The Problems With Season 4 (Show & Book Spoilers)

[Colonel Green]

whether its littlefinger or the vale lords, sansa is about as free as she was with the Lannisters. the only difference now is that the Vale is mostly on her side. But all they would do is 'keep her safe' which is pretty much not letting her do anything

By that definition, everybody is a "prisoner".

[igrewupinKL]

its like Theon was a 'ward' but what he actually was, was a prisoner of the Starks.

Nevertheless i think we will see Sansa playing the game, manipulating others to do things her way, but shes not in any means, in a position of power.

[Colonel Green]

its like Theon was a 'ward' but what he actually was, was a prisoner of the Starks.

Theon wasn't a ward, he was explicitly a hostage.

That's not remotely Sansa's position. The Vale lords are her allies. Their support means she isn't dependent on Littlefinger, and at risk of violence from him.

[sj4iy]

Sansa tells the Vale lords who she is- they already don't trust LF, so what do you think will happen if something happens to Sansa? They will out him and his game is through...so she's got leverage over him. That's why Sansa's situation is different than it was in KL, and why she can start "playing the game" without worrying solely about surviving.

[Le Cygne]

I think that's where your wrong. Sansa is still very much a prisoner of Littlefinger. She is not free by any means, she just has more room to start playing the game.

Oh yeh...i was thinking about the...'plucking feathers scene'? if you could call it that.

Hell yeh i'd like some Daario development. He is not the Daario from the books, seems more genuine. i would have liked a glimpse of him with his captains, or better yet, a scene with Jorah, Barristan and Dany. I would of loved one of the Dany-Barry conversations from the book to occur. They had one in season 3 which i loved.

You can admit saying the titles are annoying. Even Dany thinks they are annoying.

This is my problem. It went from 'Do you think my family could come to the wedding?' to 'Shall we go *sexual undertones*' and not much time had passed between those

Agree with all your points, the show tends to oversimplify and lose meaning.

Also, I think they are saving any further Dany/Daario development for the big dramatic moment, when he returns. They like holding off until the big dramatic moment, the only problem is, it seems to come out of nowhere that way.

[igrewupinKL]

Agree with all your points, the show tends to oversimplify and lose meaning.

Also, I think they are saving any further Dany/Daario development for the big dramatic moment, when he returns. They like holding off until the big dramatic moment, the only problem is, it seems to come out of nowhere that way.

THANKYOU

I'm getting sick of have to 'justify' my opinion to people who will never agree with me. This is a problems with season 4 thread and i said the problems i thought were with season 4.

The fact that Sansa has leverage over LF is a problem with the show in and of itself.

[Le Cygne]

THANKYOU

I'm getting sick of have to 'justify' my opinion to people who will never agree with me. This is a problems with season 4 thread and i said the problems i thought were with season 4.

The fact that Sansa has leverage over LF is a problem with the show in and of itself.

It's too much too soon, and it's pretty sad, the way they've done it.

And since it's the problem thread, going for that big dramatic moment, without the complexity of characterization and storyline that led up to it, because they oversimplified both, is what gets them nearly every time.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Completely relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOltSq03UE

(Hodoooooooooor... Hoodooooooor... ♫)

Things i wished were excluded completely:

- Cersei telling Tywin about the incest

I forgive them about that one because of Charles fucking Dance NAILING it with his expression full with denial.

[Le Cygne]

It does sound like Hodooooooooooor! :lol:

[igrewupinKL]

Completely relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOltSq03UE

(Hodoooooooooor... Hoodooooooor... ♫)

I forgive them about that one because of Charles fucking Dance NAILING it with his expression full with denial.

Yeh it was good to take a moment to recognise how awesome Charles Dance is. But its not something i couldn't live without

Hooooooodooooooorrrr.........HooodOOOooooooorrrrr. HODOoorr....HOODOROROROROROROR :lol:

btw JonCon's red beard nice new picture. Septa Lemore and Jon Con?

It's too much too soon, and it's pretty sad, the way they've done it.

And since it's the problem thread, going for that big dramatic moment, without the complexity of characterization and storyline that led up to it, because they oversimplified both, is what gets them nearly every time.

You've hit the nail on the head Le Cygne, cheers :cheers:

[Dogs]

Since some other people have posted outlines of how they think this season could have been laid out, I am going to share my thoughts as well:

-I think that Bran and Jon should have met up at Craster's, making that whole little foray plot-relevant. Jon already knew Bran was alive. Bran would still choose to go further North, especially with the definite knowledge that Robb and his mother are dead and he has no place in the world and that Mance Rayder is marching on the wall with like a million wildlings and therefore Jon couldn't ensure his safety even if he wanted to. Bran would tell Jon where Rickon is headed, which would set up that whole future plotline a lot better than it has been (I would see Jon eventually breaking and telling Stannis later in season 5 that his brothers are alive and he knows where one of them is headed but hasn't had the opportunity to find him himself; Stannis would then send Davos on this covert mission to find Rickon Stark at wherever). Bran and Jon would hug, and then part as Craster's goes up in flames. Incidentally, I also think that multiple Craster wives should have mobbed Karl and killed him just before Karl is about to kill Jon, instead of affirming the white male savior figure of Jon Snow who gets the final sword-through-the-mouth kill. As it was, that whole scenario was barely able to scrape through without falling completely apart. It still makes no sense why Karl or one of the wives wouldn't have told Jon Snow that Bran had been there, or at least a cripple boy with a dimwitted giant and two companions had been there.

-Episode 6 opens with Jon Snow and his expedition riding through the night, and they glimpse the camp fires of Mance's army. I feel like the imminence and immensity of Mance's army wasn't built up very well the way that the Battle of the Blackwater was built up from both sides. By the time we got to Episode 9, it was just like, okay well, there's going to be a battle this episode I guess. You move the scene from Episode 7 to Episode 6 of them returning to Castle Black and the Night's Watch discussing closing the tunnel. You move the Melisandre and Selyse scene from Epiosde 7 to later in Episode 6, as well, to speed Stannis' departure from Dragonstone up.

-Episode 7 has the Melisandre/Greyworm scenes that were in Episode 8. Most of the episode stays the same, except you move Mole's Town to near the end of Episode 7 (just before the Lysa's death episode-ending section), and then you have Jon and buddies' reactions to it on top of the Wall instead of in the dining hall, as they see the smoke of the burned Mole's Town puffing up from the distance. And then you cut to a shot of Mance, who is marching with his army, and he sees the Wall in the distance, and then you show, briefly, a giant and mammoth marching with the vast wildling army.

-Episode 8 is everything that happens in the real Episode 9. Like I said, how they did it I think botched the natural temporal storytelling feel of these events to pigeon-hole the battle into the climactic spot.

-Episode 9 opens with Jon meeting with Mance, and then Stannis' arrival. And then all the arc-climaxy stuff from the real Episode 8: Theon stuff at Moat Cailin, Sansa stuff with fallout from Lysa's death, Jorah being exiled (but without the Melisandre/Greyworm stuff), and also Arya arriving at the bloody gate, and then the Trial by Combat.

-Episode 10 then becomes really King's Landing focused, allowing for way more room to create the desired dramatic effect when Tyrion escapes and does a few Bad Things. But you have the Night's Watch funeral scene somewhere earlier in the episode, as well as the chaining of the dragons, and the Bran skeleton fight (maybe without fireballs this time). And amidst these, you build up the situation in King's Landing: maybe Cersei goes to visit Tyrion and just fucking torments him, bringing up his old wife and stuff, and before she leaves she stations a couple of guards and says to them to let nobody else visit him until his execution. She then goes and tells Tywin of the bastardy of her children, etc. Thus, (and someone, I don't remember their username sorry, suggested this when the episode first aired to make Jaime's whole seasonal arc be more satisfying) when Jaime goes to release Tyrion he has to use his left hand and Bronn's training to kill the two guards stationed at Tyrion's cell. You can have the Tysha stuff, because there's been room to set it up better, and thus, Tyrion and Jaime leave on bad terms, with Tyrion revealing to Jaime that Cersei's infidelity with Lancel. And then, Tyrion visiting his dad. The only bad thing about Shae's death I found was that she didn't try and explain or even say anything to Tyrion; her immediate reaction was to fight him, which is too bad, but I thought that scene was pretty powerful by itself in the show how it was. Tywin/Tyrion scene, kind of blank. I don't think the episode did enough to set up Tyrion's frame of mind before he was sprung, thus the events were just kind of presented this happened-this happened-this happened, almost unemotionally, for one of the most important emotional points of Tyrion's character. I liked the Hound-Brienne fight, I guess, though I don't know why Pod didn't pop out Hotpie's wolf bread to convince Arya of their friendliness, or Brienne just have been like, "Well, listen, I'm here to protect you, if you don't want to come with me, then I'll just come with you and protect you and follow you around, I respect your decision making, there's no reason for us to fight man." Still, I guess that was the effective point of the whole scene, just like, What A Tragic Misunderstanding With Severe Consequences. Plus, it really forefronted Arya's self-conscious choice to reject her past by not going after Brienne when she leaves the Hound dying.

I think my real problems with the entire season were with rushed, sloppy writing and directing. We know that these writers can do better, and that Alex Graves can do better (because they often hit the nail on the head), but then, they just don't. They shouldn't settle for that. The showrunners even said in an interview once that the thing that they thought could use the most work in the whole show was the writing. The people who write the show know they could be writing it better. Man. These guys have both extensively studied literature, so know what good writing is. It's just strange. As for Alex Graves, he probably got one episode too many to direct. I would have preferred one or two other Bryan Cogman-caliber written episodes, and at least one other D&D-caliber directed episode – because "Two Swords" and "Walk of Punishment" are actually really impressively directed. Anyways, my thoughts, that is them.

[sj4iy]

-Episode 6 opens with Jon Snow and his expedition riding through the night, and they glimpse the camp fires of Mance's army. I feel like the imminence and immensity of Mance's army wasn't built up very well the way that the Battle of the Blackwater was built up from both sides.

I would have liked this, as well. It would have definitely connected everything together and given more urgency to NW to stop the Wildlings. I'm guessing it was too much money to actually film, but it would have been a really great idea.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

Season 4 had many script problems, and I think the writers were more concerned about throwing book readers in for a loop rather than properly adapting the story. Plus, the dialogue felt a little bit hokey and unnatural, a problem that previous seasons didn't quite have. It felt like they were dumbing down the richness that the dialogue had in the book for more people to understand. Plus there are several sub-plots that just happen, and have no effect on the characters, but only happen to move on the story (e.g. Bran and Jon at Craster's). Also storylines that go absolutely nowhere such as the Missandei/Grey Worm romance. Plus unneeded changes such as the omission of the Tysha sub-plot, which was properly and sneakily built up throughout the season and the one before, only to have it go nowhere.

Though there are enough good points about the season to balance it all out. The inclusion and characterization of Oberyn was fantastically handled, both by the writers and the actor, we had some tremendous and memorable moments throughout such as the battle at the Wall, Tyrion's trial, Joffrey's poisoning, Stannis' attack, and even moments that weren't in the books such as Karl and the mutineers at Craster's were memorable. Plus, a lot of good acting, special effects, editing, and a lot of those one-on-one exchanges that the show does that are absent in the books are still impressive.

All in all, the show hasn't become bad. Annoying at times, yes, but not bad. In my opinion at least.

[Annara Snow]

Season 4 had many script problems, and I think the writers were more concerned about throwing book readers in for a loop rather than properly adapting the story. Plus, the dialogue felt a little bit hokey and unnatural, a problem that previous seasons didn't quite have. It felt like they were dumbing down the richness that the dialogue had in the book for more people to understand.

They didn't?

"Where are you from, the North or the South? Oh, I just realized.. I don't care."

"I didn't come here to discuss grammar."

"WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS????!!!!"

"All men must die. But we are not men."

"...because you arranged it!"

"Will my family be able to attend the wedding?"

"Are you mad at me?"

"Most girls are stupid"

etc. etc.

Plus there are several sub-plots that just happen, and have no effect on the characters, but only happen to move on the story (e.g. Bran and Jon at Craster's).

Tywin and Arya say hi.

Also storylines that go absolutely nowhere such as the Missandei/Grey Worm romance.

How do you know that this goes nowhere?

Plus unneeded changes such as the omission of the Tysha sub-plot, which was properly and sneakily built up throughout the season and the one before, only to have it go nowhere.

That really sucked and ruined the resolution of Tyrion/Tywin. But it's not the first time the show has unnecessarily cut or changed important things. I agree with most of your criticisms, but they can just as well be levelled at seasons 2 and 3, and even season 1 cut or changed important things with no reason (like Sandor's big scene of telling about his scars to Sansa).

[Lady Fevre Dream]

They didn't?

"Where are you from, the North or the South? Oh, I just realized.. I don't care."

"I didn't come here to discuss grammar."

"WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS????!!!!"

"All men must die. But we are not men."

"...because you arranged it!"

"Will my family be able to attend the wedding?"

"Are you mad at me?"

"Most girls are stupid"

etc. etc.

Tywin and Arya say hi.

How do you know that this goes nowhere?

That really sucked and ruined the resolution of Tyrion/Tywin. But it's not the first time the show has unnecessarily cut or changed important things. I agree with most of your criticisms, but they can just as well be levelled at seasons 2 and 3, and even season 1 cut or changed important things with no reason (like Sandor's big scene of telling about his scars to Sansa).

I'm still mad that when they finally did let Sandor tell his story to Arya.........they left out the part about him saying how it all started with him playing with Gregor's toy knight. The part I missed most was Sandor saying that even as he was playing with the toy there wasn't any joy in it........as if he knew what was coming. He obviously had a inkling of what a monster his brother was but the toy, the knight, just drew him in. I think it says so much about him, those quick words and observations on his younger self and the feelings even back then.

[Le Cygne]

The part I missed was him saying it to Sansa. But yeah, the knight toy was super important. It explains who he is, he dreamed of being a knight, and somewhere in that dream was rescuing a fair maiden. Like you say, that's what drew him to the toy, to risk Gregor's ire. That was the key part, it was a knight toy. Just one word they could have added. And it explains why he said "I'm no ser"... and yet acted like a big damn hero rescuing Loras in front of Sansa.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

They didn't?

"Where are you from, the North or the South? Oh, I just realized.. I don't care."

"I didn't come here to discuss grammar."

"WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS????!!!!"

"All men must die. But we are not men."

"...because you arranged it!"

"Will my family be able to attend the wedding?"

"Are you mad at me?"

"Most girls are stupid"

etc. etc.

I wasn't really referring dialogue that felt corny and stupid. Those parts are in every season (Though they are more glaring and common in S4), but my problem with it is that it felt like they were just deliberately making it more simple-minded for the dumb masses to understand. The best way I can describe it is that it felt like stock dialogue. There was no richness or life put into it. It's like they're robots. That's where I was coming from when I was saying it didn't sound natural. The actors look more like they're reciting lines from a script rather than actually meaning what they're saying. The acting suffers from this. For example, the political talk and discussions sounded very off to me. Compared to the book it sounds really poor. Not to say they need to copy dialogue from the book, but still, it's missing that quality. This wasn't as obvious in other seasons. It might be because the dialogue got old, either that, or I'm not very sure which is it. Not only that, but I think there was a lot of modernized dialogue too, which at times, I'd let pass, but still I didn't like.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The part I missed was him saying it to Sansa. But yeah, the knight toy was super important. It explains who he is, he dreamed of being a knight, and somewhere in that dream was rescuing a fair maiden. Like you say, that's what drew him to the toy, to risk Gregor's ire. That was the key part, it was a knight toy. Just one word they could have added. And it explains why he said "I'm no ser"... and yet acted like a big damn hero rescuing Loras in front of Sansa.

Exactly!! I do agree, that scene should have been with Sansa, it's just even once they did part of it with Arya.......they barely let him say anything at all. I remember all the excuses for why LF got the part, but I also remember something interesting from Rory implying there was more to it than the dumb weather excuse, ie......them going slow with The Hound's story. That all just pisses me off twice as much because...........of the mess they've made with LF. They really should let him start twirling a mustache or his goatee tip, or something. :rolleyes:

[Le Cygne]

Exactly!! I do agree, that scene should have been with Sansa, it's just even once they did part of it with Arya.......they barely let him say anything at all. I remember all the excuses for why LF got the part, but I also remember something interesting from Rory implying there was more to it than the dumb weather excuse, ie......them going slow with The Hound's story. That all just pisses me off twice as much because...........of the mess they've made with LF. They really should let him start twirling a mustache or his goatee tip, or something. :rolleyes:

I know, Sansa, too. And they gave LF Sandor's line warning Sansa about liars, too. After barely letting him say anything at all. I remember one review for season 4 said, the Hound can speak! Surprise! All I can say is, they'd better make up for it in the seasons to come. I think they will...

[Lord of Nutella]

I wasn't really referring dialogue that felt corny and stupid. Those parts are in every season (Though they are more glaring and common in S4), but my problem with it is that it felt like they were just deliberately making it more simple-minded for the dumb masses to understand. The best way I can describe it is that it felt like stock dialogue. There was no richness or life put into it. It's like they're robots. That's where I was coming from when I was saying it didn't sound natural. The actors look more like they're reciting lines from a script rather than actually meaning what they're saying. The acting suffers from this. For example, the political talk and discussions sounded very off to me. Compared to the book it sounds really poor. Not to say they need to copy dialogue from the book, but still, it's missing that quality. This wasn't as obvious in other seasons. It might be because the dialogue got old, either that, or I'm not very sure which is it. Not only that, but I think there was a lot of modernized dialogue too, which at times, I'd let pass, but still I didn't like.

Sorry bro, but i have absolutely no idea what u are talking about. Please give an example.