Gerold+Joanna=Tyrion (G+J=T)

[Ramsay Gimp]

Dumb theory is dumb

[Blazfemur]

I think you are entitled to your opinion, and I think your thoughts have validity. There is a central theme of people not being who we assume them to be or becoming another person in ASOIAF such as Arya, Sansa, Cat, Maester Aemon, Arstan Whitebeard, young Griff, Jaqen H'ghar, probably Jon, probably Mel etc. If anything this will now be tucked the back of your mind when you do rereads or when TWOW comes out. The bull (ox, cow, aurochs, bullocks) and smith (hammer, anvil etc) are given almost exclusively together for certain characters, HUGE characters. Thank you for taking a look at this, and I appreciate your feedback.

"The heart tree stood before him, a pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands."

and i mean absolutely no disrespect in the slightest.

i think for the story, it's required for Tyrion to be a lannister, and deal with it somehow. That's his thing. He always wanted to be someone else, but the stipulation is, he isnt. It's like Jon eventually finding out his lineage. I think there wasnt a marriage, so he'd still technically be a bastard, and thats HIS thing, acceptance that even still he still is a bastard. Tyrion being a Lannister is the same as Jon accepting he's a bastard. It has to happen that way.

Arya's thing, is abandoning her previous life. She must accept anonymity, and eventually, her thing will be getting rid of Needle, thaqt last connection of her prior life. It has to happen eventually. In fact, I think she'll be the one, that puts The Lady to rest. It's the last connection to her prior life. Just seeing Arya, will make the wrath, the rage, of The Lady melt away, and she could finally be put to rest. Arya will fight it, will beg her mother not to make her do this, but eventually she'll give in, tears streaming down her face (merciful killing that shes been training for, to kill without judgment, it's not up to her whether or not The Lady should die). She'll do it with Oathkeeper, and it is in this way I think Arya becomes Azor Ahai, with Oathkeeper as the "red sword" of heroes. Who knows, maybe the magic keeping The Lady alive (which IS Rh'llorian based), seeps into Oathkeeper.

Regardless, with Tyrion (sorry i got off track), his thing, his disability, if you will, is acceptance of his name. That's his hurdle throughout the series. I believe he's already accepted being a dwarf, even before accepting being a Lannister.

Thats just my opinion and belief, though. and again, i mean no disrespect in the slightest

[sarah.jenice]

As for the argument on use of the word lusty, GRRM is using this definition:

Adj.







2.

lusty - endowed with or exhibiting great bodily or mental health; "a hearty glow of health"

red-blooded, full-blooded, hearty

healthy - having or indicating good health in body or mind; free from infirmity or disease; "a rosy healthy baby"; "staying fit and healthy"

That's why he uses it to describe an innocent child.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

As for the argument on use of the word lusty, GRRM is using this definition:

Adj. 2. lusty - endowed with or exhibiting great bodily or mental health; "a hearty glow of health"

red-blooded, full-blooded, hearty

healthy - having or indicating good health in body or mind; free from infirmity or disease; "a rosy healthy baby"; "staying fit and healthy"

That's why he uses it to describe an innocent child.

Yes, however not a common way to describe a child. There are so many adjectives to describe a healthy child as a nurse I know about 20 of them and lusty is not one that comes to mind. Thanks for the feedback and I will correct the OP in the next edit.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Hephaestus' birth is such an important part of his story. Hera was so angry at Zeus for having kids with other women that she used her godly powers to have Hephaestus on her own. When he was born, he was ugly and deformed and she hurtled him from Olympus. That is nothing like Tyrion's story.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that George gets inspiration from a lot of different things. There might be numerous attributes of Hephaestus that are similar to Tyrion, but I'm sure you could find similarities between him and countless other fictional/historical people. It doesn't all have to mean something, and in my humble opinion, all of these similarities don't mean Gerold Hightower is Tyrion's father.

Sarah,

I agree that Tyrion as with most of GRRMs characters have been inspired by multiple characters, not just one. The OP does point out multiple inspirations such as Vulcan, Hepaestus, and Asterion and of coarse I can not discount others knowing GRRM's writing style. GRRM as always, has adapted his inspirations to fit his storyline as he has done for all of his characters. The birth of Hephaestus is not where GRRM took his inspiraton for Tyrion's parents/birth, it was the birth of Asterion son of the White bull (a half-man bastard who was conceived due to the greed of King Minos and imprisoned in a maze) which was discussed in the OP. The smith/bull (ox, cow, aurochs, bullocks) references are riddled throughout the storyline for certain characters, HUGE characters and Tyrion.

I don't know why there are so many theories that Tyrion isn't Tywin's. I think it would take away from Tyrion's story and his personal journey if Tywin isn't his father. Tywin played such a tremendous role in shaping who Tyrion is. When Tyrion finally fought back against that abuse and slayed the monster that had plagued him his whole life and essentially stole the only woman Tyrion feels will ever love him, it was a huge turning point in his life. Killing his father has had and will continue to have a huge effect on him. What would be the point of having him find out that he didn't really commit patricide because Tywin isn't his birth father? For all intents and purposes, Tywin raised him and has been the only father he has ever known, so I just don't see what it will add to the story for Tyrion to find out some long-dead kingsguard knight is his real father. He can't even tell him where whores go because he's dead.

As for tying in The Princess and the Queen, I think the point of that short story was to show us what a war fought between dragons and dragon riders will look like and possibly foreshadowing having the dragons being taken by rogue dragon riders.

As far as Tyrion's arc and personal journey, his journey is still in progress. The death of his father has closed a chapter in his life and we still have AT LEAST two more novels to go. Tyrion still has dragons to ride and people to see AND he is now in the company of two sellswords with the Strong surname and will be meeting Ser Barristan hopefully soon.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

As for the argument on use of the word lusty, GRRM is using this definition:

Adj. 2. lusty - endowed with or exhibiting great bodily or mental health; "a hearty glow of health"

red-blooded, full-blooded, hearty

healthy - having or indicating good health in body or mind; free from infirmity or disease; "a rosy healthy baby"; "staying fit and healthy"

That's why he uses it to describe an innocent child.

:leer: strong adjective \ˈstrȯŋ\

: having great physical power and ability : having a lot of strength

: not easy to break or damage

: not sick or injured

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I think this may somehow tie into the God's Eye conspiracy theory. Gerold Hightower and House Strong are major players. You have to read all four pages because all four parts are continued in throughout the post. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113179-the-gods-eye-conspiracy-part-i/

Changing Tyrion's father would add little to the story. Unless it comes up that he gets tried for kinslaying at some point in the future and it's been proven that he didn't kill Joffery, and he can prove that it's true; it won't add much to the story. It'll just undermine much of his character development to this point.

[Mithras]

Slynt was hanged in GRRM's original version of the chapter. A fan said Jon would do what Ned did and that made him change it.

The thing is, George had not finalized that chapter and he cannot keep all the foresahdowing in his head. What is certain is that he was always planning to have Jon kill Janos, which is a reference to Jon as a hero from Sansa foreshadowing.

[Sanset]

One point that I don't get is Jon Arryn last words. I'm not saying that I disagree, just that it is not clear why Jon Arryn would be so worry about Joanna and Gerold affair or worry about Tyrion. There is a kind of parallel with a misunderstanding of the last word with Hoster Tully and Tansy. I don't see the connection (not saying there isn't one) with Jon Arryn. I mean, it seems that he was a very proud person so he might be worried or guilty because he helped to marry his dear Robert to a "bastard". Would that be the connection?

I like the theory with all the interesting connections and I think maybe Jon Arryn was reading the book for more that one purpose. We get the easy one, like Eddard did but we might overlook that there was more than what looked at first sight. I just don't get why Jon Arryn would be so worry about it.

By the way, I think the idea that Tywin loved Joanna is just propaganda to clean his dreadful personality. There is not one act from Tywin that shows him being a good person. His behavior shows a very different Tywin than the speeches of the people who are his puppets. Tywin is a very mean person in general. He is particularly mean with women and he has serious sexual issues. So, I think that people who believe that Tywin loved Joanna or at least care about her should check the sources of that info. Every piece of info that shows Tywin as a good strong person is propaganda that is not consistent with his cruel behavior. So, Joanna cheating on Tywin is a very reasonable possibility. Even more, I think if she wouldn't cheated on him, he wouldn't have been a father at all. Not even the nasty one that he was.

PS: I think that beyond the biological issues with his three children, Tywin was the father of these three grown-up characters. No DNA test would change that past that was constructed the way is was.

[Knight Of Winter]

The main problem is how this theory has zero evidence from the ASOIAF books - and tries to compensate it by establishing an analogy with Greek mythology and using it for evidence. Good theories don't work that way. Case in point, good ASOIAF theory should primarily have lots of proofs from ASOIAF books. It can't rely on other works.

Other thing is how it brings nothing to the story. Even A+J=T theory, as much as I disagree with it, has Aaah, now it makes sense or Well, that explains much moment in case if it's true. Meanwhile, if by some chance G+J=T theory turns out correct, readers' reaction will be Uh, okaay.

[Consigliere]

Other than pure 'shock value', this theory adds absolutely nothing narratively.

[Hangover of the Morning]

The main problem is how this theory has zero evidence from the ASOIAF books - and tries to compensate it by establishing an analogy with Greek mythology and using it for evidence. Good theories don't work that way. Case in point, good ASOIAF theory should primarily have lots of proofs from ASOIAF books. It can't rely on other works.

Other thing is how it brings nothing to the story. Even A+J=T theory, as much as I disagree with it, has Aaah, now it makes sense or Well, that explains much moment in case if it's true. Meanwhile, if by some chance G+J=T theory turns out correct, readers' reaction will be Uh, okaay.

:agree: Exactly, the reaction would be uh, okay, who's Gerold Hightower again?

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Other than pure 'shock value', this theory adds absolutely nothing narratively.

:agree: Exactly, the reaction would be uh, okay, who's Gerold Hightower again?

Other thing is how it brings nothing to the story. Even A+J=T theory, as much as I disagree with it, has Aaah, now it makes sense or Well, that explains much moment in case if it's true. Meanwhile, if by some chance G+J=T theory turns out correct, readers' reaction will be Uh, okaay.

I disagree, I believe the roles of Howland Reed, House Hightower, House Strong and possible House Dayne will be brought forth in the series if TGET is true. I had posted G+J=T prior to reading TGET and had strong notions about House Strong previously if you have read my Lucamore the Lusty is a Baratheon Predecessor topic on another thread and saw similarities to the wounds given by the dagger to the oath takers, Catelyn's hands and the imagery of the bloody hands on the wierwood tree, but ever since reading TGET last night, I have had new motivation and the storyline is making sense. I knew I would be subject to criticism and ridicule for even proposing *gasp* such a controversial topic. Don't think I haven't seen how the A+J=T supporters have been treated on these forums. Frankly, I think GRRM has everyone fooled looking the wrong way, and the only true criticism I have received has simply been the question of how this fits into the storyline.

If you have read my "Lusty" thread you will have seen the use of Bull and blacksmith symbolism GRRM uses for HUGE "strong" characters. I will be posting a thread entitled Tyrion is the Smith God which may pique your interest.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I disagree, I believe the roles of Howland Reed, House Hightower, House Strong and possible House Dayne will be brought forth in the series if TGET is true. I had posted G+J=T prior to reading TGET and had strong notions about House Strong previously if you have read my Lucamore the Lusty is a Baratheon Predecessor topic on another thread and saw similarities to the wounds given by the dagger to the oath takers, Catelyn's hands and the imagery of the bloody hands on the wierwood tree, but ever since reading TGET last night, I have had new motivation and the storyline is making sense. I knew I would be subject to criticism and ridicule for even proposing *gasp* such a controversial topic. Don't think I haven't seen how the A+J=T supporters have been treated on these forums. Frankly, I think GRRM has everyone fooled looking the wrong way, and the only true criticism I have received has simply been the question of how this fits into the storyline.

If you have read my "Lusty" thread you will have seen the use of Bull and blacksmith symbolism GRRM uses for HUGE "strong" characters. I will be posting a thread entitled Tyrion is the Smith God which may pique your interest.

People are ridiculing it because you provided zero textual evidence for your fairly outrageous claims. Vague parallels with our world mythology mean absolutely nothing, not to mention that every myth has at least a dozen different versions and interpretations. On top of that, your theory makes no sense narratively, because if true it adds almost nothing to the story.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

One point that I don't get is Jon Arryn last words. I'm not saying that I disagree, just that it is not clear why Jon Arryn would be so worry about Joanna and Gerold affair or worry about Tyrion. There is a kind of parallel with a misunderstanding of the last word with Hoster Tully and Tansy. I don't see the connection (not saying there isn't one) with Jon Arryn. I mean, it seems that he was a very proud person so he might be worried or guilty because he helped to marry his dear Robert to a "bastard". Would that be the connection?

I like the theory with all the interesting connections and I think maybe Jon Arryn was reading the book for more that one purpose. We get the easy one, like Eddard did but we might overlook that there was more than what looked at first sight. I just don't get why Jon Arryn would be so worry about it.

The dagger and seed is strong were really just additional supports for The God's Eye Conspiracy Theory. Most of the feedback I have received has simply been, how does this fit into the storyline and after reading TGECT I am starting to see how this could be pertinent since GH is a main player is TGECT.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

People are ridiculing it because you provided zero textual evidence for your fairly outrageous claims. Vague parallels with our world mythology mean absolutely nothing, not to mention that every myth has at least a dozen different versions and interpretations. On top of that, your theory makes no sense narratively, because if true it adds almost nothing to the story.

TGECT makes sense Gerold Hightower is key player as is Howland Reed Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne. Additionally Howland Reed will be should be making an appearance somewhere in the series, Barristan Selmy will be linking up with Tyrion.

[Hangover of the Morning]

TGECT makes sense Gerold Hightower is key player as is Howland Reed Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne. Additionally Howland Reed will be should be making an appearance somewhere in the series, Barristan Selmy will be linking up with Tyrion.

I know I will probably regret it but what is The Grand God's Eye Conspiracy Theory? You make it sounds like it's a fact.

(I am generally weary of any conspiracy theories in ASoIaF because they tend to strip the characters of agency and explain every random and unpredictable event as something premeditated).

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Nah. Too byzantine to be the actual story. Imagine The Reveal, the readers scratching their heads and muttering "what the fuck?". Yeah, and the lack of in-story evidence of any relationship between those two (not even as much as "Lady Joanna said hi to Ser Gerold") hurts your theory, too. Bottom line, nothing to it.

And summoning another weak crackpot to aid yours doesn't actually help.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I know I will probably regret it but what is The Grand God's Eye Conspiracy Theory? You make it sounds like it's a fact.

(I am generally weary of any conspiracy theories in ASoIaF because they tend to strip the characters of agency and explain every random and unpredictable event as something premeditated).

you didn't even read the OP. it was discussed and the link was provided. No longer discussing this with you now that I know you haven't read the OP. you wanted to know how it fit in the storyline, which TGECT and storyline were discussed in the OP with link, I have been back and forth with you a few times about it and now you are asking what it is? Seriously next time read the OP.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

The main problem is how this theory has zero evidence from the ASOIAF books - and tries to compensate it by establishing an analogy with Greek mythology and using it for evidence. Good theories don't work that way. Case in point, good ASOIAF theory should primarily have lots of proofs from ASOIAF books. It can't rely on other works.

Other thing is how it brings nothing to the story. Even A+J=T theory, as much as I disagree with it, has Aaah, now it makes sense or Well, that explains much moment in case if it's true. Meanwhile, if by some chance G+J=T theory turns out correct, readers' reaction will be Uh, okaay.

Tyrion smith topic has been posted as discussed http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121238-tyrion-and-the-smith/