What is Targaryen madness?

[XSarellaX]

We have many Targaryens who are considered mad, and we've often been told that madness and greatness are different sides of the same coin. Many believe their mental instability is a product of incest. But what is strange is that we see many different kinds of madness, and people like Baelor the Blessed, Dareon I and Viserys are sort of grouped together (by this forum) and considered parts of the crazy side of the family.

If madness is a product of incest and a family trait, shouldn't it have at least some unifying characteristc that defines it? After some thought, I managed to think of some things that are considered part of their madness:

-> Cruelty and paranoia: those Targaryens that are particularly vicious, like Aerys, Viserys, Aerion Brightflame are often labelled as crazy. But when is someone just cruel, and when does that become crazyness? I've never seem anyone stating Tywin Lannister is mad, even though everyone knows he isn't the kindest person around. My theory is that some Targaryens get so caught up in their malagomania that their lose touch with reality, start thinking that they have more power than they have and because of that, they can do whatever they want without consequences.

->Willingness to take extreme action, and to stick to convictions: I like this one because it's here that the line between madness and greatness becomes so difficult to draw. Baelor the Blessed locking his sisters in the Maidenvault, Rhaegar Targaryen possibly starting a war over a prophecy, Aegon I conquering the seven kingdoms, Daenerys trying to abolish slavery, those countless targs who died trying to hatch dragons.. they seem to me as different manifestations of the same will to take extreme action for something they believe in: be it a prophecy, religion, moral values, a vision.

I think even Baelor Breakspear deserves mentioning, after all, fighting in that trial by combact against his own family members, just because it was the right thing to do, is also a radical decision in its own way.

I'm not sure where I can fit their fixation with dragons... trying to hatch dragon eggs is an extreme action, but even some of those who didn't try (like Maestre Aemon) had dragon dreams and all. Targs seem to be strongly linked to prophecys, dreams, magic, and it doesn't always end up well for them. However, not all of those who were invested in these things were outright mad (like Aerys I, Rhaegar, before kidnapping Lyanna)

The other thing I wanted to ask is: to what extent do we blame their actions on their blood? That is, if they were a part of different families, would we still say they were mad, or just vicious, not so bright, etc? And if other characters were Targaryens, wouldn't we be tempted to attribute their controversial decisions to Targ madness? I'm thinking of people like Roose Bolton, Joffrey, Walder Frey, but some lighter characters as well. For example, if Catelyn were a Targ, I'm sure someone somewhere would say her bad choices were a result of Targ craziness.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Targ madness, in my opinion, is one of the less-talked-about side effects of blood bonding with dragons. It's a magical affliction and thus more likely to show up when the bloodline is kept "pure" so to speak, but not predictable by any means as to how many or who will fall victim to it.

[Trickrs]

The only ones that showed some king of insanity were Aerys II and Aerion.

Baelor was just a religious fanatic, the High Sparrow is too, is he a secret targ?

A lot of people in series are obsessed with prophecies, not just Rhaegar.

Being a delusional 16-years old warrior is kinda common, Robb and Dareon are in the same group.

[BitsOfBrains]

There seems to be a mix of inbreeding and what would politically correctly referred to as "a family history of mental illness" so the best analogy I can come up with is the pitbull.

Targaryns and pitbulls seem to have been bred specifically and solely for the purpose of killing (blood and fire). Other dogs/people might be proficient killers but there are other purposes they serve. I people the ability to kill without any compulsion, conscience, or empathy is usually considered psychopathy. In Targaryans its called "blood and fire" and in pitbulls its called a winner.

Pitbulls and Targaryns are inbred. A pitbull can be raised and loved by a family since birth then one day for no reason it will bite the face off of an infant it has slept with for years. Inbreeding does weird things, especially in a group that is predisposed (or bred specifically to exhibit) violent behaviors.

Paranoia, an utter lack of empathy replaced by this phony public display of kindness towards individuals that may be useful towards the giver, sadism, killing/torturing without compulsion or after thought, believing the rules don't apply to you, delusions of grandeur, deft manipulation of other people etc.

I would say psychopathy if its genetic (which it almost certainly is) or sociopathy if its a learned behavior. Maybe a little paranoid schizophrenia with the whole living in your own reality/thinking everyone is out to get you,

[Creticus]

The only ones that showed some king of insanity were Aerys II and Aerion.

No, there are others such as Rhaegel, son of Daeron II, who was said to dance naked through the Red Keep.

That said, it is pretty annoying to see every negative characteristic in a Targaryen brought up as an example of their madness elsewhere. I can certainly buy the argument that Baelor I might have had problems, but claiming madness for people like Daeron I and Aegon IV is really, really stretching it.

[XSarellaX]

The only ones that showed some king of insanity were Aerys II and Aerion.

Baelor was just a religious fanatic, the High Sparrow is too, is he a secret targ?

A lot of people in series are obsessed with prophecies, not just Rhaegar.

Being a delusional 16-years old warrior is kinda common, Robb and Dareon are in the same group.

I mentioned Baelor because he has been brought up as an example that madness and greatness are also a matter of interpretation. Some people think he wasn't right in the head, others think he was awesome. But yeah, he is sometimes labelled as mad because he is a Targaryen.

The prophecy thing deserves some discussion because in ASOIAF, sometimes they're right, sometimes they're right but you're interpretating them wrong, and sometimes they're just wrong. So it's difficult to judge to what extent it's justifiable to act on them, especially when the situation you're in seems to demand something else. Take Rhaegar, for example. The political situation he was in may have required him to stay at KL, but if he was certain he needed to sire that third head to save the world, was it madness to run away with Lyanna? I honestly don't have an answer to that, and I believe neither does GRRM, but them we need to stop judging these other characters who are obsessed with prophecies.

Just to clarify, I think Aerys, Viserys etc were mad, but I'm not sure about the others.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Trickrs, are you telling me Maegor the Cruel was sane??? :shocked:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is not a disease called "madness". Mostly of them had an overreaching sense of entitlement. Some others were definitely louder about their eccentricities than the others. If Aegon I had failed, he would be definitely called "mad" for trying to conquer Seven Kingdoms. As he didn't, he's "great".

Also, power changes you. Cersei isn't coming from generations of inbreeds and she's definitely going mad.

[Trickrs]

Trickrs, are you telling me Maegor the Cruel was sane??? :shocked:

lel, forgot about him.

But we don't have too much information about him. You can be cruel without being psychotic (erratic, unrealible). I don't consider Joffrey insane.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Joffrey is a teenaged boy, which actually isn't a time of sanity. Plus he's been given nearly unlimited power, which IS insane. ;)

I have a very responsible and level-headed fourteen year old son who is nothing like Joffrey. I still would not put him in charge of a kingdom.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

lel, forgot about him.

But we don't have too much information about him. You can be cruel without being psychotic (erratic, unrealible). I don't consider Joffrey insane.

By the way, did you see the Daily Fact of Ice and Fire about Maegor? He cut his wife Tyanna's heart out with Blackfyre, cut it in pieces and threw them to the dogs. Not what I think of as sane behavior.

[XSarellaX]

There is not a disease called "madness". Mostly of them had an overreaching sense of entitlement. Some others were definitely louder about their eccentricities than the others. If Aegon I had failed, he would be definitely called "mad" for trying to conquer Seven Kingdoms. As he didn't, he's "great".

Also, power changes you. Cersei isn't coming from generations of inbreeds and she's definitely going mad.

Yep, being part of the royal family probably doesn't help...

As for Cersei being changed by power... I don't think it changed her all that much, she was always awlful.

By the way, JonCon's RB, you have the greatest avatars and he greatest signature I've ever seen in this forum :bowdown: I can't describe how much I laughed at the Rhaegar-Lightbringer thing :rofl:

[eyenon15]

Dancing naked is no sign of mental illness.

[Equilibrium]

It's a cultural construct thing very subjective to interpretation, made possibly to be Westerosi equivalent of "Power corrupts" phrases.

I fail to see number of Targs with peculiar behavior is different to the number of such individuals in any royal house in medieval Europe, with Targs having actually less downright insane or mentally challenged members. Most of "mad" ones are just sadistic paranoid assholes which is not the same as insane, psych 101 stuff here.

Genetics can play small part in someone's tendency toward's mental illness but it is slippery theory and often exaggerated one. I personally think Martin should cut back on his genetics, magic and especially magic genetics, if he goes too far that way he will make a mess of efficient and consisted story line because you can't make that sort of system neat and consistent

[Ser Charles of Rosehaven]

Easily explained it is something similar to what happens to us.

They were waiting for something nearly impossible (dragon eggs hatching, release of AWoW)

People told them and tried to help but failed (wood dragons, drinking wildfire, GRRM´s editor who always gives inacurate dates)

The more they waited the crazier they became and what they did to pass the time or achieve dragons hatching (burning things, people, cities, and asking GRRM each time)

They became mad and had their different theories on how to hatch them ( wood dragons and wildfire again, and in our case we have ANTS, number 7, mance=raeghar, tyrion=tormunds member, varys is joffrey´s mother, etc.)

So in fact some poster was right. We are all secret targs. #imthebloodofthedragon #har #itisknown

[Trickrs]

By the way, did you see the Daily Fact of Ice and Fire about Maegor? He cut his wife Tyanna's heart out with Blackfyre, cut it in pieces and threw them to the dogs. Not what I think of as sane behavior.

Oh, didn't knew about it...

Yeah, nut.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I guess it only affect the Targaryen males so Jon you are next .

[Minsc]

Trickrs, are you telling me Maegor the Cruel was sane??? :shocked:

How is he any more insane then Tywin, who was equally cruel?

[SeanF]

The Targaryens aren't that different from most of the ruling families of 14th century Europe.

[PrinceHenryris]

There seems to be a mix of inbreeding and what would politically correctly referred to as "a family history of mental illness" so the best analogy I can come up with is the pitbull.

Targaryns and pitbulls seem to have been bred specifically and solely for the purpose of killing (blood and fire). Other dogs/people might be proficient killers but there are other purposes they serve. I people the ability to kill without any compulsion, conscience, or empathy is usually considered psychopathy. In Targaryans its called "blood and fire" and in pitbulls its called a winner.

Pitbulls and Targaryns are inbred. A pitbull can be raised and loved by a family since birth then one day for no reason it will bite the face off of an infant it has slept with for years. Inbreeding does weird things, especially in a group that is predisposed (or bred specifically to exhibit) violent behaviors.

Paranoia, an utter lack of empathy replaced by this phony public display of kindness towards individuals that may be useful towards the giver, sadism, killing/torturing without compulsion or after thought, believing the rules don't apply to you, delusions of grandeur, deft manipulation of other people etc.

I would say psychopathy if its genetic (which it almost certainly is) or sociopathy if its a learned behavior. Maybe a little paranoid schizophrenia with the whole living in your own reality/thinking everyone is out to get you,

This post saddens me.