Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[SeanF]

My point has much less to do with gender roles and more to do with human decency. It is not, imho, decent to treat a child cooly because of something they had no control over. I can promise you if the roles were reversed I would expect the father to at least not be cold to the child, as was the case with Cat. As you pointed out, it was a case of misguided anger and frustration. I agree with David Selig's point about looking like a doormat to a degree, but I don't think the only viable solution to not looking like a doormat was to treat the child with loathing.

Rationally speaking, Jon is not to blame for Ned's (supposed) inifidelity. But, very few people, in Catelyn's situation, could be anything other than deeply offended, at having their husband's illegitimate child brought up in their household. That would be true in our world, and it's true in-universe.

It would have been wonderful if Catelyn could have got over it, but it's not something that anyone is entitled to expect from her.

[UVA]

So the way Ned treated "his" bastard is different; he's breaking socal norms.

To some extent he does. As indicated by Cat's views that you quoted, it was highly unusual for a lord to raise a bastard among his true born children, giving that child access to all the perks of being a noble kid. Clearly this isn't the norm, for it would trigger a situation where the wife feels shamed and the child unwelcome...sounds kind of familiar. But I think Ned's social norm breaking ends there.

I mean, how can Ned not reinforce Jon's bastard status and maintain the cover story? This essentially influences many of Ned's key decisions regarding Jon: not taking him to court, agreeing to send him to the Watch, even ruling in favor of Cat's wishes to seat Jon separately from the family when Robert visits Winterfell -- all these actions publicly enforce the social distinctions associated with Jon's bastardy. But how can Cat Jon, or any one else in the story know that this is a cover?

[BastardlyRock]

Rationally speaking, Jon is not to blame for Ned's (supposed) inifidelity. But, very few people, in Catelyn's situation, could be anything other than deeply offended, at having their husband's illegitimate child brought up in their household. That would be true in our world, and it's true in-universe.

It would have been wonderful if Catelyn could have got over it, but it's not something that anyone is entitled to expect from her.

I don't criticize Cat for not getting over it, or for being angry, only for channeling that anger at Jon. I'd also like to express that this doesn't make me like Cat any less. In fact I like her more for the added depth of character it brings her, and thus enjoyment for me as a reader.

[BearQueen87]

I don't criticize Cat for not getting over it, or for being angry, only for channeling that anger at Jon. I'd also like to express that this doesn't make me like Cat any less. In fact I like her more for the added depth of character it brings her, and thus enjoyment for me as a reader.

I agree. In the hands of another writer, Cat could have either been "The Wicked Stepmother" (as I believe ShadowCat pointed out) or she could have been "The Perfect Saintly Mother and Wife." Cat's a very complex character which is I'm glad this re-read exists. :)

[BastardlyRock]

I agree. In the hands of another writer, Cat could have either been "The Wicked Stepmother" (as I believe ShadowCat pointed out) or she could have been "The Perfect Saintly Mother and Wife." Cat's a very complex character which is I'm glad this re-read exists. :)

Gotta love GRRM, he threw out all the rules when he wrote this one. :cheers:

[DrunkSister]

Some time ago I started a luwin reread; before it tapered out because of my exams we have covered every instance luwin was mentioned up until the time Bran woke up from his coma.

This included his relationship with Ned and Catelyn, and also that there is a possibility that it was him who influenced Jon to want to join the NW, but that both Ned and Benjen probably ultimately planned for him to join the NW, just not as a kid.

It only has two pages, most of which are quotes, so if anybody is interested, it's a quick read.

...

The second thing I want to mention is Cat's aversion to the heart tree of winterfell. It has occurred to me some time ago (in yet another failed reread) that she is feeling the supernatural influence of the person inhabiting the tree.

The weirwood’s bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself.

***

She spread her cloak on the forest floor and sat beside the pool, her back to the weirwood. She could feel the eyes watching her, but she did her best to ignore them.

Considering this tidbit

He raced across the godswood, taking the long way around to avoid the pool where the heart tree grew. The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands.

Both Cat and Bran feel uneasy with the eyes. I don't know that anybody else felt this unease?

But Bran will ultimately be looking from those eyes and it might be this paradox and recognition that is freaking them out.

Anyway, just a thought.

It has been strange to me on my first reread to notice just how much more open to supernatural Catelyn is compared to Ned.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I agree. In the hands of another writer, Cat could have either been "The Wicked Stepmother" (as I believe ShadowCat pointed out) or she could have been "The Perfect Saintly Mother and Wife." Cat's a very complex character which is I'm glad this re-read exists. :)

Just in to say that credit goes to Mladen, he was the first to highlight this point.

Other than that, I fully agree. Her (totally human and understandable...) failings make me love her the most. Catelyn is real; she is the mother, but not the Mother Above...

@Mirijam

Nice to see you here :)

[DrunkSister]

@Mirijam

Nice to see you here :)

I had a bout of insomnia and decided to check how things are going. I am so glad I did.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Good points! I have a couple quick nitpicks... are you saying that had Cat treated Jon warmly then the entire deception would have come crumbling down? I'm not arguing for Ned to have shared the truth with Cat, but simply wondering how suspicious it would have been if Cat hadn't distanced Jon. I'm sure there are instances (even in Westeros) of treating bastards like family. Picture for a second the other scenario, one wherein Cat was warm and welcoming of Jon, and everyone talked about what a caring and gracious woman Cat was because she invested in her husband's bastard the same love as she did her own children. That being said, I do agree that her icy treatment of Jon helped to further cement the farce, but by no means do I think the opposite would have been a breaking point.

The only other thing is in regards to Robert, who I would agree has a hatred for Targs (though maybe not an irrational one) but a hatred that very much stems from a (possibly irrational) fear of Targs/Targ children. The same threat that Robert sees in Targ children to the IT Cat sees in Jon to her own children's claim. The only difference being Cat doesn't try to have Jon murdered...

I think Ned didn't want to take any chances that anyone would be suspicious of his cover story. Cat's coldness toward Jon was a great help in selling that story. (As were the rumors about Ashara Dayne that Ned reinforced by forbidding mention of them.)

And as to the Robert/Rhaegar situation - that's the way I've seen it (what you described in your #102) since Day One.

Part of the reason Cat had trouble dealing with the Jon situation was that there was no end in sight to it. Ned didn't seem to be making any plans for Jon to find a place elsewhere once he was old enough. He didn't tell Cat, "I'm not comfortable with forcing Jon to take the Black, but I'm hoping he will on his own. I'll have Benjen visit a lot and make sure we talk up the honor of serving in the Watch." As far as Cat could tell, Jon was going to be there forever. When an opportunity to end it cropped up, Cat jumped at it.

[Mladen]

I am finally home, so I have enough time to reply on many points that have been brought up here.

First, I am not such big fan of changing our perspective on the marriage to properly assess the Ned/Cat/Jon triangle and what went wrong. As I can see, none of us here actually changed the modern view on the marriage, parenting and stepchildren in order to understand this difficult situation. We have just been aware of the lack of some choices characters' (for this conversation, most importantly - Catelyn) choices. As UVA noticed, if we speak in terms of how this would work in modern ages, we would have a different scenario. But, we are not there and as ShadowCat Rivers said, we have no prerequisites to objectively compare this to how it would look like today. But, regardless of that, regardless of different roles and obligations imposed by medieval setting, thing is that this whole marriage isn't something that we can't understand. Even watching from modern perspective, nothing here isn't so far from us. So, while I do understand the constrictions setting imposed, one thing is certain - some things haven't changed. People are people, with all their virtues and flaws and as such, we have to observe them. Regardless whether they live in 21st century NYC or in pseudo-medieval world.

Now, regarding Jon, I have said this already and I will repeat it again. Cat didn't send Jon away to NW. Any sort of argument that would entail this, including Catelyn creating "toxic home environment" that Jon couldn't have handled anymore, thing is that this decision is far too complex to pinpoint it down to Catelyn. When we are assessing Jon's train of thoughts regarding this, the lack of Catelyn in it is quite telling. And I agree with UVA that Jon is more hurt by the lack of mother figure and the whole mystery surrounding her than with Catelyn. Furthermore, Jon has quite a lot of thoughts dedicated to his bastard status and what it entailed (including his brothers always having place of honor in social standings). Then there is this whole thing of "not siring a bastard". So, if anyone wants to find a reason of why Jon left to NW, they would have to look far from Catelyn and into the damage that was made to Jon's psyche with hiding the identity of his mother and the stigma bastardy had. To conclude, blaming Cat for Jon's enrollment to NW is as unfair as blaming Robb for the same thing, because he would have become Lord of Winterfell one day and Jon wouldn't.

But the question that arises is certainly one that we need to answer. Why do we keep blaming Catelyn? Between the mess Ned made by bringing him to WF, damage to Jon by hiding who his mother was and imposing a status that isn't flattering, why do we blame Catelyn? Well, I see this in two ways:

(1) First, comes the rejection of someone not following established role. Catelyn as a woman and as a mother is, as a character, expected to follow certain standards. She is supposed to be compassionate, she had to have learnt how to love Jon, raise him with her own children and give him all that he may need (btw, one of the greatest travesties committed in the show is the one where Catelyn admits that she should have loved Jon. Not to mention that whole idiocy of the last line. Yeah, her love towards Jon would have had stopped incest, for sure...). Basically, Catelyn is a woman and as such, there are some things that we expect from her. Even today, we frown upon the independent women's choice who decides not to have children. Rare are the women that are seen through George Clooney- prism of coolness. So, it is my firm belief that much of hatred stems from simple fact that we sometimes have rather strict norms of gender roles.

(2) This one is more of literary nature, and I spoke about that before. We like boxes in literature. We like clear lines, deep cuts. Especially in fantasy genre, we are firm believers of existence of the good and the bad guys. That is how powerful our understanding of this type of novel is. Which makes whole introductory bias thing completely true (heck, even GRRM was surprised at some reactions). So, that small level of expectancy and watching fantasy genre's characters through the boxes have possibly made us forget one most important thing about ASOIAF - "hero in one POV may very well be the villain in another". And that is why these rereads are so useful. They teach us how many things we have missed because we read this as just another piece of fantasy literature where we know who's who from the very first line.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sorry for ignoring this thread so far but I have been to WorldCon in London and wasn't able to post anything much apart from short snippets on my phone. Cat III will be up on the 29th.

In the meantime, some friendly advice which was used in the Sansa thread: this is a re-read thread. If a particular controversial point spawns extreme amount of discussion, it may be worth it to break it out and treat it separately, like this facination with the Cat/Jon relationship. There are lots and lots of theories about it, but most, like most in this thread too, have very little to do with the actual text, or people ignore the text or just simply don't want to bother quoting passages supporting their point of view.

Since this is a re-read thread, I'd recommend

1. Fewer "I think" posts based on subjective viewpoints

2. More actual quotations from the text.

Otherwise this will just be another thread discussing Cat and not actually a re-read thread.

Feel free to ignore of course, but sticking to the topic and sticking to textual analysis are what made the Sansa re-read in particular so great and so groundbreaking.

[Mladen]

Since this is a re-read thread, I'd recommend

1. Fewer "I think" posts based on subjective viewpoints

2. More actual quotations from the text.

You have a point, Lyanna and I do apologize if I have caused any trouble...

Now, I don't know whether this should be separate thread since we have had too many of those regarding this (and only few ended well), but if I may I will post it here. Since this is revolving solely around Jon, I hope I won't disturb the reread momentum (I will put it in spoiler brackets so it could be, if needed and wanted, easily ignored). So, where my opinion about Jon's decision making process regarding NW comes from?

Bran I and Jon I, AGOT: Decision to join NW

As many of you must have read already, it is my opinion that Jon's decision to join NW mainly stems from reasons that don't include Catelyn Stark. More than that, I do believe, and I hope that I will be able to show to you with quotes from the above-mentioned chapters, what was the road of decision-making Jon went through. This "analysis" will be based on two things: direwolf scene from Bran I and Jon's emotions in his first POV and following Arya chapter. Throughout these three chapters, I hope I will show to you what is the main preoccupation of Jon and how he decided to join NW.

Bran I: Direwolf scene

I won't spend much time explaining this. We all know what has happened here. A she-direwolf was killed by stag's antler, and in her death she gave birth to 6 direwolf pups. What is more important for us at this moment are the following quotes:

“Lord Stark,” Jon said. It was strange to hear him call Father that, so formal. Bran looked at him with desperate hope. “There are five pups,” he told Father. “Three male, two female.”

“What of it, Jon?”

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.”

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Bran's chapter is also the very first chapter in the books. Beside the looming shadow of dead direwolf, this chapter also introduces us to some family dynamics and customs regarding a bastardy. It is especially important to notice Jon's behavior when the five pups were found. Five, not six - for the true born children. How Jon phrased his argument and the way both Bran and Ned responded, it is quite clear that Jon was rather well aware of his bastard status. This is something entire society of Westeros imposed on these children, and North isn't much different from South in this (for every Stone, Flowers or Rivers, you have a Snow). Jon's rather clear exclamation "I am no Stark" is just a beginning for us, but quite the description of the life he had in Winterfell. We certainly can't argue that Jon was feeling unwanted and unloved in Winterfell, for his connection with the place is established throughout his entire storyline, but what we can say is that Jon was aware of his status. Whether that came from Catelyn or society itself, we can't tell for sure, but we at least can acknowledge that Catelyn wasn't beyond accustoms in her opinions that lines must be drawn. And as much as some would like to think that "up there in the North things are different" the fact remains that bastardy has a stigma and isn't something that is positively seen upon. And with these two quotes, we also see how aware Jon is of that (something, if I may add, his sister Arya never was, which ultimately became one of the biggest lessons smallfolk taught her in ASOS)

Jon I: Remember who you are...

The chapter depicts Winterfell feast upon Robert's arrival and perhaps the very first case of clear distinction between Jon and his siblings. This chapter also show us the first signs of Jon's desire to join NW as well as the reasons why:

There were times-not many, but a few-when Jon Snow was glad he was a bastard.

His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall, and no one had said a word about his pup. He told himself he was fortunate in that too.

His eyes stung. Jon rubbed at them savagely, cursing the smoke. He swallowed another gulp of wine and watched his direwolf devour the chicken.

“Take me with you when you go back to the Wall,” Jon said in a sudden rush. “Father will give me leave to go if you ask him, I know he will.”

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb’s bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

Jon trembled. “I will never father a bastard,” he said carefully. “Never!” He spat it out like venom

“Let me give you some counsel, bastard,” Lannister said. “Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”

“I don’t even know who my mother was,” Jon said.

As you can see, the entire chapter is filled with "bastard self-awareness" within Jon. From the painful "joy" of not sitting with "boring royal offspring" to conversation with Benjen about NW, Jon, just as in the very first Jon's appearance in Bran's POV, shows signs of a child who suffers because of social status. These things are not fair (and Jon will tell Arya that when these two "outcasts" are watching boys fighting with the swords), but they are very much real. But, the bolded quote actually shows the origin of Jon's desire to join NW. He is aware of the future, with Robb becoming Lord, his brothers also having positions as well as his sisters. This is not some hasty decision, and we actually see that he has been contemplating and that in that process, the biggest concern is finding the place under the sky.

Catelyn Stark certainly had the role in drawing the lines between her children and Jon clearer, but the fact remains that even without her protectiveness those lines would be there. But, even with that, Jon's decision to join NW stems from several factors around his bastard status, something Catelyn has nothing to do with. All and all, it is safe to say, with the provided quotes that Jon has decided to go to NW mostly because of what he wanted to be and his own personal ambitions that has arisen from the unfairness he endured as a bastard.

[LordStoneheart]

Hello all! Just thought I'd check in real quick and say that this next weekend will be a little hectic for me but I hope to have the first intermediary chapter up. It will be much the same as the conversation going on right now, but I hope to possibly bring something of value to the table. After the post I may not be around to talk about it but I will try my hardest. Cheers, all. :)

[LordStoneheart]

So the past week has been filled with talk of the Cat/Jon/Ned dynamic. And to be sure, it is a three-way dynamic. It is not just Cat vs Jon. It is not evil stepmother versus male Cinderella. It is a complex issue, and one that is extremely controversial and polarizing. As such, I will stress very much that we remain civil with each other and the characters. There will be no unreasonable Cat hate nor any Jon hate.

Now, onto the chapter at hand.

Jon II

Overview:

Jon Snow says his goodbyes before leaving for the Wall. He goes to Bran's bed where he has a tense encounter with Catelyn. He says goodbye to Robb, and pays Arya one last visit where he gifts her a thing sword, Needle.

My own thoughts:

This is possibly the most controversial subject when it comes to Catelyn. We've all seen it talked about many times. But I feel the focus here isn't where it should be. While many look at what Catelyn says and see it negatively, I truly feel there isn't enough focus on the context of the situation. Namely, Catelyn's current state. Let's for a moment focus on the descriptions rather than the words exchanged.

Lady Stark was there beside his bed. She had been there, day and night, for close on a fortnight. Not for a moment had she left Bran's side. She had her meals brought to her there, and chamber pots as well, and a small hard bed to sleep on, though it was said she had scarcely slept at all. She fed him herself, the honey and water and herb mixture that sustained life. Not once did she leave the room.

Lady Stark looked over. For a moment she did not seem to recognize him. Finally she blinked. "What are you doing here?" she asked in a voice strangely flat and emotionless.

Her face did not change. Her long auburn hair was dull and tangled. She looked as though she had aged twenty years. "You've said it. Now go away."

"I wanted him to stay here with me," Lady Stark said softly.

Jon watched her, wary. She was not even looking at him. She was talking to him, but for a part of her, it was as though he were not even in the room.

"I prayed for it," she said dully. "He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered."

Jon did not know what to say. "It wasn't your fault," he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. "I need none of your absolution, bastard."

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

Notice how much of a nervous wreck Catelyn is. And notice how with each icy thing she says to Jon, it seems to be coupled with a description of just how bad of a state she is in.

Catelyn is very obviously not herself. She is in full grieving mode. She has hardly ate or slept. She is a mess. And with good reason. Look at the description of Bran.

She was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw. This was not the Bran he remembered. The flesh had all gone from him. His skin stretched tight over bones like sticks. Under the blanket, his legs bent in ways that made Jon sick. His eyes were sunken deep into black pits; open, but they saw nothing. The fall had shrunken him somehow. He looked half a leaf, as if the first strong wind would carry him off to his grave.

This is a nightmarish description of a child (digression: CotF feel to it…). And the child’s mother is sitting there, waiting for him to either get better or die.

For how distraught she is, it's no wonder that she is going to be short with people. I assume we’ll get into that in the next chapter, so I'll just say that this state doesn't stop here. This may be a unique occurrence between Jon and Cat, but Jon is not the only person she snaps at. Bran is her "special boy" and she is both feeling guilty that she prayed for him to stay and worried that he will die, all on top of her husband and two daughters leaving for an unknown time.

I can't speak for everyone, but I find the context of the situation more important than the words. Here are my own basic thoughts about "it should have been you."

Was it wrong to say it?

Yes

But is it understandable considering the circumstances?

Yes

Is it ultimately forgivable?

Yes

Is it worth dwelling on when judging her entire character?

Not at all.

Now, one thing we might benefit from is asking ourselves “have we been here?” Have we been so distraught, stressed, sad, angry, lonely, or in grief that we let it consume us and maybe say or do stupid things? I know I have. I’ve lashed out at those who don’t deserve it, and while I won’t say it’s an excusable action, it is certainly one I hope worthy of understanding and forgiveness.

Meta/Structure:

Now, what are we the readers supposed to make of this? What did the author intend? Well, on more than one occasion GRRM has commented on the theme of "the heart in conflict with itself." I'd like to touch on both how Catelyn is an example of this, and perhaps us readers. By setting up the POV structure the way he has, he's given us certain conflicts. Tyrion and Daenerys are both given to us sympathetically, but they're both "the enemy" since the Starks are initially set up as the heroes. By conflict, I guess I don't mean we have to choose between Jon and Cat. I certainly don't hate Jon. I love Jon. But I also love Cat and this is an aspect that many Cat readers do have to realize as a flaw. And with all the context, to me it’s a very understandable and forgivable flaw.

And for good measure, here is GRRM’s famous quote on the matter.

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?
"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.
And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

Here are some very insightful links:

The Cat-Ned-Jon debacle – a great thread by butterbumps! about the issue

Jon II, Cat II – posts from the Jon Snow Re-read project dealing with the same

Catelyn Underrated – a great video by Danzie that touches a bit on the subject. (It’s show-related and goes way past where we are, but it’s one of my favorites)

(A big thank you to Mladen, butterbumps!, Lum, and Danzie for their previous work! It really helped with the direction I chose for this...)

[BearQueen87]

So the past week has been filled with talk of the Cat/Jon/Ned dynamic. And to be sure, it is a three-way dynamic. It is not just Cat vs Jon. It is not evil stepmother versus male Cinderella. It is a complex issue, and one that is extremely controversial and polarizing. As such, I will stress very much that we remain civil with each other and the characters. There will be no unreasonable Cat hate nor any Jon hate.

Now, onto the chapter at hand.

Jon II

Very nice job, Lord Stoneheart!

I don't have a whole lot to add at the moment, but like you (and something GRRM said in the SSM you quoted) I am of the opinion that this is the one and only time Cat has ever said something caustic and negative directly to Jon's face. While we do know that Cat has been speaking to Ned, for years, behind closed doors, about sending Jon away, I don't think she ever looked across the dinner table and told Jon to "get out" or anything else. In fact, I think for the past 15ish years, Cat has just tried to keep her distance, physically and verbally, from Jon. This is a one off, and yes, an understandable one off at that.

There is a sense of intrusion here. Jon, IMO, has the right to say goodbye to his little brother whom he deeply loves. But this is also an intrusion on Cat's grief which is what she's responding to. Jon alone isn't the recipient of some snippish and angry behavior from Cat, as Lord Stoneheart points out. This idea of intrusion is in the text as well:

Jon climbed the steps slowly, trying not to think that this might be the last time ever. Ghost padded silently beside him. Outside, snow swirled through the castle gates and the yard was all noise and choas, but inside the thick stone walls it was still warm and quiet. Too quiet for Jon's liking.

And when Jon is leaving:

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

Jon is witness to something that Cat would rather people not bear witness to, which is her own distress over Bran. Jon's presence is like the noise and chaos outside and he brings that into Bran's sick room, a reminder that there is a world beyond Bran's sickroom. Cat's sole focus is Bran (100% understandable) and it just so happens that the reminder of the world beyond this room is coming from the boy who reminds her of her husband's infidelity.

As for Jon himself, Mladen wrote up thread a very good piece about how self-aware Jon is. Jon is also aware of everyone else. Jon is a very keen observer, something we learn in Bran's first POV

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.

So in our current chapter, Jon sees exactly what Cat is going through and he doens't begrudge Cat's reaction to him. When Robb asks how Cat treated him, Jon says "She was...very kind" and Robb's reaction is relief. Jon understands Cat's grief and he understands that what Robb needs to hear right now is not that Cat said something unkind but to reassurance.

[Lyanna Stark]

Great job Lord Stoneheart!

This is a difficult chapter to read. Cat is so extremely distraught, everyone is distraught and Jon is leaving. It's a chapter around breaking up and breaking away and things breaking apart, in a way. Of goodbyes.

With regards to Cat, we've seen that she's in a state of complete breakdown and when Jon enters, he thinks that she's not really conscious of him being there, or at least not wholly. Like others pointed out, she's held it within her for so long that Jon is a thorn hidden in her otherwise unhappy marriage. Now when she is at the breaking point or beyond that point, she cannot contain it anymore. Instead she pours out the vitriol, which Jon has to sit there and take. It's not nice, it's not fair and it's not right, but at that point in time, Cat has no barriers left and no way to contain it.

I don't know if anyone else has sat by their very sick child's side. Unfortunately, I had to go through that this winter with my not yet one year old son and it was one of the worst experiences of my life. You try to keep it together, but it is so very difficult and you feel so extremely powerless. Cat's case is even worse as although my son was very ill, his life was not in immidiate danger. In this case, I can sympathise with Cat, even if I can absolutely say that she wronged Jon and hurt him.

If I recall correctly, when she travels to the Eyrie later, she does think of Jon Snow, and not in an angry or mean way. Something to look out for once we get there.

So in our current chapter, Jon sees exactly what Cat is going through and he doens't begrudge Cat's reaction to him. When Robb asks how Cat treated him, Jon says "She was...very kind" and Robb's reaction is relief. Jon understands Cat's grief and he understands that what Robb needs to hear right now is not that Cat said something unkind but to reassurance.

Oh I am sure he's not exactly happy about it and he's hurt by her comments (in fact Jon is pretty sardonic when he thinks about Cat later, with regards to the Eyrie feeding the Nights Watch and he wonders how Cat would have felt about that), but he's also conscious of the fact that telling Robb won't achieve anything and won't make anything better for Bran, himself or Robb. The restraint and compassion Cat could not show in her broken down state Jon could manage instead.

[BastardlyRock]

snip

Great work LordStoneheart! :cheers:

You've touched on all of the quotes I would consider using for an analysis, and your emphasis of Cat's state of mind during this dialogue is dead-on. The one quick thing I'd like to say is this: They say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, well a mother grieving very well should be included in that sentiment. Having sadly spent my fair share of time around grieving mothers I can promise you they say things they wouldn't otherwise say. Hurtful, spiteful, mean-spirited things. Things they regret saying, to be sure. This is doubly the case with Cat, who is also emotionally, physically and mentally exhausted, as you perfectly pointed out. That being said, it doesn't excuse them, and it doesn't mean that there wasn't some inkling (and sometimes more than an inkling) of truth in what they said. By truth I mean some part of Cat, arguably a large part, did feel it should have been Jon. She may even regret feeling that way (as I believe she does) but it doesn't mean that she did not feel that way when she said it. A low point for her, to be sure, but I 100% agree with you that it is an understandable and forgivable moment... even by Jon... ultimately.... possibly. Nice work again!

[Julia H.]

I can't speak for everyone, but I find the context of the situation more important than the words. Here are my own basic thoughts about "it should have been you."

Was it wrong to say it?

Yes

But is it understandable considering the circumstances?

Yes

Is it ultimately forgivable?

Yes

Is it worth dwelling on when judging her entire character?

Not at all.

I agree with everything in your post, but I especially like the part above. :agree:

What I can add is that Catelyn, who is strictly Lady Stark from Jon's POV, has just let Jon see her weakness – her grief and her guilt – probably for the first time. Jon sympathizes with her, I think, partly because, perceptive as he is, he understands what is going on and also because he, too, is grieving, even crying, for Bran and he also expresses a sense of guilt over not coming to see Bran before. Therefore Catelyn and Jon have very similar feelings, grief and guilt and loss, the typical components of mourning. In a way, this may be the moment when they feel the closest to each other.

When Jon enters the room, they are depicted as enemies. Jon is afraid and defiant and compares Catelyn to whatever dangers a man of the Night's Watch must face. Catelyn tells him to go and talks about guards.

But then she lets down her guard as Jon tells Bran he is sorry and starts crying, saying goodbye to Bran with simple, loving words. He is obviously not the first person who has shared Catelyn's grief. Ned, Robb, the girls must have been there, too. We don't have Catelyn's POV here, but I find it possible that for a moment Jon feels like family to her, someone who shares her feelings, who shares the feelings the whole family must feel. And she opens up and confesses the guilt that she perhaps has not put into words before.

Then, when Jon offers a simple, sympathetic answer, she realizes what she has done. Perhaps she tries to regain control, she wants to assert herself as Lady Stark again.

"I need none of your absolution, bastard."

For a moment, they have been quite close, but Catelyn is not ready for that. She will keep her distance and she reminds Jon of who he is. Although we are in Jon's POV, we see no negative reaction to either the rejection or the insult.

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it.

Even at this moment, they are quite "physically" united by Bran as they hold his hands. Ned wanted Bran to "bridge the distance" between Robb and Joffrey. Here Bran bridges the distance between Catelyn and Jon if only for a brief moment.

Then Jon leaves, but Catelyn makes him turn back from the door by calling out his name.

He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

Then she says those terrible words, then turns back to Bran, weeping and sobbing. It is as though a dam had been removed, there is an outburst of emotions, the confession of guilt, the sobs, some of her darkest emotions surfacing as well.

Jon had never seen her cry before.

What has just happened between Catelyn and Jon is quite an intimate, though also an ambivalent moment. There are a lot of "first things" in this scene - Catelyn calling Jon by his name, Jon seeing Catelyn cry. Perhaps it is also the first time Jon has defied Catelyn like this. At the beginning of the scene, "she did not seem to recognize him". Now she looks at him as she has never looked at him before. That and saying Jon's name may even suggest that in this shared moment of grief she "recognizes" him for a moment for what he is, a brother to her children. The body language and some of what has been said seem to be in sharp contrast with the cruelty of that infamous line.

I think Jon reacts, emotionally, to the whole scene. While he obviously wants to spare Robb some pain when he tells him that Catelyn was "very kind", he can also sense the complexity of Catelyn's behaviour. Catelyn is indeed not quite herself, and Jon just happens to be starting a new life, one that means giving up his family. IIRC, neither of them recalls this scene later on.

[Julia H.]

One more observation on the "it should have been you" line. I'm not saying this interpretation is going to be what the author intended or that it is the main significance of what Cateleyn said, but I think it can be a kind of added meaning hidden behind the mainstream interpretation.

We have talked about Ned being a "pater familias", who has the final say in every decision in Winterfell and Cat, a dutiful wife, owing obedience to him. Cat is very much aware of this duty, yet she has a strong will of her own, and we have also seen that she is as much a partner to Ned as possible under medieval circumstances. When they discuss what to do with the children, Cat opposes Ned's will on two points: Bran and Jon. Ned wants Bran to go to King's Landing and he wants Jon to remain in Winterfell with Robb and Catelyn. Catelyn vehemently objects to the plan regarding Jon and feels happy when a solution suddenly presents itself. She formally agrees to Ned's wish regarding Bran (apparently accepting his reasoning), but she continues to defy it in her heart and she actively prays for a change in Ned's decision.

The answer she gets to her prayers is tragic and cruel. Now Bran must stay in Winterfell while Jon is going away, as she wished, but she could not be unhappier. I'm not saying that in her grief and bitterness she does not want to hurt Jon at this moment. But, among other things, perhaps she also realizes that, after all, it should have been as Ned wanted. If that is the price to pay, then Bran should have gone to KL with Ned, and Jon Snow (who has made his own decision to go away) should have stayed in Winterfell. Her wish being "granted" in such a cruel way is the most horrible punishment she can get for her disobedience.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Very well done Lord Stoneheart, you did a great job especially in highlighting Catelyn's state of collapse.

A parallel for the infamous "it should have been you", from The Princess and the Queen:

East of Blackwater Bay, Queen Rhaenyra was also faring badly. The death of her son Lucerys had been a crushing blow to a woman already broken by pregnancy, labor, and stillbirth. When word reached Dragonstone that Princess Rhaenys had fallen, angry words were exchanged between the queen and Lord Velaryon, who blamed her for his wife’s death. “It should have been you,” the Sea Snake shouted at Her Grace. “Staunton sent to you, yet you left it to my wife to answer, and forbade your sons to join her!” For as all the castle knew, the princes Jace and Joff had been eager to fly with Princess Rhaenys to Rook’s Rest with their own dragons.

A grieving husband says this exact phrase to a grieving mother...

Raenyra's breakdown matches Catelyn's (and Jace rising up to the situation and taking responsibility in his mother's place matches Robb's).

What brought Lord Velaryon to say this particular thing to Rhaenyra is quite clear, but for Catelyn not so much. I will try to address this later in my post.

Regarding the scene, this sums it up for me perfectly:

With regards to Cat, we've seen that she's in a state of complete breakdown and when Jon enters, he thinks that she's not really conscious of him being there, or at least not wholly. Like others pointed out, she's held it within her for so long that Jon is a thorn hidden in her otherwise unhappy marriage. Now when she is at the breaking point or beyond that point, she cannot contain it anymore. Instead she pours out the vitriol, which Jon has to sit there and take. It's not nice, it's not fair and it's not right, but at that point in time, Cat has no barriers left and no way to contain it.

I think that the scene does not really add much to what we already know about Cat's feelings regarding Jon, but rather that it exposes a dark side of Catelyn's psyche, one that exists "sleeping" in every human and stirs under extreme distress. The need to lash out (she does it again later on), to hurt someone as if this would release her own pain... It's only "normal" (for the lack of a more fitting word) that the object of her bitterness will get the worst part of it.

The underlined part is important, I think. Catelyn has had to cope with her feelings all those years alone.

"We don’t want you here". Bran cannot speak for himself and Catelyn here feels "entitled" to speak for him, but regarding Bran's feelings for Jon this is not true at all; Jon knows that, we know that and more importantly, Catelyn knows too.

Catelyn has been absolutely commendable in that she did not pass on her feelings to her children; but I sense that this very thing adds to the feeling that she's the odd one out in her family, to a feeling of isolation.

Regarding her feelings for "the Jon situation", she has had no one to open her heart to, someone close enough to confess her fears and sorrows, someone who could empathize with her and even criticize her while "taking her side" - that's what true friends do. In this sense, ARYa_Nym's observation upthread, that Catelyn does not have friends of her own in Winterfell, is important. Now in her state of breakdown, sharing Bran's suffering more than anyone, she "drags" Bran to "her side".

@Julia H.,

Amazing observations!

Bran's bed as a boundary and Bran's hands as the means to transcend it, is a very strong imagery.

The "I need none of your absolution" somehow bothers me more than the "it should have been you". I like a lot the way you break down the scene and my own thoughts are on the same wavelength.

We don't have Cat's POV and her thoughts in this are not so evident. Her state of extreme distress makes it even more difficult. Trying to follow Cat's stream of conscious and subconscious thoughts that lead her to express herself the way she does in this scene, both in speech and body language, will unavoidably employ a lot of speculation (and a good dose of armchair psychology from my part, so if any experts are reading this, feel free to be harsh if you spot scientifically nonsensical ideas :) )

Catelyn feels guilty for her wish that Bran, her "special child" stays with her. She feels that the gods have punished her for this wish... why? And why it's Jon's presence that stirs her need to confess? Why to him, of all people?

Jon is Ned's special child, not in the sense that Ned has a preference or a special affection for Jon but quite literally. Of all Ned's children, Jon is not Catelyn's. Jon is the bastard, a "love child" but this euphemism might take a deeper meaning in Cat's mind: Jon is what is left to Ned by his lost "true love".

So, Catelyn has insisted that Ned's "special child" leaves and has prayed for her own to stay. Jon might be connected this way in Cat's guilt, and this might be the reason why Cat confesses to him. Then, as Julia H. noted, Jon's response "wakes her up".

I feel there is a fight within her, the aknowledgment that she has been unfair and the guilt about it versus her accumulated bitterness born from feelings of hurt pride and insecurity. Jon's kindness, not really surprisingly, triggers the opposite feelings in Cat: She is fighting her own sense of guilt; she feels that all those years she has been wronged too; and therefore, that the gods are cruel and unfair to punish her this way. Thus the rejection of his "absolution", and the "it sould have been you" could perhaps be understood in this sense. When she actually says it loud, guilt takes over again and she breaks to tears...

ETA: I wrote this before I read Julia's latest post. Now I feel more confident about this idea :)

(@Lyanna, very sorry to hear about your baby... I wish you both the best for the future.)