Wyman was very wrong to eat the Freys (Changed thread title)

[Bryanfury]

To call the Frey Pies justice is pathetic. Justice would be a fair trial and execution or imprisonment. Not being murdered and cooked into food. You are making the mistake that Loras made and Ned corrected in A Game of Thrones: that is not justice, it is vengeance.

It's also stupid of you to call the OP a troll when he raises a very valid topic of discussion that many butthurt Stark fanboys are too sensitive to discuss calmly without resorting to name-calling.

1) I called their killing justice, not the pies.

2) This is a medieval society, trials are not a given. Don't try apply real world ethics and law onto their society - there's actually nothing illegal about what Manderly did.

3) It is trollish to intentionally misrepresent the text. He made a post about the killing - he knows how and why they were killed, and he knows they were not guests when they died. Claiming otherwise is nothing but intentional misrepresentation to elicit a response - trolling.

4) If you're so against "name-calling", perhaps you shouldn't have walked in here swinging your tiny "butt-hurt Stark fanboys" irony baton around. This "very valid topic of discussion" is not valid, it's based on a false premise and is a strawman attack on anyone who isn't of the opinion Manderly is the devil incarnate and deserves nothing but scorn.

[shearstone]

Sigh, okay let's ask ourselves a couple of questions first:

Did Wyman break guestright, the most holy right in the entirety of Westeros?

No, he didn't. He gave the Freys parting gifts, which signal the end of formal protection under guest right.

Did Wyman kill thousands of innocent people?

No, he didn't.

Did Wyman have a good reason?

Yes, these people murdered his son and were basically out to highjack Manderley heritage. EDIT; they also murdered his king, are alligned with a guy who killed his niece and probably killed a lot of his friends as well.

Does that make Frey pies okay?

No, not at all. It was badass, but also really gross.

Are Frey Pies better than the RW?

Yes, no doubt about it.

I think it should be mentioned they were using Wymans other son Wylis as leverage to get him to agree to terms that weren't in his best interests in fact they wanted to marry his granddaughters so that they could take White Harbour as Wylis had no sons. They then openly mocked Robb (Wymans king) in his face and expected no repercussions?

They got what they deserved, it was justice plain and simple.

[The King in Black]

The point of notice here is he himself eats it. This shows to what an extent the hatred for the freys, more importantly to see them apparently get away with it, has now reached. That was what frey pies were about: expression (dare I say catharsis) of pure ,unadulterated frustration about injustice.

[Game Of Thrones]

3) It is trollish to intentionally misrepresent the text. He made a post about the killing - he knows how and why they were killed, and he knows they were not guests when they died. Claiming otherwise is nothing but intentional misrepresentation to elicit a response - trolling.

Because you can read minds, right? Note that I slashed 'guests' in an edit, but apparently you're too addicted to name-calling to stop.

It's you who's being a troll since you resort to name calling and claim mind reading powers, and believes nobody can make a mistake.

4) If you're so against "name-calling", perhaps you shouldn't have walked in here swinging your tiny "butt-hurt Stark fanboys" irony baton around. This "very valid topic of discussion" is not valid, it's based on a false premise and is a strawman attack on anyone who isn't of the opinion Manderly is the devil incarnate and deserves nothing but scorn.

This is the real strawman. Oh, the irony...

And everyone, from now on you should all let Bryanfury check your posts, so he can decide if they're valid posts or not.

[Game Of Thrones]

The point of notice here is he himself eats it. This shows to what an extent the hatred for the freys, more importantly to see them apparently get away with it, has now reached. That was what frey pies were about: expression (dare I say catharsis) of pure ,unadulterated frustration about injustice.

:agree:

[Bryanfury]

Because you can read minds, right? Note that I slashed 'guests' in an edit, but apparently you're too addicted to name-calling to stop.

It's you who's being a troll since you resort to name calling and claim mind reading powers, and believes nobody can make a mistake.

This is the real strawman. Oh, the irony...

And everyone, from now on you should all let Bryanfury check your posts, so he can decide if they're valid posts or not.

:lmao:

[lostcause]

To call the Frey Pies justice is pathetic. Justice would be a fair trial and execution or imprisonment. Not being murdered and cooked into food. You are making the mistake that Loras made and Ned corrected in A Game of Thrones: that is not justice, it is vengeance.

It's also stupid of you to call the OP a troll when he raises a very valid topic of discussion that many butthurt Stark fanboys are too sensitive to discuss calmly without resorting to name-calling.

Love it. :)

OT: Frey Pies were not taking any manner of moral highground or anything resembling such. But they are still a far cry from the RW, especially in the eyes of the society in which they were both committed.

[Game Of Thrones]

:lmao:

:drunk: :drunk:

[Mithras]

Executing the three Freys was justice (I am sure that after his men captured the unwary Freys, Wyman asked them about how Robb transformed into a wolf and killed his son again, this time the Freys were probably not so cocky about their lies) but Frey Pies were revenge and it was gross. We saw in Oberyn that when one oversteps from justice to revenge, it ends bad. If Oberyn used a proper manticore venom, Gregor would die in a minute and Oberyn's head would still be intact. But no, Oberyn wanted him to suffer excruciatingly.

[Game Of Thrones]

My dictionary

1. Justice is fairness in the way the people are treated.

2. Justice is the legal system that a country uses in order to punish those who break the law.

[Pilusmagnus]

It's not wrong. Manderly supports the Starks and Starks are cool, so if he kills some Freys he's cool. Duh.

[Biter the Gallant]

-It seems that some of you tend to forget what a huge taboo cannibalism is on Westeros. Even amongst the most skilled wildling wargs it is considered an unholy and sick thing. Varamyr is a particularly evil being. Tricking somebody else to eat human flesh must be a horrible sin in the eyes of gods and men.

-On the other hand, Manderlys' other son was made to eat human flesh at Harrenhal by the Mountain. "Roast goat" and all that stuff. It is often overlooked, but probably it was the main cause for choosing this type of vengeance.

I like Manderly and personally think that he is cool, with all the Rat Cook reference and all, and the three Freys definitely deserved to be killed. But he clearly is driven by (understandable) vengeful grief, and his hatred against the perpetrators of the Red Wedding clearly became irrational (his reaction for the death of Little Walder seems to be funny at first, but it is actually abnormal). And I really feel it ridicolous to take the whole "guest gifts" thing seriously; if anything it is a dark joke on Manderly's part, to amuse himself with the knowledge that he has found a proper hole in the moral tradition concerning guest right as an excuse, unlike Walder, the cruel asshole.

It all shows how dangerous it is to break the fundamental moral taboos of even such a cruel society as Westerosi; after the Red Wedding there seem to be practically no moral rules for war and vengeance in the eyes of a lot of people.

[Red Tiger]

A lord can not support a king if he so chooses. And I wasn't actually saying that Wendel deserved to die because he obviously didn't, I was just pointing out the faulty logic.

And. Why. Am. I. Defending. Walder. Frey?

A lord's allegiance is to his liege lord (Edmure), who gave his allegiance to Robb. Therefore Frey's allegiance should have been to Robb.

Rickard's men left Robb because their lord was killed, that made sense, what Frey did was high treason.

[Narvi]

Frey pies are good for the soul.

[Red Tiger]

Frey pies are good for the soul.

Awesome with cookies and milk.

[Game Of Thrones]

-It seems that some of you tend to forget what a huge taboo cannibalism is on Westeros. Even amongst the most skilled wildling wargs it is considered an unholy and sick thing. Varamyr is a particularly evil being. Tricking somebody else to eat human flesh must be a horrible sin in the eyes of gods and men.

-On the other hand, Manderlys' other son was made to eat human flesh at Harrenhal by the Mountain. "Roast goat" and all that stuff. It is often overlooked, but probably it was the main cause for choosing this type of vengeance.

I like Manderly and personally think that he is cool, with all the Rat Cook reference and all, and the three Freys definitely deserved to be killed. But he clearly is driven by (understandable) vengeful grief, and his hatred against the perpetrators of the Red Wedding clearly became irrational (his reaction for the death of Little Walder seems to be funny at first, but it is actually abnormal). And I really feel it ridicolous to take the whole "guest gifts" thing seriously; if anything it is a dark joke on Manderly's part, to amuse himself with the knowledge that he has found a proper hole in the moral tradition concerning guest right as an excuse, unlike Walder, the cruel asshole.

It all shows how dangerous it is to break the fundamental moral taboos of even such a cruel society as Westerosi; after the Red Wedding there seem to be practically no moral rules for war and vengeance in the eyes of a lot of people.

This.

[Hypnomagica]

In the way that we measure morality today, of course it was a heinous thing to do. But the importance and righteousness of revenge in this world's moral system is pointed out several times throughout the story.

So in terms of how someone in the books would be trained to determine right and wrong, the two events would not even come close.

[new djinn]

Executing those Freys was justice. Cooking and eating them was a crime of cannibalism(without any mitigating factors). True justice would result in Wyman's execution or the black.

Of course, Northern cultists see nothing wrong with it, that's why it's called extremism.

[Chaircat Meow]

Manderly was trying to avenge his son, who was murdered in a particularly underhanded, treacherous and dishonourable way. That's something people sympathize with.

Generally we don't care that much that Walder didn't bag Robb as a son-in-law. It is a bit daft to expect readers to view these two events in the same way.

But yes, if you like to write sermons about how vengeance is wrong you are going to get into a muddle defending one and not the other.

[butterbumps!]

snip

Ok, so I'll probably regret asking this, but in light of the "trollish" accusations, why did you choose to equate killing the 3 Freys with the RW? And why is the support for this about trying to play the world's smallest violin for the 3 Freys' kids, and not, for example, taking a position that murder is always wrong?

I guess I'm asking why, if this is genuine, Manderly's wrongness had to be equated to Walder Freys' wrt the RW in order to make the point that murder is wrong, and that, in spite of how our sympathies align, what Manderly did wasn't right in any objective sense, and why despite that, most of us don't care?