R+L=J v.108

[BearQueen87]

Ned to Arya when she asked if she if she could be lord of a holdfast:

"You will marry a king, and your sons will be knights, and princes and lords," to which Arya replies " No, thats Sansa."

What is interesting about this exchange is that it is completely innocent. and within the context of putting Arya in her place in society. At the time of this conversation, there would be only one king, and that was Joffrey and Sansa would be his queen.

Now there are many, and Marge can't marry them all.

And there are at least two occasions that Martin refers to Arya as princess, i.e., "princess on the run," and Frey whining about losing his princess.

I've always found Martins wording to be very deliberate here, because he could have merely used the word, "high lord," to get across the same point. There is also the fact that Martin is king of all irony. ;)

O_O

Okay so that's a quote.

Hm. Still have the squicky feelings about that as a potential pairing, but that is interesting.

[Kingmonkey]

Ned to Arya when she asked if she if she could be lord of a holdfast:

"You will marry a king, and your sons will be knights, and princes and lords," to which Arya replies " No, thats Sansa."

What makes you think Arya wasn't right, though? Yes, you said that you see Sansa as being an Elizabeth figure, but if this foreshadows anything, I'd think it foreshadows Sansa marrying a king.

And there are at least two occasions that Martin refers to Arya as princess, i.e., "princess on the run," and Frey whining about losing his princess.

After Robb became King of the North, Bran and Rickon were often referred to as princes, too.

[Alia of the knife]

You know? I thought you mis-quoted. Then I looked it up and I'll be damned! I seriously thought he said she would marry a lord. I would have thought that it was a mistake by Martin, except for Arya correcting her father. Awesome catch!

Well, don't think I didn't doubt myself and wenr back to double and triple check lol.

You come to these boards in error, and people will let you know. :)

[IceFire125]

What makes you think Arya wasn't right, though? Yes, you said that you see Sansa as being an Elizabeth figure, but if this foreshadows anything, I'd think it foreshadows Sansa marrying a king.

Because it's so GRRM, that the person who said it, foreshadows the likelihood of it happening to him or in this case, to Arya.

And remember his words to her...

Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?

Yes, it's weird to think that it might be the case, they were raised as siblings, but to the very core, Jon and Arya's Stark grandparents were cousins, sort of.

--

Jon as the Prince that was Promised/AAR...

A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady..

[Alia of the knife]

What makes you think Arya wasn't right, though? Yes, you said that you see Sansa as being an Elizabeth figure, but if this foreshadows anything, I'd think it foreshadows Sansa marrying a king.

After Robb became King of the North, Bran and Rickon were often referred to as princes, too.

And what happened was the least expected.

No, I think Sansa will never put her life in someone else's hands again, which many modern psychologists say was the most profound motivation for Elizabeth Tudor to buck the system, and not marry.

She had gone from princess to bastard, and princess again, to Queen~ pretty traumatic.

[Kingmonkey]

And what happened was the least expected.

No, I think Sansa will never put her life in someone else's hands again, which many modern psychologists say was the most profound motivation for Elizabeth Tudor to buck the system, and not marry.

She had gone from princess to bastard, and princess again, to Queen~ pretty traumatic.

Actually I tend to agree with you on Sansa, the similarities with Elizabeth go far beyond hair colour. She's gone from princess to bastard too, and is well on her way to making it back to princess. Elizabeth was reported to be a quiet and well mannered child, but became a fearsome politician, something Sansa appears to be learning too. I'd consider her the most likely Stark to be sitting on a throne at the end of the series, though whether she manages Elizabeth's trick of staying single or finds some useful husband to keep under her thumb, I wouldn't speculate.

It's hard to see Arya embracing the life of a queen, though. Every step of her journey so far has taken her further and further away from that life. Maybe the last we see of her won't actually be frozen beneath the ice with Needle still clutched in her hand, but I suspect it will at least echo that. Though even if she does end up marrying a King, Jon seems very unlikely.

[Robb_Warged]

Is there a good list out there that compiles all the textual hints and support for R&L=J?

[Ygrain]

The idea of a ritualised combat is an interesting one, but Ned's thoughts about the 3KG and Dayne in particular are strongly coloured with regret. I suspect that Ned felt that the course he was forced to take was not the most honourable one.

/throwing in my usual spiel about Barristan correcting his assumption that a whip would be useless against a knight until he sees how it can immobilize the opponent, and the use of the net to the same purpose that we have seen throughout the series per Meera)

[Kingmonkey]

/throwing in my usual spiel about Barristan correcting his assumption that a whip would be useless against a knight until he sees how it can immobilize the opponent, and the use of the net to the same purpose that we have seen throughout the series per Meera)

Interesting point: Meera has a trident, a net and a dagger, the traditional weapons of the retiarii class of gladiator. Typical match-ups in Roman gladiatorial battles would be a retiarus facing a secutor or sometimes a murmillo, the most heavily armoured gladiatorial classes, in a clash of styles. Just as GRRM's knights look down on crannogmen, the Romans considered the retiarii, reliant on speed, evasion and trickery, to be the one of the lowest classes of gladiator. Their more heavily-armoured opponents, trained in a more direct and "honourable" fighting style, were respected far more. However it's interesting to note that the secutor appears to have developed from the murmillo class, with changes to the helmet design specifically to counter the weaponry of the retiarii. In other words, it seems that the lowly retiarii were rather more deadly against more heavily armoured opponents than was initially expected.

I'd be very surprised if GRRM wasn't thinking about retiarii when he picked the crannogmen's weapons.

[Ygrain]

Interesting point: Meera has a trident, a net and a dagger, the traditional weapons of the retiarii class of gladiator. Typical match-ups in Roman gladiatorial battles would be a retiarus facing a secutor or sometimes a murmillo, the most heavily armoured gladiatorial classes, in a clash of styles. Just as GRRM's knights look down on crannogmen, the Romans considered the retiarii, reliant on speed, evasion and trickery, to be the one of the lowest classes of gladiator. Their more heavily-armoured opponents, trained in a more direct and "honourable" fighting style, were respected far more. However it's interesting to note that the secutor appears to have developed from the murmillo class, with changes to the helmet design specifically to counter the weaponry of the retiarii. In other words, it seems that the lowly retiarii were rather more deadly against more heavily armoured opponents than was initially expected.

I'd be very surprised if GRRM wasn't thinking about retiarii when he picked the crannogmen's weapons.

So would I :-)

And, interestingly, when we get a gladiator-like setting, we learn exactly the same information, but for another unconventional immobilizing weapon. I'm willing to place my bets quite high that there is a purpose behind this all.

[Han Snow]

Jon as the Prince that was Promised/AAR...

A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady..

Is there anything smoky and salty related to Jon's birth in Dorne? Or is GRRM saving that for later, when he finally writes all those whos, whens and hows concerning Jon's birth?!

[MtnLion]

Is there anything smoky and salty related to Jon's birth in Dorne? Or is GRRM saving that for later, when he finally writes all those whos, whens and hows concerning Jon's birth?!

There is the argument that this is a mistake, "salt and smoke", per Jon.

[MtnLion]

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

First post so I apologize if this has already been pointed out but if lyanna was taken hostige then why did aerys kill rickard and Brandon stark? Just seems a bit pointless if you think about it...

The Kingsguard say that they are there because of their vow. Is there a reason to doubt their words? Would Ned hold them in as high esteem if they merely were gaolers of his sister?

[sj4iy]

Is there anything smoky and salty related to Jon's birth in Dorne? Or is GRRM saving that for later, when he finally writes all those whos, whens and hows concerning Jon's birth?!

Well, I would assume there were lots of tears. As for smoke, we'll have to wait and see.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is there anything smoky and salty related to Jon's birth in Dorne? Or is GRRM saving that for later, when he finally writes all those whos, whens and hows concerning Jon's birth?!

Jon's birth in Dorne? Well, tears could be the salty part, but as far as is known, there was nothing smoky about his birth.

His rebirth at the Wall, on the other hand... Who knows ;)

[BearQueen87]

Is there anything smoky and salty related to Jon's birth in Dorne? Or is GRRM saving that for later, when he finally writes all those whos, whens and hows concerning Jon's birth?!

Well, I would assume there were lots of tears. As for smoke, we'll have to wait and see.

Speculation that there may have been a Targaryen funeral pyre for Lyanna, which would obviously have smoke. It could also be something further away, like the Sack of Kings Landing, in which I'm sure some stuff got burned.

[Alia of the knife]

But which birth?

Literal? Or transformative such as a rebirth?

There are clues in both.

[sj4iy]

Alright, since it's been requested more than a few times, I'm going to start compiling quotes that support R+L=J. I will leave in some obvious foreshadowing, but will mostly keep out the obscure foreshadowing. Please, PLEASE help me do this, I will make sure to add more. I'm going to start with AGOT. I don't need page numbers or chapters...we're just going for quotes. No, they aren't in order.

So, here we go:

AGOT:

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched

his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

----

“I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

---

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves.”

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

---

Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.”

---

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

---

“Nonetheless,” Ned said, “the murder of children... it would be vile... unspeakable...”

“Unspeakable?” the king roared. “What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar... how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?” His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. “I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.”

---

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

---

“It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

---

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

---

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

---

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion...

---

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

---

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them... and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise

---

“Rhaegar... Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”

---

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna. “

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

---

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

---

“Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.”

“I promise.” Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed.

---

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

---

“And there’s my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother.

They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.”

“The maid’s a fair one,” Osha said.

“Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her,” Bran explained. “Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all.”

---

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.

---

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”

---

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse.

---

The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”

---

“Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

---

It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring.

---

Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?”

“Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

---

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

---

Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

---

Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”

---

He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

---

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

[Kingmonkey]

His rebirth at the Wall, on the other hand... Who knows ;)

Even assuming R+L=j, we can't be sure salt and smoke applies to Jon. Prophecies are tricky things. However:

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

[BearQueen87]

Yeah GRRM keeps doing that. We are all looking for salt and smoke, so he keeps throwing salt and smoke at us. We want dragons waking from stone, so we keep getting possible dragons waking from stone (and actual dragons that have woken from actual stone).