Bittersweet ending POLL

[Annara Snow]

Don't people in this thread realize that "all the bad people (i.e. people they think are bad) get bad endings, and all the good people get happy endings!!!!" is really, really, really not what is meant by "bittersweet ending"?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Don't people in this thread realize that "all the bad people (i.e. people they think are bad) get bad endings, and all the good people get happy endings!!!!" is really, really, really not what is meant by "bittersweet ending"?

Yes, that's not bittersweet ending. However, neither is that everyone will get the same cocktail of bitter and sweet. Some (very few) will have happy endings, some (more) will have very bad endings and some (not sure if it's the majority) will have what we call bittersweet.

An examble of bittersweet (but more sweet than bitter) is IMO what Ned Stark had at the begining of the series: a happy family and a good life, but still grieving for all that he lost and haunted by his ghosts and the decisions he had to make.

[Annara Snow]

Yes, that's not bittersweet ending. However, neither is that everyone will get the same cocktail of bitter and sweet. Some (very few) will have happy endings, some (more) will have very bad endings and some (not sure if it's the majority) will have what we call bittersweet.

Yes, exactly as I said in my first post.

Some people will definitely die. Some people will get more or less "happy" or not so happy endings. I doubt that any of the major characters will be 100% perfectly happy, but that's impossible at this point - most of them have already lost so much. Which is why a "cocktail of bitter and sweet" is inevitable for the majority of characters who survive.

An examble of bittersweet (but more sweet than bitter) is IMO what Ned Stark had at the begining of the series: a happy family and a good life, but still grieving for all that he lost and haunted by his ghosts and the decisions he had to make.

Which is likely to be the case for the characters who survive and get a more or less "happy" endings.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

...

Which is likely to be the case for the characters who survive and get a more or less "happy" endings.

I don't disagree in this. I just think that people do have this in mind when they vote for who they wish to have a sweet or bitter ending. As some characters are going to have a relatively happy and some a definitely horrible ending, people just assign to each, their own. Since it's just about readers' wishes, I don't agree that the premise of the thread is wrong. Well, it does not include questions for the in-between cases, but I guess the OP left those out for simplicity.

[Dornish Vinegar]

I'm not getting upset that she likes Dany. It's the implication that since I don't (or since apparently a lot of the community that participated in the poll don't), they must be doing it because of her sex.

I'm going to assume gendering PatrickStormborn as female was a typo or mindslip instead of an example of how our misogynistic culture can insidiously bias our perception of events to conform to gender stereotypes outside of our conscious awareness! Which coincidentally is exactly the phenomenon that he was probably talking about.

As for the examination of gender in the poll results, I do like the fact that two of the ones most selected for the sweet endings are girls. And, though I can see where people who don't like Dany are coming from, I can not for the life of me understand why she'd be more favored for a bitter ending than someone like Victarion--and I say that while simultaneously acknowledging 1) that internalized, unconscious misogyny in all likelihood has something to do with why some people don't like her; 2) that there are legitimate, ungendered reasons to not like Dany; 3) that some people are for sure responding negatively to Dany because of those legitimate reasons alone and only after a careful, sincere internal examination of one's own beliefs have torn from their opinion of Dany the influence of unintended misogyny (and that is a lot more complex process than it sounds. I am not claiming to be 100% proficient at it myself, but I work at it); and 4) that what sj4iy is saying about differences between people's definitions of sweet and bitter ending definitely is important and had an impact.

That being said, more power to y'all who have honestly examined your own thought processes and have come to not like Dany for the legitimate reasons, above and beyond characters like Victarion! I personally don't agree with you but if that's your opinion and its based on unproblematic stuff, that's your opinion and that's hella legitimate. And I'm saying all this without snark and from a position of earnestness, I hope I've not come across elsewise.

[JonSnow4President]

I'm going to assume gendering PatrickStormborn as female was a typo or mindslip instead of an example of how our misogynistic culture can insidiously bias our perception of events to conform to gender stereotypes outside of our conscious awareness! Which coincidentally is exactly the phenomenon that he was probably talking about.

Female avatar made me said she. Took me forever to realize BearQueen was female since picture was Jorah.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Disclaimer: I didn't take the poll.

That being said, more power to y'all who have honestly examined your own thought processes and have come to not like Dany for the legitimate reasons, above and beyond characters like Victarion! I personally don't agree with you but if that's your opinion and its based on unproblematic stuff, that's your opinion and that's hella legitimate. And I'm saying all this without snark and from a position of earnestness, I hope I've not come across elsewise.

How about people not caring about characters like Victarion?

Personally, I think it makes sense that Victarion doesn't get much hate. He does villainous things, sure, but he's just an average at that and in general, he's no more than a plot vehicle - in a hillarious way, it should be added. People just don't take him seriously enough to hate him.

Comparing Dany to Tyrion and questioning the results -from ant lens you want- makes more sense IMO. They are comparable characters regarding both in-story importance and polarizing effect fanbase-wise.

[sj4iy]

I'm going to assume gendering PatrickStormborn as female was a typo or mindslip instead of an example of how our misogynistic culture can insidiously bias our perception of events to conform to gender stereotypes outside of our conscious awareness! Which coincidentally is exactly the phenomenon that he was probably talking about.

As for the examination of gender in the poll results, I do like the fact that two of the ones most selected for the sweet endings are girls. And, though I can see where people who don't like Dany are coming from, I can not for the life of me understand why she'd be more favored for a bitter ending than someone like Victarion--and I say that while simultaneously acknowledging 1) that internalized, unconscious misogyny in all likelihood has something to do with why some people don't like her; 2) that there are legitimate, ungendered reasons to not like Dany; 3) that some people are for sure responding negatively to Dany because of those legitimate reasons alone and only after a careful, sincere internal examination of one's own beliefs have torn from their opinion of Dany the influence of unintended misogyny (and that is a lot more complex process than it sounds. I am not claiming to be 100% proficient at it myself, but I work at it); and 4) that what sj4iy is saying about differences between people's definitions of sweet and bitter ending definitely is important and had an impact.

That being said, more power to y'all who have honestly examined your own thought processes and have come to not like Dany for the legitimate reasons, above and beyond characters like Victarion! I personally don't agree with you but if that's your opinion and its based on unproblematic stuff, that's your opinion and that's hella legitimate. And I'm saying all this without snark and from a position of earnestness, I hope I've not come across elsewise.

I think it's easier to like or dislike a main character more than a secondary character unless that secondary character is particularly appealing or repugnant. Also look at the nature of the poll...we are told to pick 5 characters out of a short list of main characters, then told to pick 10 out of a much longer list of secondary characters. That's going to cause more people to vote for a main character than it will cause them to vote for a secondary character. Almost everyone will vote for Dany somehow, but not everyone will cast a vote for Victarion. A more accurate poll would have simply listed ALL of the characters and had us choose an ending for each of them...then we would have seen if people truly dislike Dany over someone like Victarion...I'd imagine not. I would say the poll as it is is inherently flawed.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Female avatar made me said she. Took me forever to realize BearQueen was female since picture was Jorah.

Lololol figured as much. Shit gets confusing for sure :cheers:

Disclaimer: I didn't take the poll.

How about people not caring about characters like Victarion?

Personally, I think it makes sense that Victarion doesn't get much hate. He does villainous things, sure, but he's just an average at that and in general, he's no more than a plot vehicle - in a hillarious way, it should be added. People just don't take him seriously enough to hate him.

Comparing Dany to Tyrion and questioning the results -from ant lens you want- makes more sense IMO. They are comparable characters regarding both in-story importance and polarizing effect fanbase-wise.

Definitely a solid point! I think the comparison to Tyrion is a lot more appropriate, as they're both first tier characters. I hadn't thought of that, was more or less just going off what PatrickStormborn said, so I thank you for pointing that out.

I think it's easier to like or dislike a main character more than a secondary character unless that secondary character is particularly appealing or repugnant. Also look at the nature of the poll...we are told to pick 5 characters out of a short list of main characters, then told to pick 10 out of a much longer list of secondary characters. That's going to cause more people to vote for a main character than it will cause them to vote for a secondary character. Almost everyone will vote for Dany somehow, but not everyone will cast a vote for Victarion. A more accurate poll would have simply listed ALL of the characters and had us choose an ending for each of them...then we would have seen if people truly dislike Dany over someone like Victarion...I'd imagine not. I would say the poll as it is is inherently flawed.

Very good points. Definitely should be cautious reading too much into this poll.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Love Dany, didn't vote in the poll, and Annara Snow has the best take on why:

Some people will definitely die. Some people will get more or less "happy" or not so happy endings. I doubt that any of the major characters will be 100% perfectly happy, but that's impossible at this point - most of them have already lost so much. Which is why a "cocktail of bitter and sweet" is inevitable for the majority of characters who survive.

Which is likely to be the case for the characters who survive and get a more or less "happy" endings.

Honestly, I really don't care whether others love or hate Daenerys. In the end, the only person who matters is GRRM. She's his character, and I'm sure he's already thought out a great ending for her -- bitter, sweet, strange, or all three at the same time.

[JonSnow4President]

Love Dany, didn't vote in the poll, and Annara Snow has the best take on why:

Honestly, I really don't care whether others love or hate Daenerys. In the end, the only person who matters is GRRM. She's his character, and I'm sure he's already thought out a great ending for her -- bitter, sweet, strange, or all three at the same time.

Or dead!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha (my own little pet prediction based on who I believe AA will be and a likely Nissa Nissa. Not even going to really call it a theory because it's not supported very well to my knowledge..)

[Hodor's Dragon]

Not surprising. Dany hate has become mainstream around here.

It is pretty bizarre, though. I can guarantee you the author didn't intend that.

[BearQueen87]

Female avatar made me said she. Took me forever to realize BearQueen was female since picture was Jorah.

*randomly stumbles into thread and sees name*

Yes, I am female. lol.

Also, did not take poll. Some of the characters aren't on there. And I agree with Liz Stargaryen, it's GRRM's world. I'm just living in it.

ETA: okay, well NOW I see the character I was looking for...I guess I'll take it now...

[JonSnow4President]

*randomly stumbles into thread and sees name*

Yes, I am female. lol.

Also, did not take poll. Some of the characters aren't on there. And I agree with Liz Stargaryen, it's GRRM's world. I'm just living in it.

Sorry for the name drop. I think I referred to you as him at some point, then it clicked that I had just written Bear Queen, so I went and checked. Needless to say, you're not that type of queen.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I know for me there were characters that I wish could have a sweet ending, but I know won't, so I didn't vote for them to get a sweet ending, kind of like it would be a wasted vote or something (prolly weird, I know). Thus, Tommen, e.g., though he's a sweet kid, didn't get my vote because I'm sure he won't get a sweet ending.

Actually, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Tommen is on the throne at the end. How shocked would you all be? George R.R. Martin-level shocked? (Get my point?)

[sj4iy]

It is pretty bizarre, though. I can guarantee you the author didn't intend that.

Had she gone to Westeros before book 5, I wonder how many people would have a different opinion of her. It was really the last boom that soured me on wanting her to sit the Iron Throne. Before that I was all like "hell yeah!" Then I read ADWD and I was like "nope nope nope".

[sj4iy]

Sorry for the name drop. I think I referred to you as him at some point, then it clicked that I had just written Bear Queen, so I went and checked. Needless to say, you're not that type of queen.

Okay, I LOL'ed at that.

[Hodor's Dragon]

One of the more detailed polls and an interesting one too. Enough people voted on the poll to get a rough estimation of the forum opinions. Things that are noticable:

- Daenerys getting that many votes for a bitter ending. Not that surprising I guess but still a bit shocking. Well, I guess that it was inevitable but I still think that the Daenerys hate is way more wide spread than is actually justified. Not going more into detail about this, it usually ends badly.

- Davos getting the most votes for a sweet ending. Completely understandable, especially after what he has been through. I am wondering how much the Stannis fandom had to do with it, but it is probably not the main reason for that many votes. Still, I am surprised to see him at first place. Would have thought to have one of the Stark kids there.

My (relevant) votes:

POVs:

Sweet:

Bran

Sansa

Davos

Brienne

Arya

It was a toss-up between Arya, Jon Snow and Samwell Tarly. Could have been any one of the three.

Bitter:

Victarion

Cersei

Melisandre

Jaime

Tyrion

Jaime and Tyrion are only really on the list, because it was really difficult to choose two more people in the first place. I think it is reasonable after all the things they have done, but I wouldn't have a problem with them having a good ending.

Sweet (other):

Jojen

Meera

Missandei

Penny

Loras

And some others, I won't list all. I was a bit disappointed to see relatively few votes for Jojen. Meera and Hodor have a very large number and in between Jojen has barely more than Petyr Baelish and less than Varys. Really? He probably invests his last year of life to help Bran, risking a terrible fate, just like Meera (he knows he won't die, but flaying doesn't need to end in death). But at least he got a negligible amount of 'bitter'-votes, so I can't really be upset. That being said, it's kind of shocking that Varys got 1% of the votes after all he has done.

I'm not a Stannis fan (not that I dislike him, I'm just relatively indifferent) and Davos is on my list.

And this: if I got to pick who was going to be King of the 7 Kingdoms, without having to worry about having a claim and all that happy crap?

King Davos, the First of His Name.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I'm not getting upset that she likes Dany. It's the implication that since I don't (or since apparently a lot of the community that participated in the poll don't), they must be doing it because of her sex.

The poster simply stated a fact about the poll. You drew your own implication. Joy of it.

[jaimecersei]

jfc the dany hate here is fucking ridiculous. personally i hope flop boring bitch stannis gets a bitter ending so all the dany haters cry bitter tears and then i'll use those tears as moisturizer tbh. seriously you guys would rather have jaime to have a sweet ending than dany?? personally i hope cersei takes him along with her, he totally deserves it.