"Darksister" is it in the cave with Bloodraven? will a warged Hodor wield it?

[Fire Eater]

When you get thrown in the cells, you don't have access to your stuff. And why would Aegon V let Bloodraven take the last Targaryen Valyrian sword to the Wall. That would mean that the Targaryens were without Valyrian swords..

Because the sword was given to BR by Egg's grandfather or great-grandfather, and you are neglecting that the sword wouldn't be gone forever if it went with BR, it would go back to House Targaryen when BR died just as it did with Daemon Targaryen especially since BR didn't have any heirs. The Targaryens weren't overly concerned with their Valyrian swords, especially if this one wasn't going to be lost to them forever. They had bigger concerns, namely the Blackfyres.

Perhaps because it was lost in a later battle (War of the Ninepenny Kings, Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, other fights with rebels... etc.)

That Bloodraven didn't take it to the Wall with him doesn't mean the Targaryens still had it in 282AC

Except none of the Targaryens are described as fighting in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion was fought in Westeros in the Crownlands, and ended quickly. No Targaryens are reported to have fallen, and Dark Sister isn't mentioned as having gone missing in the battle.

If the Targaryens had it then why didn't Joffrey use it? Tywin wouldn't have needed to melt down Ice to forge a sword for Joffrey.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Because the sword was given to BR by Egg's grandfather or great-grandfather, and you are neglecting that the sword wouldn't be gone forever if it went with BR, it would go back to House Targaryen when BR died just as it did with Daemon Targaryen especially since BR didn't have any heirs. The Targaryens weren't overly concerned with their Valyrian swords, especially if this one wasn't going to be lost to them forever. They had bigger concerns, namely the Blackfyres.

But Bloodraven hasn't died yet

What makes you think that the Targaryens weren't concerned about their Valyrian sword...? in 233AC, after Aegon had ascended, there wasn't a Blackfyre Rebellion going on..

Except none of the Targaryens are described as fighting in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion was fought in Westeros in the Crownlands, and ended quickly. No Targaryens are reported to have fallen, and Dark Sister isn't mentioned as having gone missing in the battle.

Aerys fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, as per the Westerland reading. And even if the fourth Rebellion ended quickly, there was still fighting. It takes one good fight to lose a sword. A Targaryen doesn't need to die for it.

If the Targaryens had it then why didn't Joffrey use it? Tywin wouldn't have needed to melt down Ice to forge a sword for Joffrey.

I never said that the Targaryens still had it during Robert's Rebellion. I said that they might have lost it prior to the Rebellion.

[Veltigar]

We'll get an answer in TWOIAF, I'm sure of that.

[Fire Eater]

But Bloodraven hasn't died yet

What makes you think that the Targaryens weren't concerned about their Valyrian sword...? in 233AC, after Aegon had ascended, there wasn't a Blackfyre Rebellion going on..

Do you really think Egg knew BR was a greenseer and that he find a cave where his life would be extended by becoming a tree? He obviously thought he would outlive BR, and under those circumstances the sword would have gone back to House Targaryen.

There was a Blackfyre Rebellion during Egg's reign, they were still an active threat. The Targaryens hadn't actively tried to get back Blackfyre, and BR may have requested Dark Sister when he went to the Wall with Aemon.

Aerys fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, as per the Westerland reading. And even if the fourth Rebellion ended quickly, there was still fighting. It takes one good fight to lose a sword. A Targaryen doesn't need to die for it.

I never said that the Targaryens still had it during Robert's Rebellion. I said that they might have lost it prior to the Rebellion.

It isn't explicitly mentioned in the source that Aerys fought in the Wo9PK, but it is possible. Do you think if they lost Dark Sister it would have been mentioned? They would have organized a search for it. I doubt a Valyrian steel sword belonging to the royal family would have permanently gone missing, and not be mentioned.

I doubt a sword that has been mentioned throughout history from the TPatQ and TRP to TSS and TMK, and wielded by Aemon the Dragonknight and taken by Jaehaerys's family during the intra-family conflict had just plain gone missing given its importance.

We'll get an answer in TWOIAF, I'm sure of that.

Something we can all agree on.

[MasterJack]

Hodor is just an empty vessel for Dunk to come back and win the wars by himself.

[RumHam]

Do you really think Egg knew BR was a greenseer and that he find a cave where his life would be extended by becoming a tree? He obviously thought he would outlive BR, and under those circumstances the sword would have gone back to House Targaryen.

Sending him to the Wall was a punishment, a form of exile. I really doubt Aegon would let him take the sword.

There was a Blackfyre Rebellion during Egg's reign, they were still an active threat. The Targaryens hadn't actively tried to get back Blackfyre, and BR may have requested Dark Sister when he went to the Wall with Aemon.

I'm not totally sure what you mean here? I assume the Targaryens would have wanted Blackfyre back. In fact it's interesting that according to the Westerlands reading:

Dunk kills Daemon III, so there would be a chance for them to reclaim the sword right there. If it was lost again later on, I see no reason the fact that the Targaryens reclaimed Blackfyre would be mentioned in the main novels. The Blackfyres would still be Blackfyres without the sword. They would still probably keep invading. If we assume Maelys died with the sword then that would be three times (that we know of, there was at least one more rebellion.) that the sword's bearer has been killed and somehow his killer did not pick it up.

It isn't explicitly mentioned in the source that Aerys fought in the Wo9PK, but it is possible. Do you think if they lost Dark Sister it would have been mentioned? They would have organized a search for it. I doubt a Valyrian steel sword belonging to the royal family would have permanently gone missing, and not be mentioned.

There were like three generations for it to go missing. A sinking ship, a thief, a caravan attacked by mountain men. A lot can happen to a sword. I could even imagine that it was lost at Summerhall. Valyrian steel can't be damaged by regular fire, but maybe it was mysteriously never found in the rubble.

[Fire Eater]

Sending him to the Wall was a punishment, a form of exile. I really doubt Aegon would let him take the sword.

Except the WOIAF chapter released says BR soon departed to take the black. He was already punished by imprisonment, why would Egg need to punish him even more? Especially since he led the Great Council that named Egg king in the first place. The sword would still have gone back to House Targaryen after BR's death which Egg likely thought was a few years. Basically, throwing him a bone as they say.

There were like three generations for it to go missing. A sinking ship, a thief, a caravan attacked by mountain men. A lot can happen to a sword. I could even imagine that it was lost at Summerhall. Valyrian steel can't be damaged by regular fire, but maybe it was mysteriously never found in the rubble.

Except this sword was owned by the most powerful family in Westeros. How far would a thief or mountain men have gone with the sword? The entire continent was ruled by the Targaryens. I believe it would have been mentioned if it had been lost at Summerhall.

[RumHam]

Except the WOIAF chapter released says BR soon departed to take the black. He was already punished by imprisonment, why would Egg need to punish him even more? Especially since he led the Great Council that named Egg king in the first place. The sword would still have gone back to House Targaryen after BR's death which Egg likely thought was a few years. Basically, throwing him a bone as they say.

It's possibly, but I consider it unlikely.

Except this sword was owned by the most powerful family in Westeros. How far would a thief or mountain men have gone with the sword? The entire continent was ruled by the Targaryens. I believe it would have been mentioned if it had been lost at Summerhall.

That's true, it would have been hard to get away with stealing the sword. I don't really think it would have been mentioned if it was lost at Summerhall. As I said it's never mentioned at all in the main series, and Summerhall is discussed in the vaguest terms possible.

Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons, I told Axell as much.

there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense...” The old man hesitated again.

“Say it,” she urged. “A sense... ?”

“... of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.”

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar’s birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. “It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?”

“Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

She began to sob, her little body shaking. “You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!”

“It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.

“A woods witch?” Dany was astonished. “She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted

thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always

claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.”

“What became of her?”

“Summerhall.” The word was fraught with doom.

All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

Unless I'm mistaken that's all the info we get on Summerhall from the books. Anyway the Summerhall thing was just one possible explanation for how it might have been lost. I really doubt I guessed it right.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I have been playing the "clash of Kings" mod for Mount and Blade Warband and there is a submission where your player can "obtain" Darksister, the legendary Targaryen Valaryian steele sword. I wonder, if Bloodraven took it with him to the cave and a warged Hodor, by bran ofcourse, will wield it?

Personally I wonder if Booldraven himself can warg Hodor and wield it, that would be quite something.

Bran had a little training but only very basic, Bloodraven would know quite well how to use it...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Do you really think Egg knew BR was a greenseer and that he find a cave where his life would be extended by becoming a tree? He obviously thought he would outlive BR, and under those circumstances the sword would have gone back to House Targaryen.

No, of course Egg didn't know. But going to the Wall is a punishment. Had Bloodraven gone willingly free, he might have been allowed to take personal items wig hom, by as far as we know, Aegon had ordered him to go to the Wall.

There was a Blackfyre Rebellion during Egg's reign, they were still an active threat. The Targaryens hadn't actively tried to get back Blackfyre, and BR may have requested Dark Sister when he went to the Wall with Aemon.

I meant at the beginning of Aegons reign, that first year where Bloodraven went to the Wall, there was no Blackfyre Rebellion, it seems.

As to Blackfyre, there's something weird going on there. As RumHam mentioned, there would have been at least 3 Rebellions where the Targarens could regain the sword. Even if the Blackfyres managed to hold onto it until Maelys, what happened to the sword when no male Blackfyres were left?

There's a gap of info here, just as is the case for Dark Sister

It isn't explicitly mentioned in the source that Aerys fought in the Wo9PK, but it is possible. Do you think if they lost Dark Sister it would have been mentioned? They would have organized a search for it. I doubt a Valyrian steel sword belonging to the royal family would have permanently gone missing, and not be mentioned.

I doubt a sword that has been mentioned throughout history from the TPatQ and TRP to TSS and TMK, and wielded by Aemon the Dragonknight and taken by Jaehaerys's family during the intra-family conflict had just plain gone missing given its importance.

With a sword that had been mentioned so little in the main series, it is possible that it wasn't mentioned if it was lost.

Except this sword was owned by the most powerful family in Westeros. How far would a thief or mountain men have gone with the sword? The entire continent was ruled by the Targaryens. I believe it would have been mentioned if it had been lost at Summerhall.

Elia, the future queen of the Seven Kingdoms, was attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood while traveling with KG escort (and presumably other guards). That did not stop the brotherhood from stealing her jewels, and stealing a kiss.

Jon Arryn always traveled in strength through he Mountains of the Moon,in case of an attack by maintain clans.

It only takes one youg prince taking a slight risk. And there were plenty of young princes. Aegon had three sons,for example. Did Duncan own the sword? Did the third son, whose name we might soon learn?

As to Summerhal, we don't know much about what happened there, we don't even know yet who all died there. So a sword not having been mentioned yet seems not such a strange thing.

[Fire Eater]

No, of course Egg didn't know. But going to the Wall is a punishment. Had Bloodraven gone willingly free, he might have been allowed to take personal items wig hom, by as far as we know, Aegon had ordered him to go to the Wall.

But Dark Sister wouldn't have been lost to House Targaryen permanently, but only a for few decades at most, Egg would have thought. Also, may I remind you BR was released from imprisonment after Maekar died; I seriously doubt he could have led the Great Council from his cell. BR led the Great Council that put Egg on the IT in the first place. BR likely chose to go with Aemon given that.

I meant at the beginning of Aegons reign, that first year where Bloodraven went to the Wall, there was no Blackfyre Rebellion, it seems.

As to Blackfyre, there's something weird going on there. As RumHam mentioned, there would have been at least 3 Rebellions where the Targarens could regain the sword. Even if the Blackfyres managed to hold onto it until Maelys, what happened to the sword when no male Blackfyres were left?

There's a gap of info here, just as is the case for Dark Sister

Blackfyre will likely appear with fAegon, as a hint to the reader, and I think Dark Sister is with BR.

I see a pattern with Dark Sister and Blackfyre.

In the wars between Maegor and Aenys's heirs, Maegor had Blackfyre while Jaehaerys's side (the rightful claimants) had Dark Sister.

In TPaTQ, Aegon II had Blackfyre while Daemon, who was married to Viserys's chosen heir and the rightful king by his marriage to her, wielded Dark Sister. In the Blackfyre Rebellion, Daemon wielded the sword from which he took his name while BR, who fought on the side of the rightful king Daeron II, wielded Dark Sister.

I think I am seeing a pattern. The rightful heirs wield Dark Sister while the usurpers wield Blackfyre. FAegon will no doubt get Blackfyre while Dark Sister may likely be with BR in the CotF cave near the Wall, and may find it's way to Jon. Perhaps, a hint that Jon is the rightful heir while Aegon is a usurper?

Elia, the future queen of the Seven Kingdoms, was attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood while traveling with KG escort (and presumably other guards). That did not stop the brotherhood from stealing her jewels, and stealing a kiss.

Jon Arryn always traveled in strength through he Mountains of the Moon,in case of an attack by maintain clans.

he brotherhood was put to an end swiftly after that, and Elia's jewels were likely returned if they were found. Most outlaws would rather keep a Valyrian steel sword than sell it off, and few would be so foolish as to steal from a Targaryen.

Why would the Targaryens go by the mountain road to the Vale when it would be much quicker and easier to get to KL to the Vale by ship? I think if Dark Sister had been taken by the mountain clans it would have been mentioned. We also would have seen a Valyrian steel sword wielded by one of them.

It only takes one youg prince taking a slight risk. And there were plenty of young princes. Aegon had three sons,for example. Did Duncan own the sword? Did the third son, whose name we might soon learn?

As to Summerhal, we don't know much about what happened there, we don't even know yet who all died there. So a sword not having been mentioned yet seems not such a strange thing.

The young prince wouldn't have been traveling alone, he would have some KG with him or at least a retinue of armed men as was the case in THK. The realm didn't reach that kind of chaos or lawlessness where Targaryen princes were knowingly attacked along the road by outlaws.

[RumHam]

Also, may I remind you BR was released from imprisonment after Maekar died; I seriously doubt he could have led the Great Council from his cell. BR led the Great Council that put Egg on the IT in the first place. BR likely chose to go with Aemon given that.

We know from Aemon that Bloodraven was released from the cells to accompany him to the Wall. Nowhere is it established that Maekar was the one who imprisoned him. Does it make sense that Bloodraven would be imprisoned by Maekar but then somehow be released and allowed to rule over the Great Council that named Egg king? And then afterwords Egg threw him back in the cells/exiled him to the Wall?

We've long thought that it was a case of Egg reversing Maekar's punishment by "allowing" Bloodraven to go to the Wall. Since Egg could have outright pardoned Bloodraven, (and it's now clear that Bloodraven was not in jail but in a position of authority shorty after Maekar's death) isn't it more likely that Bloodraven was being sent to the Wall was a punishment and not some kind of mercy?

[UtherSnow]

Any sword Lord Brynden (aka 3-eyed crow) has isn't likely to be more than what you'd call standard issue. There's more chance of him growing an eye (to replace the one he's known to have lost in battle) than Dark Sister being in the cave. It's thought, now he's Bloodraven, he's a sorcerer but that's really stretching a point to, somehow, magically transport a mystical mythical sword all the way from KL to address unknown, somewhere in the Haunted Forest.

The thing with sorcerers is that they are never Masters Of All Magic. Merlin is a good case in point.

As a third (inner) eye is closely associated with Hinduism, isn't Lord Chakra more appropriate as a name? Who would've been his Guru? A young Varys, or his predecessor, within the Black Cells?

Anyhow! Rather than wonder where Dark Sister is, where's his weirwood longbow?

[Fire Eater]

We know from Aemon that Bloodraven was released from the cells to accompany him to the Wall. Nowhere is it established that Maekar was the one who imprisoned him. Does it make sense that Bloodraven would be imprisoned by Maekar but then somehow be released and allowed to rule over the Great Council that named Egg king? And then afterwords Egg threw him back in the cells/exiled him to the Wall?

Why would Egg imprison the guy who named him king? BR seemed to be on good enough terms with him to name him king.

Maekar also had a rivalry with BR. Also, Maekar is Stannis's prototype, and I doubt Stannis would have approved of BR's operation.

[RumHam]

Why would Egg imprison the guy who named him king? BR seemed to be on good enough terms with him to name him king.

Why indeed. It still seems more likely to me than Maekar leaving him in the black cells for twelve years, only so he could be release and then once again made the de facto head of House Targaryen for the Great Council.

Also, Maekar is Stannis's prototype, and I doubt Stannis would have approved of BR's operation.

Come on, that's a flimsy argument even by the standards of this forum. Maekar and Stannis are alike so therefor Stannis's hypothetical feelings about Bloodraven are suggestive of Maekar's feelings for Bloodraven?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Why would Egg imprison the guy who named him king? BR seemed to be on good enough terms with him to name him king.

If Egg threw Bloodraven in the cells, then something must happened that gave Egg cause to do so.

The books state that Bloodraven went from the cells to the Wall. The Westerlands reading showed that Bloodraven was still in power during the Great Council. So something must have happened in between.

Because if Maekar had imprisoned Bloodraven, he would have done so with charges..and it's only the really severe stuff that lands you in the Black Cells. Bloodraven wasn't really liked in Westeros, look at the D&E tales. So this scenario raises a lot of questions:1) why would Bloodraven be in the Black Cells for 12 years? 2) why would the high lords free Bloodraven, install him on a council and give him a lot of power, if they had mistrusted him anyway? 3) why would he return to his cell after the king was chosen?

Above all, we always assumed that it was Maekar who had thrown him in the cells.. but that was never stated anywhere, right?

Presiding a Great Council is a high position, and you'd think that Bloodraven already needed to be in power at least a little before the Great Council to get such a spot. It would look rather strange is a criminal of 12 years of imprisonment would get to choose the new king. So perhaps it wasn't Maekar at all who threw him in the Black Cells?

[Mithras]

“When the king [Aerys] named Lord Bloodraven his Hand, your lord father refused to be part of his council and departed King’s Landing for his own seat,” he reminded Egg. “He has been at Summerhall for a year, and half of another. What do you call that, if not sulking?”

“I call it being wroth,” Egg declared loftily. “His Grace should have made my father Hand. He’s his brother, and the finest battle commander in the realm since Uncle Baelor died. Lord Bloodraven’s not even a real lord, that’s just some stupid courtesy. He’s a sorcerer, and baseborn besides.”

“Bastard born, not baseborn.”

“King Aegon washed Bloodraven clean of bastardy,” he reminded Egg, “the same as he did the rest of them.”

“The old High Septon told my father that king’s laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another,” the boy said stubbornly. “Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal . . . Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteel, even Bloodraven. Lord Rivers was more cunning than the other two, he said, but in the end he would prove himself a traitor, too. The High Septon counseled my father never to put any trust in him, nor in any other bastards, great or small.”

Born to betrayal, Dunk thought. Born of lust and weakness. Never to be trusted, great or small. “Egg,” he said, “didn’t you ever think that I might be a bastard?”

“You, ser?” That took the boy aback. “You are not.”

“The long and short of it is, most like you’re squiring for a bastard.”

For once Egg had nothing to say.

I think Egg was more likely to overcome his prejudice against bastards than his father. So, I think Maekar imprisoned Bloodraven at a certain point.

[Ser-Hodor]

Perhaps Egg, upon becoming king, freed BR from his previous sentence to protect his brother at the wall

[Fire Eater]

Come on, that's a flimsy argument even by the standards of this forum. Maekar and Stannis are alike so therefor Stannis's hypothetical feelings about Bloodraven are suggestive of Maekar's feelings for Bloodraven?

Maekar had a rivalry with BR remember.

If Egg threw Bloodraven in the cells, then something must happened that gave Egg cause to do so.

The books state that Bloodraven went from the cells to the Wall. The Westerlands reading showed that Bloodraven was still in power during the Great Council. So something must have happened in between.

Because if Maekar had imprisoned Bloodraven, he would have done so with charges..and it's only the really severe stuff that lands you in the Black Cells. Bloodraven wasn't really liked in Westeros, look at the D&E tales. So this scenario raises a lot of questions:1) why would Bloodraven be in the Black Cells for 12 years? 2) why would the high lords free Bloodraven, install him on a council and give him a lot of power, if they had mistrusted him anyway? 3) why would he return to his cell after the king was chosen?

Above all, we always assumed that it was Maekar who had thrown him in the cells.. but that was never stated anywhere, right?

Presiding a Great Council is a high position, and you'd think that Bloodraven already needed to be in power at least a little before the Great Council to get such a spot. It would look rather strange is a criminal of 12 years of imprisonment would get to choose the new king. So perhaps it wasn't Maekar at all who threw him in the Black Cells?

The Great Council wasn't until after Maekar died, so BR was likely freed after Maekar's death.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Maekar had a rivalry with BR remember.

The Great Council wasn't until after Maekar died, so BR was likely freed after Maekar's death.

But from Feast we know that Bloodraven went from the Cells to the Wall...