Bittersweet ending POLL

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't see the problem with her being a cold blooded killer. Jamie is still a killer and the majority are not saying he needs to die because he can't have a normal life. As I mentioned she's no different than Jaqen. Jaqen who killed Pate. Pate was a nice guy. Jaqen shows no signs of settling down and just goes around killing people. Jaqen didn't want to die. He likes how he lives his life.

I doubt she'll have redemption and I'm glad for it because I don't believe in the redemption arcs. The Ghost of High Heart can see the future and only saw death and darkness in Arya's. I'm fine with it.

ETA: Besides, I doubt the ending is going to be a world where he kills off all the bad people. Most of whom are only pretending to be normal but spend their time doing abnormal thing since murdering people counts as abnormal.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Is it really impossible for her to eventually heal and change? Sandor had an equally emotionally empty, trauma-defined, hate-filled life doing violence since an early age, for many years, and yet many people believe he found peace on an island as a monk, while others believe he hasn't and will come back but as a gentler and more positive person and have a "redemptive" resolution. Why can't Arya then change the path she's been on if, say, she finds her family and/or reconnects with people she cared about?

I agree.

I also believe that, after everything is said and done, it is not likely at all that "normal" will still be what it used to be. Everyone, almost, will have gone through serious trauma, she won't be unique in that. Her case is one of extremes, true, but it's not like she's going to be the only one affected of loss and violence, among a merry bunch of "normal" people.

That's not to say that she will live or that she will die. Her future is one of the most open-ended IMO.

[ARYa_Nym]

I want to see Arya get her revenge...but I don't want to see her continue to live that kind of life. I know she will never live a happy, normal life after that because she's basically a psychopath now. She has trust issues and will probably never truly love anyone but those she already loves. So personally, I'd rather see her go out in a blaze of glory or go out willingly by her brother's hand than continue the kind of life she has been living. I think believing she can go back and have a happy life with her siblings is over simplistic and completely ignores the traumatic experiences she has gone through throughout the entire series. Sometimes, for some characters, there really aren't any truly happy endings. To me, Arya's a tragic figure, not heroic.

Oh, and I just noticed the basically a psychopath comment. If that were true there would be no one she loves as they're not capable of it. & she really wouldn't be likely to want mercy. They don't care if they do anything wrong. There is no remorse or guilt.

ETA: Also, they are quite skilled at presenting themselves as normal. They do it everyday IRL.

[Long Live The Onion King]

Sweet Endings

Arya

Tyrion

Davos

Jon Snow

Sam

Bitter

Cersei

Sansa

Varys

Theon

Euron

[Annara Snow]

Oh, and I just noticed the basically a psychopath comment. If that were true there would be no one she loves as they're not capable of it. & she really wouldn't be likely to want mercy. They don't care if they do anything wrong. There is no remorse or guilt.

ETA: Also, they are quite skilled at presenting themselves as normal. They do it everyday IRL.

"Psychopath" is one of those words people throw around too much without stopping to think what it actually means.

[RainGhost]

She's with the FM because she wants to be there. I think the no where else to go option applied only before he gave her other options and nothing prevented her from telling the KM if she wanted to be somewhere else and where.

As an example of why I disagree with the notion she only kills those who deserve it she didn't have to kill the Bolton guard. Her own friends didn't think she had to. Hot Pie was terrified of her and didn't want to be around her afterwards. She had motive though. She wanted to leave Harrenhal because her life was in danger but she didn't have to kill him and he was just a soldier. A soldier who could have been nice. Who could have had a family. He couldn't tell Roose he doesn't want to be a guard unless he wanted to get flayed.

Also, she likely got a stable boy flayed and barely thought about it.

Oh and there were lots of people killed in the Weasel soup even someone Gendry liked. He was pissed at her for it and judged her. She's not some Batman justice figure. She has done bad things. She's felt some remorse but for the most part is fine with what she does especially as of TWoW.

Again the insurance man's guards she didn't kill but it doesn't change the fact she was willing to kill them for no reason other than she could.

If she was about justice she wouldn't have killed Dareon since she had no authority to do so. She didn't only kill him for that she also disliked him. She didn't feel empathy for his reasons for deserting. I doubt she would kill Jon for what he did in ADWD.

No, she's with the FM because she has nowhere else to go, she's said that. Where else do you imagine she can go atm? I agree about the Bolton guard - that wasn't justice but I never said she was all good (though in hindsight he would merely have helped in the RW and would be in WF now). You can't blame her for the people who died because of the Weasel soup - she's a Stark, of course she's going to help them get Harrenhal, she didn't know they would kill those people. So it's not ok for Arya to kill a deserter from the NW but it's ok for Ned to do it? Arya will have been told from a young age what the penalty for desertion is - by Westerosi laws, she did the right thing.

Other than that, I think I essentially agree with you in that this is who she is now, I think she can be a female fighter and kill people and be fine with that. She never was a lady.

[sj4iy]

Oh, and I just noticed the basically a psychopath comment. If that were true there would be no one she loves as they're not capable of it. & she really wouldn't be likely to want mercy. They don't care if they do anything wrong. There is no remorse or guilt.

ETA: Also, they are quite skilled at presenting themselves as normal. They do it everyday IRL.

Psychopaths are entirely capable of love.

[franko99]

Is Arya dying, and then some other Stak finding her body still holding Needle (meaning she still remember who she was) a bitter ending?

Ever since I read "You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers." I think she will die, and that will be sweet for me instead of watching her becoma a (more) ruthless killer with no emotion other than rage and hate, completely empty inside.

[ARYa_Nym]

No, she's with the FM because she has nowhere else to go, she's said that. Where else do you imagine she can go atm? I agree about the Bolton guard - that wasn't justice but I never said she was all good (though in hindsight he would merely have helped in the RW and would be in WF now). You can't blame her for the people who died because of the Weasel soup - she's a Stark, of course she's going to help them get Harrenhal, she didn't know they would kill those people. So it's not ok for Arya to kill a deserter from the NW but it's ok for Ned to do it? Arya will have been told from a young age what the penalty for desertion is - by Westerosi laws, she did the right thing.

Other than that, I think I essentially agree with you in that this is who she is now, I think she can be a female fighter and kill people and be fine with that. She never was a lady.

She was given several other options. Even a chance at a normal life being someone she liked. She rejected it. I also mentioned that if there was something else or somewhere else she wanted to be she could have simply asked even if he had said no. As of now she chose the FM. She wanted to train with them since ACoK.

I'm not blaming her. The North was going to get Harrenhal anyways. Jaqen tried to tell her that. The Weasel soup didn't need to happen. I was saying that her friends blamed her and she didn't feel that bad about those who were killed. According to Gendry one at least didn't deserve death. She mainly felt bad because of her friend's reaction towards her but after the guard she said it's better that Hot Pie fears her than loves her.

Ned took the boys to executions not the girls. She was not supposed to do that. Plus, like I said she wouldn't have killed Jon if he had successfully deserted in AGoT or for the things he did in ADWD. Dareon she had no empathy for and she didn't like him. If she cared about justice she would have turned him in so justice could be served or told Sam that he must kill a deserter. But she took the law into her own hands and killed him. The KM even explained to her that she doesn't have the right to do that but she didn't care. But had it been someone she liked in Dareon's place I'm sure she would have sympathized.

Psychopaths are entirely capable of love.

They can imitate it sure.

ETA: But the real point is that they would not feel guilty about their actions. There would be no suffering. Rather they would feel nothing or maybe feel some pleasure at what they've done and continue to do.

[ARYa_Nym]

Speaking of which that reminds me I don't see it as terrible that she can't be normal if that's not what she wants. Normal options-be who she was supposed to be. She was on track to be miserable. She already was in KL with her family still alive. She was happy being normal as Cat of the Canals but not enough that she wanted to do that forever. So she rejected normal. I don't see her whining or suffering because she can't be Lady Arya or because she can kill people yet on her off day pretend to be normal.

[sj4iy]

Is Arya dying, and then some other Stak finding her body still holding Needle (meaning she still remember who she was) a bitter ending?

Ever since I read "You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers." I think she will die, and that will be sweet for me instead of watching her becoma a (more) ruthless killer with no emotion other than rage and hate, completely empty inside.

I thought of that, too. It would be a great ending to have to fight against the Others and die a heroic death, too. She certainly has the skills...I could see her going to the Wall if she returns to Westeros and joining in the fight.

[Inigo Sand]

I think Arya has been getting a hard time here. In my view it's hardly surprising how she is given what she has been through. I don't see her as 'lost', as in the Braavos chapters she has kept quite a lot of her humanity as well as a hold on who she really is (hidden Needle is surely a Chekhov's gun, and points [!] to her becoming Arya Stark again and doing something significant before the end).

So yes, I want a 'sweet' ending for her, though not a conventional one...

[JoeyBanana]

There are and have been humans entirely capable of killing in old blood without turning into baby-eating monsters or psychopaths, or even being affected (in a life-changing way) by it in the future. It's rare but it exists.

Personally, i don't see a big difference between a knight and an assassin, let alone Arya who isn't even close to the latter yet. But nobody talks about how sick and depraved Barristan, Jorah, Blackfish (etc) are. I'm not saying you can't have that opinion, but only applying it to Arya and not all "killers", is just a huge double-standard. Especially because she's still far too young to fully understand what she's turning (assassin, not psychopath) into.

[sj4iy]

There are and have been humans entirely capable of killing in old blood without turning into baby-eating monsters or psychopaths, or even being affected (in a life-changing way) by it in the future. It's rare but it exists.

Personally, i don't see a big difference between a knight and an assassin, let alone Arya who isn't even close to the latter yet. But nobody talks about how sick and depraved Barristan, Jorah, Blackfish (etc) are. I'm not saying you can't have that opinion, but only applying it to Arya and not all "killers", is just a huge double-standard. Especially because she's still far too young to fully understand what she's turning (assassin, not psychopath) into.

Killing doesn't make her a psychopath- the egregious childhood trauma she has suffered is what makes her a pyschopath.

Also, no one has said anything about Barristan, Jorah or Blackfish, so I don't know where you're getting this idea about 'double standards' with people wanting them to live while wanting Arya to die. Personally, I don't care who she's killed- in fact, I think it's fun watching her learn to be a bad-ass assassin. But I care about what kind of life she will have at the end of all of this, because that's the point of this poll. I don't see her living a good life...and believe me, I find that sad. I would love to see a happy ending for her, but I honestly can't see that for her without some contrived fairy tale ending.

[RainGhost]

She was given several other options. Even a chance at a normal life being someone she liked. She rejected it. I also mentioned that if there was something else or somewhere else she wanted to be she could have simply asked even if he had said no. As of now she chose the FM. She wanted to train with them since ACoK.

I'm not blaming her. The North was going to get Harrenhal anyways. Jaqen tried to tell her that. The Weasel soup didn't need to happen. I was saying that her friends blamed her and she didn't feel that bad about those who were killed. According to Gendry one at least didn't deserve death. She mainly felt bad because of her friend's reaction towards her but after the guard she said it's better that Hot Pie fears her than loves her.

Ned took the boys to executions not the girls. She was not supposed to do that. Plus, like I said she wouldn't have killed Jon if he had successfully deserted in AGoT or for the things he did in ADWD. Dareon she had no empathy for and she didn't like him. If she cared about justice she would have turned him in so justice could be served or told Sam that he must kill a deserter. But she took the law into her own hands and killed him. The KM even explained to her that she doesn't have the right to do that but she didn't care. But had it been someone she liked in Dareon's place I'm sure she would have sympathized.

Can you be more specific? What other options was she given? I don't remember. Arya has been cold-hearted but after everything she's been through, that's not surprising. And she never knew those people.

Just because Arya never went to the executions, doesn't mean she didn't understand what was happening and why. I don't think she would have killed Jon but I don't know what she would have done. It has nothing to do with empathy - the law is the law. If Jon had deserted in AGoT and reached Robb, do you think Robb would have welcomed him with open arms? No, because he knew the penalty for desertion. There was no-one else she could have turned Dareon in to - Westerosi laws don't apply in Braavos and Sam could never have done it. The KM said that because he doesn't follow Westerosi laws.

[JoeyBanana]

Killing doesn't make her a psychopath- the egregious childhood trauma she has suffered is what makes her a pyschopath.

Also, no one has said anything about Barristan, Jorah or Blackfish, so I don't know where you're getting this idea about 'double standards' with people wanting them to live while wanting Arya to die. Personally, I don't care who she's killed- in fact, I think it's fun watching her learn to be a bad-ass assassin. But I care about what kind of life she will have at the end of all of this, because that's the point of this poll. I don't see her living a good life...and believe me, I find that sad. I would love to see a happy ending for her, but I honestly can't see that for her without some contrived fairy tale ending.

It's not about who lives or dies. I largely agree with you, i don't see Arya having a happy ending.

My point was that her "psychotic tendencies" get exaggerated because we're in her head and for the little killing (compared to many other characters) she's done so far, it seems unfair to call her a psychopath and a lost cause. The knights were examples of men who enjoy fighting and battle but are never questioned in the way Arya is. That's all.

[ARYa_Nym]

Can you be more specific? What other options was she given? I don't remember. Arya has been cold-hearted but after everything she's been through, that's not surprising. And she never knew those people.

Just because Arya never went to the executions, doesn't mean she didn't understand what was happening and why. I don't think she would have killed Jon but I don't know what she would have done. It has nothing to do with empathy - the law is the law. If Jon had deserted in AGoT and reached Robb, do you think Robb would have welcomed him with open arms? No, because he knew the penalty for desertion. There was no-one else she could have turned Dareon in to - Westerosi laws don't apply in Braavos and Sam could never have done it. The KM said that because he doesn't follow Westerosi laws.

Marriage. Work as an apprentice to a merchant. Courtesan. Live a small life as Cat of the Canals. Passage to Westeros. She thought being with the FM was preferable to those and she didn't mention anything she wanted to do instead. As Cat she could have had a stable life. Marriage down the line and kids and steady pay. She would rather train with killers and be sent to kill people.

Ned had legal authority and at least questioned Gared first. So there's some semblance of justice and fairness.Dareon after all claims he was sent to the Wall under false pretenses but she didn't care enough to find that out and make judgement on that.

She didn't know Sam. She doesn't know that he wouldn't have done it and there were often visitors from Westeros she could have asked about how to get him punished. But really she doesn't need to go through all of that because it's not her responsibility to punish him. .

Robb likely would have tried to make excuses for Jon. He showed willingness to ignore Jon's vows in order to suit him. He wouldn't have killed Jon just like he didn't harm Catelyn for freeing Jamie when had it been someone else they likely would have gotten a more severe punishment.

[Hand to King Davos]

Marriage. Work as an apprentice to a merchant. Courtesan. Live a small life as Cat of the Canals. Passage to Westeros. She thought being with the FM was preferable to those and she didn't mention anything she wanted to do instead. As Cat she could have had a stable life. Marriage down the line and kids and steady pay. She would rather train with killers and be sent to kill people.

Ned had legal authority and at least questioned Gared first. So there's some semblance of justice and fairness.Dareon after all claims he was sent to the Wall under false pretenses but she didn't care enough to find that out and make judgement on that.

She didn't know Sam. She doesn't know that he wouldn't have done it and there were often visitors from Westeros she could have asked about how to get him punished. But really she doesn't need to go through all of that because it's not her responsibility to punish him. .

Robb likely would have tried to make excuses for Jon. He showed willingness to ignore Jon's vows in order to suit him. He wouldn't have killed Jon just like he didn't harm Catelyn for freeing Jamie when had it been someone else they likely would have gotten a more severe punishment.

This is irrelevant. No matter why he went to the Wall, he said the words, he has to stay for life. If you don't like that, sorry. That is the law.

Let me ask you, what would you have preferred that Arya had done about Dareon?

[ARYa_Nym]

This is irrelevant. No matter why he went to the Wall, he said the words, he has to stay for life. If you don't like that, sorry. That is the law.

Let me ask you, what would you have preferred that Arya had done about Dareon?

Ok. But the law also doesn't give her the authority to kill him. & like I said the black and white view of the law wouldn't have applied had it been Jon who deserted. She may well find out about how he got stabbed for his actions and that he had tried to desert. I doubt she will be so judgmental towards him.

I don't care that she killed him but I don't agree with the idea that it's an example of justice. It was murder.

[RainGhost]

Marriage. Work as an apprentice to a merchant. Courtesan. Live a small life as Cat of the Canals. Passage to Westeros. She thought being with the FM was preferable to those and she didn't mention anything she wanted to do instead. As Cat she could have had a stable life. Marriage down the line and kids and steady pay. She would rather train with killers and be sent to kill people.

Ned had legal authority and at least questioned Gared first. So there's some semblance of justice and fairness.Dareon after all claims he was sent to the Wall under false pretenses but she didn't care enough to find that out and make judgement on that.

She didn't know Sam. She doesn't know that he wouldn't have done it and there were often visitors from Westeros she could have asked about how to get him punished. But really she doesn't need to go through all of that because it's not her responsibility to punish him. .

Robb likely would have tried to make excuses for Jon. He showed willingness to ignore Jon's vows in order to suit him. He wouldn't have killed Jon just like he didn't harm Catelyn for freeing Jamie when had it been someone else they likely would have gotten a more severe punishment.

Marriage to whom? I don't remember her being offered a marriage, plus she's 11. Westeros is too dangerous for her and she never reaches her destinations. She's found somewhere where she's welcome and safe and learning useful skills. She wants vengeance and that's her holding onto her identity. If she becomes Cat of the Canals and marries down the line she loses her identity. Plus, I did say, I always saw her as a female fighter anyway but that doesn't mean she enjoys it.

Ned also had men to capture Gared for him. Arya was on her own. She didn't know how to find Sam or any other Westerosi who would kill him. I think she was justified in killing him, at least by the laws that she had been taught.

Robb most likely wouldn't have killed Jon himself but he would have sent him back to the Wall to await justice and Jon knows it - when he tries to imagine his reaction, he can't see a smile. It's his decision what to do with Catelyn but the NW's laws are clear. He wanted Jon to renounce his vows in mutual agreement with the NW, in exchange for 100 men, so he could become a king, which isn't the same thing as deserting.