The Jon Snow ReRead Project!

[Melonica Stormborn]

It is interesting to me that the two people that Jon is captivated by are Tyrion and Jaime. Both Lannister boys have a flaw, a black mark against their name. Is he drawn to them because of their imperfections? It can't be because Robert is as flawed as a human can get and Jon dismisses him instantly. It's not just their looks because he notes CErsei's beauty but is turned off by her false smile. Maybe it's Tyrion's and Jaime's lack of fake-ness he finds captivating? Their lack of self-consciousness would appeal to sensitive Jon, I bet.

It could very well be. On the get go, we know that Tyrion is an outsider. When we got the Jaime chapters, we also realize that he's as much an outsider as Tyrion. Jaime is shielding himself with the Kingslayer title as much as Tyrion is shielding himself with his deformity. There might be some affinity there.

[Fire Eater]

Didn't anyone find it ironic that Jon was hoping to see Robert, the man who killed Jon's actual father?

Also, the chicken slides between his legs. The chicken is described as honeyed, and Val is noted several times for her honey-colored hair. When we first meet Mance Rayder's wife, Dalla, Queen-beyond-the-Wall, she is cooking chickens. Cersei is served by Harys Swyft, the knight of the yellow chicken and Pycelle, who is described as having a chicken neck.

The chicken could be representative of the title of queen, and the honeyed chicken (Val) sliding between his legs may give us a hint. :leer:

[Synteis]

@ Lady of Long Lake, thank you.

The chicken could be queen, and the honeyed chicken sliding between his legs may give us a hint. :leer:

This just gives me the disturbing image of a honey-covered chicken lady queen sliding between Jon's legs, which is a most disturbing. Edit: Though upon rereading the quote, GRRM makes it terribly suggestive to begin with.

[Mladen]

Didn't anyone find it ironic that Jon was hoping to see Robert, the man who killed Jon's actual father?

Also, the chicken slides between his legs. The chicken is described as honeyed, and Val is noted several times for her honey-colored hair. When we first meet Mance Rayder's wife, Dalla, Queen-beyond-the-Wall, she is cooking chickens. Cersei is served by Harys Swyft, the knight of the yellow chicken and Pycelle, who is described as having a chicken neck.

The chicken could be queen, and the honeyed chicken sliding between his legs may give us a hint. :leer:

Well, Jon wanted to see the real deal, a heroic figure, great fighter and great King. And Robert wasn`t that. Ironically, when he sees Robert, he knows he isn`t the `real King`, and that`s basically the best observation of Robert`s reign - a great disappointment.

As for chicken, honestly I don`t see any reference to future events. I may have missed it, true, but I don`t see it.

[Lummel]

Welcome to everyone posting and reading along! Jon Snow isn't a character I feel particular enthusiasm for and coming to him from Tyrion where we discussed some very rich themes I wonder quite what we might be able to find within his chapters. Obviously given Learning to Lead we will be picking up on some the ideas from that thread, but also will be taking the opportunity to have a look at the North and some of the elements associated with that.

More specifically I'm glad that Butterbumps! started us off with Bran I. This gives us our first taste of Jon's stark upbringing. What Bran experienced there witnessing his first execution was something that Jon would have experienced before him. When Jon tells Bran to keep his pony well in hand and not to look away because father will know if he does we're seeing Jon training Bran in the Stark way. Presumably at another execution somebody did look away, either Robb or Jon and The Ned did notice.

Anyhow we now take a step further with:

Jon II AGOT

Overview

This an infamous chapter with “it should have been you” perhaps the single most quoted and argued over line in all the Jon chapters to date. It consists of Jon saying his farewells to Bran, Robb and Arya and comes sandwiched in between Tyrion I “you know how much I love my family” and Daenerys II “wed Khal Drogo with fear and barbaric splendor”. In other words this part of the book is all about families., specifically as some guy wrote "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

Observations

• “snow swirled through the castle gates” - "A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You'll dance with me anon." ADWD p779
  
• “You Starks are hard to kill”. Heh heh.
  

Analysis

Structure/place

These early chapters all seems to me to be giving insights into the family dynamic. This is setting the scene for the story to come and a warning that these dynamics are the drivers of the plot. This is the source of the politics. This is going to be a story about families and how to survive them.

The three chapters here: Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys all have a two step structure. From sad to happy.

Tyrion's chapter is contained within the castle. Jon has a contrast between the outside, the snows are swirling but it is also busy and lively while the inside although warm has people alone with their sorrows in separate cells. There's uncertainty and anxiety about the outside and adult life but there's more of a sense of purpose and activity about it. Daenerys moves completely from a hostile interior world to consummate her marriage in the free wide open. The outside might here represent the open frontier, freedom and possibilities.

Family

First off we see Jon saying goodbye to Bran, Robb and Arya. We are not shown him saying goodbyes to The Ned, Rickon or Sansa (or Theon or anyone else). Those first three are the key relationships for Jon.

The sense of a special relationship with Arya is underlined for us here. While Jon calls Robb Stark and he Jon Snow – emphasising Jon's social position and the social distance between them, Jon calls Arya “little sister”. This is clearly a particularly close and loving relationship for the two of them. They both have a shared history of making fun of Sansa, she's the only person that we see Jon give a present to (what about Old Nan? – oh how heartless Jon can be :crying: ).

While the Robb relationship is a driver in AGOT for Jon, the importance of the strength of those feelings and that relationship with Arya is something that doesn't become apparent until ADWD.

Finally the chapter shows us a good deal about the peculiarity of Jon's status. There's been tension between Jon and Catelyn but a close bond between Jon and Arya, Jon is able to get Mikken to make a sword without, as we learn eventually in an Arya chapter, The Ned ever knowing anything about this. He is an anomaly here - Snow in Winterfell even though the word play suggests this is uniquely his place, and, I suppose he will continue to be an anomaly as a noble volunteer, at the Wall.

Don't forget the handy page table at Tower of Hand if like me you struggle to find the chapters, and next time Jon III will be brought to you by Ragnorak :) .

[butterbumps!]

First, welcome to the forum, Synteis and Father of Hosts! Also, nice summary, Lum.

Since I happen to be reading the intermediary chapters during this project, I thought I’d pull out a few notable Jon interactions:

CAT II

This is the chapter in which Lysa’s (well, Littlefinger’s really) letter is brought to Cat and Ned, and they discuss how to proceed with Ned’s Hand appointment. Of particular interest are Cat’s thoughts on Jon’s parentage and her feelings toward him, as well as the cost-benefit analysis of Jon’s joining the NW as a solution to his uncertain future. I know the Cat-Jon dynamic is one of the more controversial topics on here, and I’m hesitant to bring that debate in here too. But since this is a reread and Jon II contains that “it should have been you” line, I feel that it has to be addressed in some capacity.

Cat’s thoughts in her chapter explain her perspective on the situation quite well: it’s specifically the fact that Jon’s presence is inescapable, combined with the fact that Ned has insisted that the topic of Jon’s mother is taboo that evokes her coldness toward Jon:

“What of Jon Snow, my lord?” Maester Luwin asked.

Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were

more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Further to this, that Ned refuses to speak of Jon’s mother reinforces the feeling that he loved her more than he could ever love Cat, which feels like constant, implicit rejection and humilation:

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for

nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. “Jon must go,” she said now.

It’s probably quite clear to many of you that I’m a huge Jon fan; as it pertains, I’m also deeply sympathetic to Cat (and Ned as well) on the issue of Cat’s feelings toward Jon here. It is clear from these passages that Cat had tried to love Jon, but being human, she simply couldn’t. She never forgives Ned for keeping Jon’s parentage so taboo and for keeping Jon forever in her sight, but she is able to love her husband anyway. Cat knows that she is cold to Jon, and acknowledges this in her chapter. I know, it is not “right” to treat an innocent child coldly regardless of the circumstances, and if she feels this way, she ought to take it up with Ned, who is the real object of her confliction here.

But I think this is one of the first instances of “the heart in conflict with itself” that we come across, and ought not be a categorical condemnation of Cat. Cat’s feelings are very visceral and very real; for very good reason, Ned has made an extremely uncomfortable family situation that is fair to no one. The very things that would ease Cat’s mind are the very things Ned cannot grant her. Cat recognizes that she sublimates her feelings toward Ned to Jon, but I think the crux of this issue is the fact that this is a coping mechanism since Ned decisively blocked off any communication to that end (“the only time he frightened her”).

I’m a fan of all three characters, and the way I reconcile it is to accept the “objective wrongness” of transferring coldness from Ned onto an innocent, but also to deeply sympathize with her reasons for feeling this way. I also find it difficult to be angry at Ned’s responses to this issue, because despite the fact that he “created” this unpleasantness, he hadn’t had tremendous choice in the matter without risking a few lives, Jon’s included. It’s just a very sad, no-win circumstance. Anyway, that’s my thoughts on the issue.

Finally, the issue of the NW is discussed as a solution to separating Jon from Cat at Winterfell. Luwin informs then that Jon has spoken to Benjen about taking the Black. Cat thinks this is a perfect solution, as it would prevent Jon from contesting inheritance with her sons, as well as the fact that Jon could get affection there from Benjen. On the other hand, the prospect of Jon joining the Watch makes Ned sad; he thinks Jon should be older, and it’s clear that he doesn’t realize that the choice had been as considered by Jon as it was:

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Maester Luwin said, “There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.”

“And even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch,” Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. “Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …”

ARYA I

This chapter could have the alternate title “nothing is fair.” It opens with a sewing lesson shared by Arya, Sansa, Jeyne, Beth and Myrcella, overseen by Septa Mordane. After becoming extremely frustrated, Arya leaves the lesson in favor of watching the boys at training. She finds Jon, also excluded from the sword lesson, and they discuss certain injustices of the world. A full breakdown of this chapter can be found here (thanks to Lyanna, Brash and Rapsie!)

Jon’s sitting on the sill of a bridge between the Great Keep and the armory; I find symbolic value in this, as it plants both Jon and Arya in an space of limbo/ connection between titles and fighting, a theme reinforced by their discussion of inheriting arms:

“Look at the arms on his surcoat,” Jon suggested.

Arya looked. An ornate shield had been embroidered on the prince’s padded surcoat. No doubt the needlework was exquisite. The arms were divided down the middle; on one side was the crowned stag of the royal House, on the other the lion of Lannister.

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested. Jon chuckled.

“Perhaps you should do the same thing, little sister. Wed Tully to Stark in your arms.”

“A wolf with a fish in its mouth?” It made her laugh. “That would look silly. Besides, if a girl can’t fight, why should she have a coat of arms?”

Jon shrugged. “Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

There’s a particular closeness between Arya and Jon, reinforced by their uniquely similar appearance, as well as their shared existence between societal norms: “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.” Neither Jon nor Arya is allowed to train today regardless of their desire to or ability.

As in Bran’s chapter, Jon is seen through the eyes of an adoring sibling, and again, we have an instance of Jon’s having to confront his bastard status as a means of reassuring or protecting his siblings: “When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.”

I agree with some of the comments from the previous chapter that stated Jon’s judgments of the Lannisters to be somewhat pre-emptive, that Jon had no reason by that point to have come to certain conclusions. Yet, here we see that Jon was actually correct to surmise Joffrey’s malfeasance, as the boy puts on an infuriating display of malice toward Roderick, Robb, the Stark family and Winterfell as a whole. His observations about the Lannister pride and quartered coat of arms is, in this particular case, the truth of the matter, and revealing a bit more than anyone expects at this point regarding Joff’s parentage. Joffrey’s behavior proves Jon’s assertion that he is “truly a little shit,” perhaps confirming Jon’s intuition as correct in determining character.

Jon is very quiet he processes the previous scene: “Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window.” He advises her to face her punishment sooner than later, ending with a line frequently cited as foreshadowing: “You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

BRAN II

This is where Bran goes climbing and falls, with little mention of Jon other than a report on Jon’s increased brooding and anger:

Bran had been left behind with Jon and the girls and Rickon. But Rickon was only a baby and the girls were only girls and Jon and his wolf were nowhere to be found. Bran did not look for him very hard. He thought Jon was angry at him. Jon seemed to be angry at everyone these days. Bran did not know why. He was going with Uncle Ben to the Wall, to join the Night’s Watch. That was almost as good as going south with the king. Robb was the one they were leaving behind, not Jon.

It is interesting that Jon’s been harboring this anger in light of the fact that he had wanted to take the Black. I wonder if some of it may be a sense of regret over locking himself into this permanent life choice, as well as heavy sadness over leaving his family—he’s the only one who will be without a Stark sibling in this breakdown. So Bran is correct—Jon isn’t being left behind, but perhaps it’s precisely the fact that he’s the one leaving that’s evoking this brooding.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I'd like to bring up some of Jon's descriptions relating to Bran in Jon II, which I'm sure others have noticed before.

She was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw.

She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds.

Bird imagery in particular to describe Bran's weak and almost skeletal state is very telling about Bran's story arc. The next Bran chapter also starts with 3EC telling bran to fly. .

His eyes were sunken deep into black pits; open but they saw nothing.

Another seeing reference and might pertain to his fall awakening his third eye. At this point the near-death experience already ensured the spiritual awareness, but he was yet to meet 3EC and come out of the coma.

Honey figures in again: Catelyn fed Bran "honey and water and herb mixture that sustained life". I'm not sure if Val is the only person (not chicken) to receive description relating to honey but this might suggest a connection with Val's healing capabilities?

Going back to Jon:

Jon II not only showed the Stark family dynamic, for me it showed Jon being brave by facing his fear, following Ned's word. He was very anxious about facing Cat but handled the situation with grace. I have nothing against Cat, I truly understand where she's coming from, but she represented something that Jon needed to overcome to do what needs to be done. And indeed, we saw through his arc that he was forced into situations where he had to do things that he'd rather not do or got him on the chopping block. He was right in saying that he'd face far worse than Catelyn Stark in the Nights Watch.

The Arya-Jon dynamic was just heartwarming and even until ADwD their attachment to each other was apparent; Jon was willing to risk a lot for her, and Needle was Arya's last hold to her real self. Here the Braavos-Arya connection was already subtly hinted. Jon's quote about different roads leading to the same castle made me think that they'd either meet again or unknowingly work towards similar goals down the road. I'm thinking in particular of the Faceless Men and Iron Bank connection.

[Winterfellian]

Nice job Lummel! Not much to add right now, except for this:

The three chapters here: Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys all have a two step structure. From sad to happy.

Tyrion's chapter is contained within the castle. Jon has a contrast between the outside, the snows are swirling but it is also busy and lively while the inside although warm has people alone with their sorrows in separate cells. There's uncertainty and anxiety about the outside and adult life but there's more of a sense of purpose and activity about it. Daenerys moves completely from a hostile interior world to consummate her marriage in the free wide open. The outside might here represent the open frontier, freedom and possibilities.

I think this stands in direct contrast with the way Jon describes Winterfell in his first chapter after he steps out of the feast:

The castle was dark and deserted. Jon had seen an abandoned holdfast once, a drear place where nothing moved but the wind and the stones kept silent about whatever people had lived there. Winterfell reminded him of that tonight.

Foreshadowing aside whereas in Jon I the swirling of noise, music and people was in the warm inside while the outside stood as a desolate holdfast now it is the other way around. Everyone inside is cope inside their own sorrows and even isolated from others (Arya is kept in her room against her will, Bran is in a deep coma and Cat has been coped in Bran's room since the incident).

I think another association with adult life and the outside is provided by the summer snows melting in Robb's hair (that all Stark kids remember later) given what Ned said in Cat's previous chapter:

I would sooner let Jon enjoy this last few days. Summer will end soon and childhood as well.

@Bumps! Love your take on Cat and Jon dynamic

[Manderlay]

It’s probably quite clear to many of you that I’m a huge Jon fan; as it pertains, I’m also deeply sympathetic to Cat (and Ned as well) on the issue of Cat’s feelings toward Jon here. It is clear from these passages that Cat had tried to love Jon, but being human, she simply couldn’t. She never forgives Ned for keeping Jon’s parentage so taboo and for keeping Jon forever in her sight, but she is able to love her husband anyway. Cat knows that she is cold to Jon, and acknowledges this in her chapter. I know, it is not “right” to treat an innocent child coldly regardless of the circumstances, and if she feels this way, she ought to take it up with Ned, who is the real object of her confliction here..

Finally, the issue of the NW is discussed as a solution to separating Jon from Cat at Winterfell. Luwin informs then that Jon has spoken to Benjen about taking the Black. Cat thinks this is a perfect solution, as it would prevent Jon from contesting inheritance with her sons, as well as the fact that Jon could get affection there from Benjen. On the other hand, the prospect of Jon joining the Watch makes Ned sad; he thinks Jon should be older, and it’s clear that he doesn’t realize that the choice had been as considered by Jon as it was:

It is interesting that Jon’s been harboring this anger in light of the fact that he had wanted to take the Black. I wonder if some of it may be a sense of regret over locking himself into this permanent life choice, as well as heavy sadness over leaving his family—he’s the only one who will be without a Stark sibling in this breakdown. So Bran is correct—Jon isn’t being left behind, but perhaps it’s precisely the fact that he’s the one leaving that’s evoking this brooding.

First of all another good post :thumbsup:

Right now I cant think of much to add but I will say this;

I wouldn't be deeply sympathetic to cat, I would be understanding as to Catelyn's feelings towards Jon and I do no think Cat ever tried to love Jon - "Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love

Jon."

I think Cat felt guilty about how she had always been cold towards Jon, however her guilt was not as strong as her feelings of rejection and humiliation when she asked Ned about Jons mother, IIRC in further chapters in the books Jon thinks how catelyn had never let him forget that he was bastard (I may be wrong about this)

NW - I think Jon chose the NW because of his bastard status, and I find this vey disappointing that no one had offered him any alternatives, Ned although he approved of Jon going to the wall with regret, he did it because he also loved catelyn and knew that with him gone, catelyn would never have Jon in winterfell, which I also found disappointing as Eddard Stark is still my most fav character and never thought of alternatives like sending Jon to some lord and gain knighthood and try earn respect, as in the north people judge by someones actions and not knighthood. For Cat it was the perfect solution, she would never have to see Jon again in winterfell.

However I agree with your analysis and its more well put.

Bran noticing Jons anger, tells us that how Jon still regrets his choice of joining the NW but he must go forward with it because of his bastrad status, he will never see other places and forever serve at the wall a cold place, no wonder he is angry, he must also be secretly thinking why none among his family especially his father is trying to stop him from going to the wall (take him to KL) and have him by his side, somewhat childish and young thoughts but that is what happens when you are faced with something like serving on the wall. Although this last part I have sort of guessed so correct If have misread jons feelings.

[Mladen]

Lummel, first and foremost, let me say that this is a wonderful analysis of Jon`s chapters, and like everything we read from you, it`s insightful, beautifully written and gives a lot to think about

Overview

This an infamous chapter with “it should have been you” perhaps the single most quoted and argued over line in all the Jon chapters to date. It consists of Jon saying his farewells to Bran, Robb and Arya and comes sandwiched in between Tyrion I “you know how much I love my family” and Daenerys II “wed Khal Drogo with fear and barbaric splendor”. In other words this part of the book is all about families., specifically as some guy wrote "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

As you cleverly noticed, Lummel, these first chapters are all about family. From finding the wolf pack, to understanding Jon`s position in Stark household, his interaction with Arya, Robb and Bran, and lastly Catelyn`s feelings towards him. In these chapters we see how strong Starks are united, that by being that wolf pack, they can protect each other. And now as for Tolstoy`s line from Anna Karenina (that would be some guy :) ), it`s all about families. Tolstoy made that very clear with the first sentence in Anna Karenina, and GRRM has basically done the same with several chapters. And just like Anna died as punishment for breaking the family, we see how people pay for breaking Stark family (Joffrey, Jaime, Theon).

As for `it should have been you` line, was it hatred or grief? Or, more likely both of it? For me, this was just grief and shock, mixed with hatred Cately feels for Jon. This cut deep, of course, but as we see, in both real life and ASOIAF, people in these situation tend to exaggerate a lot. For instance, you have Tywin`s `you are not son of mine`. These lines can`t be interpreted as literal truth or desire, it`s just the coping mechanism with something that came so out of blue, and crashed them into million pieces.

The sense of a special relationship with Arya is underlined for us here. While Jon calls Robb Stark and he Jon Snow – emphasising Jon's social position and the social distance between them, Jon calls Arya “little sister”. This is clearly a particularly close and loving relationship for the two of them. They both have a shared history of making fun of Sansa, she's the only person that we see Jon give a present to (what about Old Nan? – oh how heartless Jon can be :crying: ).

While the Robb relationship is a driver in AGOT for Jon, the importance of the strength of those feelings and that relationship with Arya is something that doesn't become apparent until ADWD.

Jon and Robb, Arya and Sansa. These two relationships, when you look at them, you can draw great parallel between them. Both Jon and Arya know they`ll never be like their siblings. Jon will never be Lord, and Arya will never be proper Lady like Sansa. And although this isn`t driving force for them, it gives us great perspective to see why the two of them are so close. Two outsiders that will never live up the heights of their siblings. And, I would disagree with you, Lummel, on this one. The importance and strength of this feelings, we see way earlier in FFC in Arya (when she refuses to renounce the Needle and hides it), but if you meant in Jon, then you are right.

And now, my 2 personal observations:

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. “I wish you were coming with us.” “Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?” He was feeling better now. He was not going to let himself be sad.

Foreshadowing, indeed. Knowing Jon`s true parentage, and his possible new status with Robb`s will, Arya`s, Sansa`s and Rickon`s whereabouts, and beginning of their return on different terms and roads, it gives us hope that was before can be once more. That Starks will reunite and find the strength they had before separation.

She giggled at him. “It’s so skinny.”

“So are you,” Jon told her. “I had Mikken make this special. The braavos use swords like this in Pentos and Myr and the other Free Cities. It won’t hack a man’s head off, but it can poke him full of holes if you’re fast enough.”

“I can be fast,” Arya said.

“You’ll have to work at it every day.” He put the sword in her hands, showed her how to hold it, and stepped back. “How does it feel? Do you like the balance?”

“I think so,” Arya said.

“First lesson,” Jon said. “Stick them with the pointy end.”

There is great difference between having a sword and using it. And Jon knows, as will Arya find out in her incident with Joffrey. But, this lesson isn`t just about using swords. When you have pointy end, you have to be fast in attack, just like wolf. You have to be calm for a second, and then attack and kill in one swift moment. And that`s why Needle is such appropriate weapon for Arya, skinny little wolf girl

Again, congratulations to Lummel for great analysis. And also to butterbumps, for tangling the web between separate threads on this forum, and uniting all of them. This is how things should be done.

[Lummel]

@Mladen seeing as this is a Jon reread I thought I'd keep my Jon hat on :laugh: yes I meant the strength of those feelings in Jon for Arya is something we get to see in ADWD, but yes, you are right it is something that we see in Arya in AFFC and iirc a couple of other places too.

Hopefully in future I'll remember to be a bit clearer :)

Er...presumably there are other relationships among the Starks, there is a fine post by Tze about the links between Sansa and Jon for instance, but GRRM chooses to bring out just a few key relationships in these two pre-Wall Jon chapters.

The influence of Robb-Jon is something that we get to see in this volume (hope that's not a spoiler for anyone ;) ). There will be a Bran-Jon connection in ACOK and ASOS and Arya-Jon is one that comes to the fore-front in ADWD.

I suppose one question to keep in mind, if we can say that Jon has past through three phases relating to those three relationships, is how far the end of Jon XIII ADWD is a hinge moment in his whole narrative arc. The close of ADWD is the end, perhaps, of the first half of the Jon story. We shall see.

[butterbumps!]

First of all another good post :thumbsup:

Right now I cant think of much to add but I will say this;

I wouldn't be deeply sympathetic to cat, I would be understanding as to Catelyn's feelings towards Jon and I do no think Cat ever tried to love Jon - "Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love

Jon."

I think Cat felt guilty about how she had always been cold towards Jon, however her guilt was not as strong as her feelings of rejection and humiliation when she asked Ned about Jons mother, IIRC in further chapters in the books Jon thinks how catelyn had never let him forget that he was bastard (I may be wrong about this)

I pretty much agree, and thought I should clarify something (though I know you weren't suggesting I said this, but just in case my post looked like I did). I definitely don't think anyone "should" feel deeply sympathetic to Cat's position-- that's my own personal response to her character and I happen to like her a great deal, but I don't by any means think that sympathy is imperative.

However, I do think that Martin, by having included this long explanation in her chapter, does want her "it should have been you" comment to be something that we dislike or feel uncomfortable with, but also to potentially forgive, or barring that, to at least understand where it comes from. I've never really thought of the Jon-Cat dynamic as an issue of morality or anything, and there's no textual evidence to suggest an active mistreatment (as well as Martin's statement that this comment was a one-time thing). I tend to think of it more as Cat's having both endured something unpleasant, and behaving according to a basic standard of decency (i.e. not interfering or mistreating). I know this is not ideal (and I know some posters consider this mistreatment on its own) because Jon is a child, and despite the fact that she doesn't have an imperative to do more, I will admit to this causing me some discomfort.

That being said, I think the Jon-Cat dynamic sits somewhat outside of a question morality to something more akin to the spectrum of interpersonal etiquette standards. I personally get an uncomfortable conflict, where I know it's not ideal, but have a lot of trouble classifying her behavior as negative, especially as it pertains to any sort of lasting damage to Jon; I think the comment you brought up about never forgetting he's a bastard and the one about "grudging bites of food" are the two times Jon reflects negatively.

Something I've wondered is whether Jon ever felt hurt enough to react, and if he had made his hurt feelings known, whether Cat would have changed her behavior? It's clear that Cat never wanted to cause Jon duress, so I'd wondered if such duress was made clear, whether it would have had an effect on anything. I'm inclined to think so, actually. Which brings up an interesting aspect of Jon's character-- the fact that I think he has a long history of not showing emotional reactions (if he felt any emotion from Cat's interactions at all), and keeping his thoughts hidden.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

I pretty much agree, and thought I should clarify something (though I know you weren't suggesting I said this, but just in case my post looked like I did). I definitely don't think anyone "should" feel deeply sympathetic to Cat's position-- that's my own personal response to her character and I happen to like her a great deal, but I don't by any means think that sympathy is imperative.

However, I do think that Martin, by having included this long explanation in her chapter, does want her "it should have been you" comment to be something that we dislike or feel uncomfortable with, but also to potentially forgive, or barring that, to at least understand where it comes from. I've never really thought of the Jon-Cat dynamic as an issue of morality or anything, and there's no textual evidence to suggest an active mistreatment (as well as Martin's statement that this comment was a one-time thing). I tend to think of it more as Cat's having both endured something unpleasant, and behaving according to a basic standard of decency (i.e. not interfering or mistreating). I know this is not ideal (and I know some posters consider this mistreatment on its own) because Jon is a child, and despite the fact that she doesn't have an imperative to do more, I will admit to this causing me some discomfort.

That being said, I think the Jon-Cat dynamic sits somewhat outside of a question morality to something more akin to the spectrum of interpersonal etiquette standards. I personally get an uncomfortable conflict, where I know it's not ideal, but have a lot of trouble classifying her behavior as negative, especially as it pertains to any sort of lasting damage to Jon; I think the comment you brought up about never forgetting he's a bastard and the one about "grudging bites of food" are the two times Jon reflects negatively.

Something I've wondered is whether Jon ever felt hurt enough to react, and if he had made his hurt feelings known, whether Cat would have changed her behavior? It's clear that Cat never wanted to cause Jon duress, so I'd wondered if such duress was made clear, whether it would have had an effect on anything. I'm inclined to think so, actually. Which brings up an interesting aspect of Jon's character-- the fact that I think he has a long history of not showing emotional reactions (if he felt any emotion from Cat's interactions at all), and keeping his thoughts hidden.

One of the things I get from the Cat/Jon relationship is that Cat's bad feelings aren't really always about Jon. I mean this in the sense that when ever Cat looks at Jon or interacts with him she sees Jon's mother and not Jon the person.

[Mladen]

Bird imagery in particular to describe Bran's weak and almost skeletal state is very telling about Bran's story arc. The next Bran chapter also starts with 3EC telling bran to fly. .

Melonica, I agree about this one, and nice catch about bird symbolism. Now, just to add one detail. Bran`s hand looks like claw, Jon was given the sword Longclaw, Orell ripped Jon`s face with eagle`s claws, and lastly as you said 3EC...There are a lot of references of claws in Jon`s arc, and I believe that Bran`s claw will be important in Jon`s chapters that are to come in WOW.

[Mladen]

One of the things I get from the Cat/Jon relationship is that Cat's bad feelings aren't really always about Jon. I mean this in the sense that when ever Cat looks at Jon or interacts with him she sees Jon's mother and not Jon the person.

Interestingly enough, Cat would see Jon`s mother (Lyanna) whenever she would look at Jon. Only, she would never know she saw her.

[Eating My Wings]

Interestingly enough, Cat would see Jon`s mother (Lyanna) whenever she would look at Jon. Only, she would never know she saw her.

I actually think that not particularly liking Jon and the mother is an evasive action Cat took in order not to blame Ned for fathering a bastard.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Cat didn't blame Ned for fathering a bastard, only blamed him for bringing Jon to Wintefell, always in her sight. Rubbing her nose in it.

[UVA]

Jon II not only showed the Stark family dynamic, for me it showed Jon being brave by facing his fear, following Ned's word. He was very anxious about facing Cat but handled the situation with grace. [snip]

He does buck up in this confrontation with Cat. But I wonder if, oddly, on some level he's jealous of Bran being so devotedly attended to by his mother. The motherloss or absence of a mother is a big part of Jon's self-image, at least in these early chapters. Because of this very tense dynamic between Jon-Cat-Ned (that I think butterbumps! spells out so well btw), Jon has never known this kind of devotion or affection. His ruminations on who his mother is/was reinforces this sense of longing; and here he sees a mother's love directed at someone else, and this maternal figure outright rebuffs him in the same scene.

[The guy from the Vale]

Of course, Cat is in some sense right to blame Jon's mother for Jon's life in Winterfell. It's Lyanna's fault in some way, after all, as understandable as it is... but without his promise to her, Ned would have a whole lot of other options. Of course, he wouldn't be the Ned we all love if he didn't promise what he did.

ETA: And bumps! manages to express my own feeligs on the Stark family dynamic masterfully. I love all of them - Ned and Cat and Jon, as well as Ned and Cat's children - and while I see "it should have been you" as far from Cat's finest hour, I never hated her for it. Jon is not her responsibility, never was her responsibility, and by not disclosing his parentage, Ned also made sure he would never become her responsibility. I wouldn't blame a woman who was cheated on by her husband in the first year of their marriage either if she hated the child her husband had from that marriage, and I would blame her even less if she didn't even know who the child's mother is, and never gets full disclosure about her. Her fears about Ned loving Jon's mother are well-founded. They are also true, of course, but she misses the fact that it's fraternal love Ned has for Jon's mother, not romantic love.

[Mladen]

Cat didn't blame Ned for fathering a bastard, only blamed him for bringing Jon to Wintefell, always in her sight. Rubbing her nose in it.

Well, what else could she do? She put all her resentment towards Ned in a small box, and never opened it. Every woman resents her husband for cheating, but Cat had a son and family to build, so she chose to ignore Ned siring a bastard. But, she couldn`t do that with Jon, Jon was nothing to her, and she couldn`t do the same thing she did with Ned.

Butterbumps perfectly stated in her post. Cat knew it was wrong to resent the boy, but she couldn`t help herself. And admitting that to herself, Catelyn rose up in my eyes. You know, we have all felt that. You know it`s wrong and petty, but you can`t help it. That`s why we shouldn`t judge Catelyn.