Bittersweet ending POLL

[ARYa_Nym]

I just don't picture Arya being a happy little murderer. Each to his own, but I would certainly lose my affection for her.

I think it would be cool if she somehow gets reunited with Sansa and they each realize, to their surprise, that they like each other now - Arya has alreadyy gradually started having slightly more positive feelings about big sis, so I don't find it entirely implausible. They're both very different people than they were - especially Sansa - and I'm sure that thing Ned told her about the pack banding together in the winter has sunk through pretty damned well by now.

That's how she is now though. Sure she's not overabundant with joy but she likes what she's doing now and in her latest chapter:

Thought it was better to be the monster since she couldn't be the hero.

Sure you can like her less but it doesn't change the fact that some people are bad people and being bad is where they find enjoyment. They don't feel a need for remorse and redemption. They are bad and unapologetically so.

Liking her and wanting to spend her life around her are two different things. Sansa will likely have her own lovers and her own children if not then she will be ruling her own castle. Maybe a place that only has terrible memories for Arya-Harrenhal. Or a place that she never considered her home or wanted to stay at-Rivverrun.

[OldGimletEye]

Well, she was bitter before that. I said permanent because it was a response to a happy ending. Her family members would learn that she is alive but that wouldn't be their ending and I doubt it would be hers. It would just be one of the things that made them feel better but beyond that it wouldn't be the ending especially if they meet up sometime before the ending or realize they're alive before the ending.

She was? I am not sure that's the case. Wild, indepedentant, and headstrong, yes. And before the tragedy that befell her family, I think Arya had a very strong sense of justice, even if it was a little harsh. And, even after the disaster that befell her family, we see, I think, bits of Arya's basic humanity coming out. Arya is a hard ass, but I think she isn't nearly so hard ass as she would like to think.

[RainGhost]

Good in practice and execution>>>>Good intentions.

I beg to differ. I judge people by the intentions behind their actions rather than the outcomes of their actions, which is why I like Dany and hate Tywin Lannister. Apparently a lot of people share your opinion. This surprises me.

[Nictarion]

A writer liking a character doesn't mean much in terms of how he plans on ending that character's story, especially given the fact that he has mentioned that he's known all along how all of the main characters' arcs would end.

I never said it would. My post was in response to a post Game of Thrones made about Tyrion and Arya clearly being Martin's favorites. Whether people like it or not, Dany is is one of his favorites.

[ARYa_Nym]

She was? I am not sure that's case. Wild, indepedentant, and headstrong, yes. And before the tragedy that befell her family, I think Arya had a very strong sense of justice, even if it was a little harsh. And, even after the disaster that befell her family, we see, I think, bits of Arya's basic humanity coming out. Arya is a hard ass, but I think she isn't nearly so hard ass as she would like to think.

I never agreed with the strong sense of justice thing. Maybe in AGoT but even then she was willing to ignore the laws to do what she wanted. So back then maybe it was for good intentions but now it's ignore the law to kill who she wants and steal what she wants. Plus, even before she thought all her family members were dead besides Jon her morals changed.

But anyways, she was bitter already in the second book and third when she was still with her pack and as far as she knew Catelyn, Robb, and Sansa were still alive. Even if she learns that Rickon, Bran, and Sansa are alive that doesn't change the other deaths that made her bitter. Those other ones Catelyn and Ned are really the ones that did it not learning about Bran and Rickon and dismissing Sansa as dead. Oh, and it was also Syrio and Yoren dying and Hot Pie and Gendry leaving her.

[Hodor's Dragon]

A writer liking a character doesn't mean much in terms of how he plans on ending that character's story, especially given the fact that he has mentioned that he's known all along how all of the main characters' arcs would end.

It does support my earlier statement that I "guarantee" GRRM doesn't intend people to hate Dany.

I don't use words like "guarantee" about stuff like this very often. I think there is a very large amount of evidence in the text that Dany is intended to be a sympathetic character.

[sj4iy]

It does support my earlier statement that I "guarantee" GRRM doesn't intend people to hate Dany.

I don't use words like "guarantee" about stuff like this very often. I think there is a very large amount of evidence in the text that Dany is intended to be a sympathetic character.

Gotcha. I got confused since we were talking about the endings for characters...I think some people confuse that sort of thing to mean that he would never give them a bad ending. But yeah, I never thought Martin disliked Dany.

[Hand to King Davos]

I still don't agree with all the people who think Arya enjoys killing. I think she enjoys the justice of it, the fact that these people are being punished for their crimes. You can disagree with whether they deserve it, and in most cases I would say they don't, but Arya still cares about justice. Everyone on her list is there because they did something cruel or unfair that Arya feels merits punishment, usually killing someone. Who is on her list for thievery, I think someone claimed that awhile back.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think it would be cool if she somehow gets reunited with Sansa and they each realize, to their surprise, that they like each other now - Arya has alreadyy gradually started having slightly more positive feelings about big sis, so I don't find it entirely implausible. They're both very different people than they were - especially Sansa - and I'm sure that thing Ned told her about the pack banding together in the winter has sunk through pretty damned well by now.

Although on the pack banding together in the winter he also says the lone wolf dies. If she dies it seems that she rejected his teachings. She already called herself the lone wolf in AFFC and has had dreams where she was wolves with blood in her mouth (off killing) and WF got further away (home/family). Jon said she would be sewing through winter too so we know she has plenty more to kill since winter just started.

I also don't see it as anymore realistic than the notion she can be happy. They'll have some happy reunion and get along. I noticed in the series a lot of siblings don't reconcile. I could see it being the same with the Lannisters too. I doubt there will be hate but I could definitely see her being estranged from her siblings in a sense. They don't really know her know and she doesn't know them. It's not like she will tell them the truth. Only Bran could know and he won't be there if he stays in the cave.

[sj4iy]

That's how she is now though. Sure she's not overabundant with joy but she likes what she's doing now and in her latest chapter:

Thought it was better to be the monster since she couldn't be the hero.

Sure you can like her less but it doesn't change the fact that some people are bad people and being bad is where they find enjoyment. They don't feel a need for remorse and redemption. They are bad and unapologetically so.

Liking her and wanting to spend her life around her are two different things. Sansa will likely have her own lovers and her own children if not then she will be ruling her own castle. Maybe a place that only has terrible memories for Arya-Harrenhal. Or a place that she never considered her home or wanted to stay at-Rivverrun.

Once Arya has killed everyone on her list, what is there for her to go back to? She's a murderer...an assassin. She's killed people in cold blood. She trusts no one and loves no one other than Jon and her other siblings, but there's no possibility of her living a castle life. What will she do? She doesn't want to become a faceless assassin...she wants revenge. Killing people gives her no enjoyment...what gives her enjoyment is killing those on her list. Once her revenge is taken, then what? Will she continue to kill people simply because that's what she knows?

I want to see Arya get her revenge...but I don't want to see her continue to live that kind of life. I know she will never live a happy, normal life after that because she's basically a psychopath now. She has trust issues and will probably never truly love anyone but those she already loves. So personally, I'd rather see her go out in a blaze of glory or go out willingly by her brother's hand than continue the kind of life she has been living. I think believing she can go back and have a happy life with her siblings is over simplistic and completely ignores the traumatic experiences she has gone through throughout the entire series. Sometimes, for some characters, there really aren't any truly happy endings. To me, Arya's a tragic figure, not heroic.

[RainGhost]

I still don't agree with all the people who think Arya enjoys killing. I think she enjoys the justice of it, the fact that these people are being punished for their crimes. You can disagree with whether they deserve it, and in most cases I would say they don't, but Arya still cares about justice. Everyone on her list is there because they did something cruel or unfair that Arya feels merits punishment, usually killing someone. Who is on her list for thievery, I think someone claimed that awhile back.

I agree completely. There's no evidence that she enjoys killing. She's killed people that deserved it (in Westeros morals) or that she had to. The people on her list are people who have committed crimes and deserve to be punished. She's with the FM now because she has nowhere else to go and she's learning the skills she needs to administer justice. If she doesn't administer justice, who will? The Iron Throne? They're the guilty party. I'm hoping that she won't finish her training and will eventually return to WF, be reunited with her remaining family members and be a female fighter like the Mormonts. She wouldn't be the innocent girl she once was but I don't think she was ever going to stay innocent, I always saw her as a fighter. That would be a sweet ending for me. Well, bittersweet really.

[ARYa_Nym]

I still don't agree with all the people who think Arya enjoys killing. I think she enjoys the justice of it, the fact that these people are being punished for their crimes. You can disagree with whether they deserve it, and in most cases I would say they don't, but Arya still cares about justice. Everyone on her list is there because they did something cruel or unfair that Arya feels merits punishment, usually killing someone. Who is on her list for thievery, I think someone claimed that awhile back.

Dunsen is on her list because he took Gendry's helm. Is that deserving of death really? She stole Dareon's boots and that doesn't deserve death to me. It's not out of the ordinary behavior because she wanted to kill that woman in ASoS for cheating her and only didn't because there would be too many witnesses not because it would be unjustified.

& like I mentioned she had to be stopped from killing the insurance man's guards. She killed the Bolton guard and coldly dismissed it. He was just doing his job. She had motive but it wasn't a kill that was about justice. She's always been capable of discarding justice time and time again.

Once Arya has killed everyone on her list, what is there for her to go back to? She's a murderer...an assassin. She's killed people in cold blood. She trusts no one and loves no one other than Jon and her other siblings, but there's no possibility of her living a castle life. What will she do? She doesn't want to become a faceless assassin...she wants revenge. Killing people gives her no enjoyment...what gives her enjoyment is killing those on her list. Once her revenge is taken, then what? Will she continue to kill people simply because that's what she knows?

I want to see Arya get her revenge...but I don't want to see her continue to live that kind of life. I know she will never live a happy, normal life after that because she's basically a psychopath now. She has trust issues and will probably never truly love anyone but those she already loves. So personally, I'd rather see her go out in a blaze of glory or go out willingly by her brother's hand than continue the kind of life she has been living.

So are lots of people in Westeros like I said. Sellswords are murderers and kill in cold blood. I don't see complaints about what Bronn's going to do. Or Jaqen who is like her.

It does give her enjoyment. She liked killing Daeron and he wasn't on her list. Speaking of Dareon she doesn't have to kill only those who are on her list. Her list will be done soon. I highly doubt she's dying in TWoW or early ADoS. The line mentioned the spring thaw so just before spring. The people on her list are already almost dead. At the longest Cersei will last but Dany and Aegon have to get rid of her so she doesn't have that long. It seems to me that Arya will live after her list is done.

She may not even get her revenge except for maybe Dunsen but we know she kills through winter. Her arc with the FM is not helping her get revenge. It places her away from most of the characters and keeps her busy while other people are getting a chance to kill those characters. She's not going to kill Cersei she's in Essos. Illyn Payne will likely be dead for some reason that has nothing to do with her. Meryn Trant I doubt it will be because of her. She's not going to kill UnGregor. She's too far away.

[Red Tiger]

A writer liking a character doesn't mean much in terms of how he plans on ending that character's story, especially given the fact that he has mentioned that he's known all along how all of the main characters' arcs would end.

Yes, but keep in mind that he was also planning to end this series after 3 books.

[sj4iy]

Yes, but keep in mind that he was also planning to end this series after 3 books.

http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

He said it last year:

"Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing."

[ARYa_Nym]

I agree completely. There's no evidence that she enjoys killing. She's killed people that deserved it (in Westeros morals) or that she had to. The people on her list are people who have committed crimes and deserve to be punished. She's with the FM now because she has nowhere else to go and she's learning the skills she needs to administer justice. If she doesn't administer justice, who will? The Iron Throne? They're the guilty party. I'm hoping that she won't finish her training and will eventually return to WF, be reunited with her remaining family members and be a female fighter like the Mormonts. She wouldn't be the innocent girl she once was but I don't think she was ever going to stay innocent, I always saw her as a fighter. That would be a sweet ending for me. Well, bittersweet really.

She's with the FM because she wants to be there. I think the no where else to go option applied only before he gave her other options and nothing prevented her from telling the KM if she wanted to be somewhere else and where.

As an example of why I disagree with the notion she only kills those who deserve it she didn't have to kill the Bolton guard. Her own friends didn't think she had to. Hot Pie was terrified of her and didn't want to be around her afterwards. She had motive though. She wanted to leave Harrenhal because her life was in danger but she didn't have to kill him and he was just a soldier. A soldier who could have been nice. Who could have had a family. He couldn't tell Roose he doesn't want to be a guard unless he wanted to get flayed.

Also, she likely got a stable boy flayed and barely thought about it.

Oh and there were lots of people killed in the Weasel soup even someone Gendry liked. He was pissed at her for it and judged her. She's not some Batman justice figure. She has done bad things. She's felt some remorse but for the most part is fine with what she does especially as of TWoW.

Again the insurance man's guards she didn't kill but it doesn't change the fact she was willing to kill them for no reason other than she could.

If she was about justice she wouldn't have killed Dareon since she had no authority to do so. She didn't only kill him for that she also disliked him. She didn't feel empathy for his reasons for deserting. I doubt she would kill Jon for what he did in ADWD.

[sj4iy]

Dunsen is on her list because he took Gendry's helm. Is that deserving of death really? She stole Dareon's boots and that doesn't deserve death to me. It's not out of the ordinary behavior because she wanted to kill that woman in ASoS for cheating her and only didn't because there would be too many witnesses not because it would be unjustified.

& like I mentioned she had to be stopped from killing the insurance man's guards. She killed the Bolton guard and coldly dismissed it. He was just doing his job. She had motive but it wasn't a kill that was about justice. She's always been capable of discarding justice time and time again.

So are lots of people in Westeros like I said. Sellswords are murderers and kill in cold blood. I don't see complaints about what Bronn's going to do. Or Jaqen who is like her.

It does give her enjoyment. She liked killing Daeron and he wasn't on her list. Speaking of Dareon she doesn't have to kill only those who are on her list. Her list will be done soon. I highly doubt she's dying in TWoW or early ADoS. The line mentioned the spring thaw so just before spring. The people on her list are already almost dead. At the longest Cersei will last but Dany and Aegon have to get rid of her so she doesn't have that long. It seems to me that Arya will live after her list is done.

She may not even get her revenge except for maybe Dunsen but we know she kills through winter. Her arc with the FM is not helping her get revenge. It places her away from most of the characters and keeps her busy while other people are getting a chance to kill those characters. She's not going to kill Cersei she's in Essos. Illyn Payne will likely be dead for some reason that has nothing to do with her. Meryn Trant I doubt it will be because of her. She's not going to kill UnGregor. She's too far away.

You're completely missing my point. Arya can't have a normal life, and the life she is living isn't a good life, and she only enjoys killing because she is essentially dead inside to all real emotion. After all of this is over, there's nothing left for her. I'd rather she die a good death than continue living a terrible life. If you don't agree, so be it. But to me, that is what I think would be the best ending for her character.

[SeanF]

She's with the FM because she wants to be there. I think the no where else to go option applied only before he gave her other options and nothing prevented her from telling the KM if she wanted to be somewhere else and where.

As an example of why I disagree with the notion she only kills those who deserve it she didn't have to kill the Bolton guard. Her own friends didn't think she had to. Hot Pie was terrified of her and didn't want to be around her afterwards. She had motive though. She wanted to leave Harrenhal because her life was in danger but she didn't have to kill him and he was just a soldier. A soldier who could have been nice. Who could have had a family. He couldn't tell Roose he doesn't want to be a guard unless he wanted to get flayed.

Also, she likely got a stable boy flayed and barely thought about it.

Oh and there were lots of people killed in the Weasel soup even someone Gendry liked. He was pissed at her for it and judged her. She's not some Batman justice figure. She has done bad things. She's felt some remorse but for the most part is fine with what she does especially as of TWoW.

Again the insurance man's guards she didn't kill but it doesn't change the fact she was willing to kill them for no reason other than she could.

If she was about justice she wouldn't have killed Dareon since she had no authority to do so. She didn't only kill him for that she also disliked him. She didn't feel empathy for his reasons for deserting. I doubt she would kill Jon for what he did in ADWD.

I feel enormously sorry for her, but I agree. That's why I see her finishing up as assassin/torturer with the dead mackerel eyes.

[ARYa_Nym]

You're completely missing my point. Arya can't have a normal life, and the life she is living isn't a good life, and she only enjoys killing because she is essentially dead inside to all real emotion. After all of this is over, there's nothing left for her. I'd rather she die a good death than continue living a terrible life. If you don't agree, so be it. But to me, that is what I think would be the best ending for her character.

She thinks it's a good enough life though which is the point. She doesn't think she needs to be die because she kills people. No her character development is leading towards a darker path and her accepting and embracing it. So like I said killing her isn't actually mercy.

It's more like killing Raff. He does bad things so he gets killed because of it not because she decided he was unhappy and he told her this and wanted to die so she killed him.

[Annara Snow]

You're completely missing my point. Arya can't have a normal life, and the life she is living isn't a good life, and she only enjoys killing because she is essentially dead inside to all real emotion. After all of this is over, there's nothing left for her. I'd rather she die a good death than continue living a terrible life. If you don't agree, so be it. But to me, that is what I think would be the best ending for her character.

Is it really impossible for her to eventually heal and change? Sandor had an equally emotionally empty, trauma-defined, hate-filled life doing violence since an early age, for many years, and yet many people believe he found peace on an island as a monk, while others believe he hasn't and will come back but as a gentler and more positive person and have a "redemptive" resolution. Why can't Arya then change the path she's been on if, say, she finds her family and/or reconnects with people she cared about?

[Hodor's Dragon]

You're completely missing my point. Arya can't have a normal life, and the life she is living isn't a good life, and she only enjoys killing because she is essentially dead inside to all real emotion. After all of this is over, there's nothing left for her. I'd rather she die a good death than continue living a terrible life. If you don't agree, so be it. But to me, that is what I think would be the best ending for her character.

+1

Not saying I have no hopes at all for something better for Arya - see the Sansa thing above - but a good death is the best thing I see for her that has any kind of likelihood.