence involved.Wighted Small Paul made Sam hesitate. Sam started talking to him and trying to see if he could reason with him.