Jon would have done much better than Robb

[Rorey Targaryen]

1) You do realize the Tullys are the only reason he got as far as he did right? Without Cat he would have to go to the Green Fork because Walder has no reason to make terms with a bastard with no connection to liege. From there it would have been the Green Fork all over again, no rivermen to add him and Jon goes in blind because he lacks Brynden and his skill and knowledge of the land.

2) Riiight, you do realize pre Games Jon was a snob, and the whole duty thing was beaten into him at the Wall right?

3) Hah! When was that proven? Jon was raised like a trueborn son, with all the blind beliefs. Theon wasn't even rotten or false, he acted like a big brother to Robb, but in this world Jon has no Robb so Theon has no reason to go to war either, Balon spitted at his own son, you think a random northerner would stop his already made plans to take the North? You do realize Roose was a high lord and not giving him any command gives him cause to just go home right?

4) You know this how? What actions has he done proven this?

5) What vows? Without the Riverlands, Jon is wandering the Riverlands with no place to stay.

6) Jon didn't take his father's lessons the best, because Ned always made sure those that served under him were happy and respected him.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

[The Storm Queen]

What they gave the Starks was an entire region that had to be defended, the most indefensible one in Westeros I may add. With no natural defensive positions, poor and disloyal bannermen, and a marriage to a woman who is responsible for half the calamities the Starks endure etc.

After the RR, the Tullys were not needed in any capacity whatsoever. I can say with a certainty that if divorce were possible in Westeros, and Ned divorced Cat after he won the war, the Starks lives would be infinitely better off

I am starting the get the feeling that your whole post is a Catelyn hate job and the last line fixes this. Ned and Cat are one of the few functional and loving marriages in Westeros. If you look at their kids and compare them with Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, Sweetrobin, Theon, Quentyn, Arianne and Joffrey our Starks get the parenting of the year award.

Just to be fair, Robb had several battle hardened Northern lords and Riverlords to counsel and help him, among them the extremly resourceful Blackfish.

I agree with your main point though.

The same Blackfish who happens to be a Tully? besides, it is funny how deeply Jon has been shaped by .... half-Tullys. Robb is his best friend and de facto brother, Arya and him have a relationship so loving that he is willing to break his oaths for her, and even Bran and Sansa seem to have been rather close to him if not to the same extent as Robb and Arya,

And tries to kill a superior officer over an insult.

Also OP I didn't realise Jon was some kind of magic combo of Sun-Tzu and Jesus but hey I must of skimmed over his chapters

Is this a Lester Freamon quote? Now I imagine him making fun of this thread :-)

How has Jon had to do it alone his whole life? Honestly, he received just as much benefits from being Ned's "son" as Robb ever did. Seeing how that is likely the reason the Old Bear felt the need to coddle him in AGOT while Jon repeatedly performed actions that should received him harsh punishments if not execution.

Not to mention that he needed Noye to explain to him the simple benefits he had over his fellow recruits by being trained as a lord (additionally he inherited his only successful military achievement from him). Similarly, it is only because of Samwell that he even become Lord Commander and so forth. Not to mention, the countless advice he received from people like Qhorin and Aemon for whatever reason besides the fact that he is a main character.

Robb has achieved just as much if not more by his lonesome then Jon has.

Yes, I started liking Jon when he had to make hard decision, but GoT Jon is rather entitled and not too bright. People tend to focus on how much Sam needs Jon but I thinks Jon's success is partially due to Sam, too.

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

Robb won the battles being a good tactician, we do not know if Jon could have done the same .

OP is judging ROB decision in key moments , moments that were achieved with hard work , moments that Jon could not pull of in his position .

[new djinn]

When Jon has any military achievements worth nothing, let me know.

[Robb_Warged]

Robb died so that the other Stark siblings could live. Every single Stark should be appreciative that Robb died. Because if Robb had not have died, Bran, Sansa, Jon, Arya, any and all of them could be at risk of dying to keep up the tone that no character is safe

I'm really hoping Robb's ghost gets to appear and/or save one of his siblings from death in these final books. The Young Wolf deserves a redeeming moment after being the king who lost the North.

Robb defeated and captured Jaime. He was undefeated on the battlefield. It took being betrayed by every person close to him to stop him. I don't think Jon or anyone would have faired as well as Robb did

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

No. Robb had the loyalty of all of his allies including Theon . While Jon didn't trust Theon and Theon was envious of Jon's Stark heritage . None of the Tullys trusted Jon. We saw Jon in minor skirmish with the wildlings how would he have fared against Tywin Lannister .

[HexMachina]

I'm still laughing at the "poisonous Tully influence" part :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

ETA: Okay, now I've recovered from that, doesn't anyone else think its dreadfully ironic that after "poisonous Tully influence" comes "he would have supported Stannis"? I mean, isn't it one of the poisonous Tullys who urges Renly.and Stannis to set aside their squabble and join.Robb to take down the Lannisters? Call a Great Council,.expose the Twincest... but, obviously poisonous, yeah...

[Robb_Warged]

If Jon had Robb's luck, he'd have died in Mance's tent when he was sent to speak with Mance during the battle at the wall

If Robb had Jon's luck, he'd have had notice about the intent of the Frey's and the wedding never would have happened

No. Robb had the loyalty of all of his allies including Theon . While Jon didn't trust Theon and Theon was envious of Jon's Stark heritage . None of the Tullys trusted Jon. We saw Jon in minor skirmish with the wildlings how would he have fared against Tywin Lannister .

:lmao:

[Robb_Warged]

Sorry double post

[Galaxian]

Jon is more impulsive than Robb, so even if Jon had managed to defeat Jaime at Riverrun, he would have immediately gone after Tywin and gotten crushed.

A better argument is if Bran had been older he would have done far better, because at the end of the day neither Robb and Jon paid attention when their direwolves were warning them of danger, Bran would have listened to Summer :lol:

[keira_targaryen]

OK, compare them its a mistake, everything would be different.

But all the hate towards Jon makes me laugh, really. How people can be so blind just because they dont like some specific character, Jon made mistakes but he did great things, same as Robb.

[Wavey Sauce]

Jon would have never broken the Frey alliance with the marriage. But he would have never got the same northern support as Robb did with all the North lords who respected the actual Stark name above all

[LordStoneheart]

Jon would have never broken the Frey alliance with the marriage.

Because he never would have gotten such a good alliance in the first place, being a bastard and all.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Jon probably wouldn't have had much of a army to ride out with. Not very many people raising their banners to support bastards.

[Witch]

Jon probably wouldn't have had much of a army to ride out with. Not very many people raising their banners to support bastards.

This!

[Mithras]

And a dumbass to boot. He needed Tyrion to explain him what is it like in the watch, he needed Sam to explain to him the very obvious reason for his assignment to serve Jeor Mormont, he thought it was a good idea to desert to go join Robb, etc...

Too bad it is ADwD and Dany is still the dumbass to boot she was in AGoT.

[David Selig]

Too bad it is ADwD and Dany is still the dumbass to boot she was in AGoT.

Did Dany murder your dog or something? Just curious...

[Mithras]

Jon is more impulsive than Robb, so even if Jon had managed to defeat Jaime at Riverrun, he would have immediately gone after Tywin and gotten crushed.

I don't think that is accurate. The only thing Robb impulsively did was the Jeyne-thing. And I suspect a love potion might be involved in Jeyne-Robb affair unbeknowst to them due to Sybell Spicer. Neither Robb nor Jon did anything rash (except AGoT for Jon but he was quick to see his mistakes).

BTW, those poisonous Tullys are still following Robb's cause though it looks dead from outside.

I don't think this comparison between Jon and Robb is accurate. To make a comparable case, one might assume that

1. Robb came to KL with Ned

2. Jon Snow was not sent to NW but left back as a castellan to Bran and Rickon.

In this case, Jon would rally the North in the name of the Starks but Cat never trusted him and the support of the Tullys might not be as fierce as in the case of Robb.

Jon would not have much leverage (such as Robb's hand) to trade with the Freys. As a castellan, he would not have the right to arrange a marriage agreement. He might still leave the negotiations to Cat and Blackfish though.

[Mithras]

The more I read this thread the more I actually lose faith that Jon will be good enough to do anything when the Others come. I like the character but he's extremely incompetent without all others in his arc. Coincidentally I'm gaining more respect than ever for House Tully, particularly Brynden, for basically being the key to Robb's cause. He was fighting in the Riverlands, remember. Not the north.

And I still insist, switch them at the time of Ned's death and Jon fails badly. Perhaps Robb might too at the Wall, but Waymar seemed to handle it just fine.

I suggest you reread the chapter in which he held the Wall against the attacks of Mance after Styr was defeated.

[Mithras]

Don't worry. Jon is thee best person to lead the fight against the Others. Think about it: what happens every time Jon is faced with inescapable, insurmountable danger? Someone comes to save him! Put Jon in the middle of any conflict and his team will surely win. I mean, just look what happened to the Great Ranging after Jon left to travel with the Halfhand.

I think I convinced myself he would have done a better Jon than Robb. Jon is just that special.

These comments from a Dany fan look ridiculous. I can understand Stanfans complaining about the plot gifts of Jon but definitely not Dany fans.