Heresy 140 [World of Ice & Fire Spoilers]

[aDanceWithFlagons]

nahhhhhhhhhh you jest no?

No. Giants do love Jazz Fusion!

If it had nothing to do with magic then this would be a possibility, but I think the horn is more than just a horn.

[Syri0_F0rel]

Has anyone put much thought into the Year of the False Spring phenomenon?

281AC The False Spring Lasted two turns, and on the last day of the year winter returned with a vengeance, freezing the Blackwater and covering King's Landing in ice. King Aerys lit huge green fires around the Red Keep for a turn to ward off the winter.

This reminds me of the storm that engulfs Winterfell.

1) TWOIAF says the winter returned on the first day of the year, and at the coming of the New Year Rhaegar seized Lyanna 10 leagues from Harrenhal. Is it possible that some subconscious Stark winter magic brought upon the Winter storm that ended the False Spring of 281 in response to either the crowning or the abduction?

2) If (I don't know if this can be proven) all the Starks left Winterfell for the Tourney, may the second coming of winter have anything to do the with the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell," superstition?

Lastly, I am unclear of the amount of time between the Tourney of Harrenhal. The False Spring lasted two turns and ended with the second coming of winter. Winter came on the first day of the new year. So it seems that the two month spring ended the year.

What throws me off is Rhaegar, "With the coming of the new year... [took]to the road...on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna."

3) So did Rhaegar go back to King's Landing, grab his pals while Lyanna hung around Harrenhall sometime before leaving?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Has anyone put much thought into the Year of the False Spring phenomenon?

281AC The False Spring Lasted two turns, and on the last day of the year winter returned with a vengeance, freezing the Blackwater and covering King's Landing in ice. King Aerys lit huge green fires around the Red Keep for a turn to ward off the winter.

This reminds me of the storm that engulfs Winterfell.

1) TWOIAF says the winter returned on the first day of the year, and at the coming of the New Year Rhaegar seized Lyanna 10 leagues from Winterfell. Is it possible that some subconscious Stark winter magic brought upon the Winter storm that ended the False Spring of 281 in response to either the crowning or the abduction?

2) If (I don't know if this can be proven) all the Starks left Winterfell for the Tourney, may the second coming of winter have anything to do the with the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell," superstition?

Lastly, I am unclear of the amount of time between the Tourney of Harrenhal. The False Spring lasted two turns and ended with the second coming of winter. Winter came on the first day of the new year. So it seems that the two month spring ended the year.

What throws me off is Rhaegar, "With the coming of the new year... [took]to the road...on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna."

3) So did Rhaegar go back to King's Landing, grab his pals while Lyanna hung around Harrenhall sometime before leaving?

I'm still waiting on confirmation that a "turn" is the same thing as a month. If it is, then the Harrenhal-to-Rebellion timeline moved a good bit faster than I previously thought.

Otherwise... "False Spring" implies to me that Winter had not really ended in the first place. But if we are to understand that seasonal changes have some magical cause or component, then the question I'm inclined to ask is this:

Who stands to benefit from a False Spring, or the events it precipitates?

.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Also - with respect to the location of this alleged "abduction," my money is on the Crossroads Inn...

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Also - with respect to the location of this alleged "abduction," my money is on the Crossroads Inn...

Bet! It fits so neatly. Catelyn and Tyrion, The Hound and Arya, Brienne, Gendry, the Brotherhood and more. It is a great place to set up terrible and game changing events.

I recently have visited and participated in another thread where the location of said encounter was ten leagues from Harrenhal. Of course The Isle of Faces was the assumption. Lyanna and Rhaegar rowed across the lake to marry in sight of the weirwoods. Whaaaa?

[Eira Seren]

Bet! It fits so neatly. Catelyn and Tyrion, The Hound and Arya, Brienne, Gendry, the Brotherhood and more. It is a great place to set up terrible and game changing events.

I recently have visited and participated in another thread where the location of said encounter was ten leagues from Harrenhal. Of course The Isle of Faces was the assumption. Lyanna and Rhaegar rowed across the lake to marry in sight of the weirwoods. Whaaaa?

Actually, that was a speculation I made a long time ago on the R +L =J thread, not that it probably hadn't been discussed before, or that it was given much credence.

My thinking was along the lines of 'if you want to join ice and fire,what better place than in front of a bunch of weirwoods, with a setting of historical signficance. . . ' Back then I was thinking about the location and that it might have some kind of tie to the Pact (and hence, to the sort of 'heart' of Westeros and magic). Funny, I ended up in Heresy. . .

[Phillip Frye]

Also - with respect to the location of this alleged "abduction," my money is on the Crossroads Inn...

You can get anything you want at Masha's restaurant . . .

[Phillip Frye]

No. Giants do love Jazz Fusion!

However, they return back to the earth if you play anything by Chuck Mangione.

[Black Crow]

I recently have visited and participated in another thread where the location of said encounter was ten leagues from Harrenhal. Of course The Isle of Faces was the assumption. Lyanna and Rhaegar rowed across the lake to marry in sight of the weirwoods. Whaaaa?

You mean that storied Isle guarded by the green men which cannot be reached because anybody fool enough to try is either beset by storms or beset by a murder of crows.

Now OK Howland Reed supposedly did but he was a crannogman on a pilgrimage. The Targaryen Prince of Dragonstone is going to trigger storms and crows - and probably a sudden feeling he'd left something in the oven as well.

[Black Crow]

I'm still waiting on confirmation that a "turn" is the same thing as a month. If it is, then the Harrenhal-to-Rebellion timeline moved a good bit faster than I previously thought.

.

My understanding is that a "turn" is exactly what it says, ie; a "moon's turn"; although that's not to say it equates to the 28 days of our own moon.

[butterbumps!]

Has everyone looked at the Reach chapter in detail?

Of note, the Reach was apparently the first major center of inhabitation post- landbridge crossing, and Garth Greenhand is allegedly the first First Men king. From Garth, a number of sons and daughters apparently went forth and proliferated.

One of these sons was Brandon of the Bloody Blade, best known for driving giants and CotF from the Reach, slaughtering a prodigious number of them.

He is apparently Bran the Builder's ancestor (possibly father, it's not clear).

Going forward, it is noted that some of the inhabitants of the Reach, annoyed at the prospect of Andal invasions, sought out the services of a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back. Others, like the king, thought to seek out CotF to implore them to use their magic to dissuade the Andals. (the Andal invasions ended up being a peaceful assimilation, without much bloodshed, though). Point being, this brings home the idea of at least the wights as a political weapon, and seems to separate them from the CotF-- that is, it's a woods witch who was pitching the undead army, unconnected to the CotF's powers, who were sought for different magics.

Of further Reach note, there's that island in Oldtown called "Battle Isle." The book makes a point of pointing out that no one knows what battle was fought there to give it its name. This is where that black stone fortress sits, with what's now the light tower above it (the fortress quite literally became a "light bringer", lol).

It's worth mentioning that Oldtown and the Reach is a stone's throw from Starfall, which is right over the border, for anyone who suspects Dawn played a role in the Long Night.

I'm really wondering if the Battle for the Dawn took place in the North at all.

[DarkRose_9]

You mean that storied Isle guarded by the green men which cannot be reached because anybody fool enough to try is either beset by storms or beset by a murder of crows.

Now OK Howland Reed supposedly did but he was a crannogman on a pilgrimage. The Targaryen Prince of Dragonstone is going to trigger storms and crows - and probably a sudden feeling he'd left something in the oven as well.

Heh, in the oven. If R+L=J is true, then yes he did. :lol:

(As a note, I don't believe that Jon's parentage is something that is going to define the series. Jon seems to have made his peace with being a bastard, and I have as well)

[DarkRose_9]

Has everyone looked at the Reach chapter in detail?

Of note, the Reach was apparently the first major center of inhabitation post- landbridge crossing, and Garth Greenhand is allegedly the first First Men king. From Garth, a number of sons and daughters apparently went forth and proliferated.

One of these sons was Brandon of the Bloody Blade, best known for driving giants and CotF from the Reach, slaughtering a prodigious number of them.

He is apparently Bran the Builder's ancestor (possibly father, it's not clear).

Going forward, it is noted that some of the inhabitants of the Reach, annoyed at the prospect of Andal invasions, sought out the services of a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back. Others, like the king, thought to seek out CotF to implore them to use their magic to dissuade the Andals. (the Andal invasions ended up being a peaceful assimilation, without much bloodshed, though). Point being, this brings home the idea of at least the wights as a political weapon, and seems to separate them from the CotF-- that is, it's a woods witch who was pitching the undead army, unconnected to the CotF's powers, who were sought for different magics.

I'm really wondering if the Battle for the Dawn took place in the North at all.

This is somewhat along my line of thought as well. I think that in Essos, this battle did happen, given how many of the legends collected in the worldbook include the sword lightbringer, and a heroic figure who leads an army against the darkness. (I'm still struggling to figure out how the one featuring the lady with a monkey's tail figures into all this)

Now while I do believe the LN was worldwide, I think that Westeros solved their problem in a different manner, as the stories are contradictory. Instead of a huge army, we have one man. His sword incidentally, is not flaming, but rather has broken. In addition to the darkness, we have the Others, and winter - something I don't believe is mentioned in the other non-westerosi tales.

Then of course, there is the wall. Do any of the other lands have such a thing? I presume the closest equivalent would be the Shadow, leading into the heart of darkness. But it is a thing to be feared and avoided, rather than a place to send men to keep watch.

In fact, if we theorize that the LN started in Westeros, and that only the darkness (not winter) spread across the world, might not it be the case that in the Battle for the Dawn that AA and company fought, the only reason they prevailed is because the long night was already fading, due to some sort of behind the scenes wrangling between the LH and the COTF?

And because the darkness receded across the world, AA etc. presumed that they (the essos inhabitants) had brought about victory, unaware of the true reason in Westeros. In other words - they got lucky. (Then of course when the Andels came over, they brought their tales with them.)

If AA and the LH are actually two different people, then the tales may be easier to reconcile, because while it can be argued (and has been, very well in fact) that AA/Twtp and the LH are one and the same, I believe it makes more sense to think of the LH as solely a Westerosi figure, who was superimposed upon by the conquering Andals.

There is historical precedent for this type of thing in the legends of King Arthur. The king was Welsh, but has claimed by all of England, as a result of the Saxon and Norman invasions. (In particular, the normans/french became enamoured with the idea of Arthur and his knights,) Not only that, but Arthur's knights are often shown to be catholic, despite that fact that the earlier legends are bound up in magic and the fae - something that is counter to christian ideology.

This appears similar to the way that Mel is trying to impose her religion on whatever is happening in the books - time only will tell if she has the right of it, but I highly doubt it.

[Mithras]

This has been the point of the timeline debate from the very beginning; bring the Long Night forward to say 6,000 years ago [or even not that long] and its starts to mesh with events in Essos and isn't a random event out of nowhere. Now in the World Book we're told that it was indeed 6,000 years ago rather than 8,000 years ago.

Actually, there are a lot of things that we should not buy in the world book; or things that have multiple accounts one of which we should choose. This is one of them. There seems to be a deliberate "confusion" created about the timeline of ancient ages. Especially the arrival of the Andals are messed up. But I think the original timeline was always right. The Long Night happened 8000 years ago and the Andals came 6000 years ago.

One connection I noticed with respect to the LH is this:

In the Vale, however, the deeds of this real historical personage have become utterly confused with those of his legendary namesake, another Artys Arryn, who lived many thousands of years earlier during the Age of Heroes, and is remembered in song and story as the Winged Knight.

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

Compare this bolded part to how Tyrion likens the flying dragon to "a very big eagle". This convinces me that the Winged Knight was a dragonrider. The story of the Winged Knight resembles how the LH sought the "superhuman" help. Therefore, the dragonriding might be introduced to the LH with the help of the CotF.

[Mithras]

Garth Greenhand seems like the harvest deity that was brought by the First Men and a reminder of their original religion in which blood sacrifices were being made. I think the only remnant of this ancient belief is in Pentos where they slit the throat of their princes should the harvest fail.

It is also interesting that the First Men practiced thralldom and polygamy. The Andals were slavers in Essos.

Yi Ti version of the Long Night seems interesting.

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries … yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior— known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser— arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

Yet the Great Empire of the Dawn was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day. Or so the men and women of the Further East believe.

Martin, George R.R.; Garcia, Elio; Antonsson, Linda (2014-10-28). The World of Ice & Fire: The Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 8490-8510). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

These successive god-emperors named after gems and ascending to stars after death should give us a hint. Each god-emperor’s reign might represent an astrological age. As the ages pass, people fell into the darkness of sins. The reigns became shorter and probably the seasons jumped out of balance.

Bloodstone Emperor and Amethyst Empress during the Long Night somehow remind me of the Night’s King and his Other bride. Of course there might be inconsistencies between these two different tales but the truth might lie somewhere in between.

From the way it seems, the way the First Long Night was dealt with was incomplete and probably that is why the seasons are still unbalanced. And probably that is why people prophesized that the Hero will return to finish the job.

[butterbumps!]

This is somewhat along my line of thought as well. I think that in Essos, this battle did happen, given how many of the legends collected in the worldbook include the sword lightbringer, and a heroic figure who leads an army against the darkness. (I'm still struggling to figure out how the one featuring the lady with a monkey's tail figures into all this)

Now while I do believe the LN was worldwide, I think that Westeros solved their problem in a different manner, as the stories are contradictory. Instead of a huge army, we have one man. His sword incidentally, is not flaming, but rather has broken. In addition to the darkness, we have the Others, and winter - something I don't believe is mentioned in the other non-westerosi tales.

Then of course, there is the wall. Do any of the other lands have such a thing? I presume the closest equivalent would be the Shadow, leading into the heart of darkness. But it is a thing to be feared and avoided, rather than a place to send men to keep watch.

In fact, if we theorize that the LN started in Westeros, and that only the darkness (not winter) spread across the world, might not it be the case that in the Battle for the Dawn that AA and company fought, the only reason they prevailed is because the long night was already fading, due to some sort of behind the scenes wrangling between the LH and the COTF?

And because the darkness receded across the world, AA etc. presumed that they (the essos inhabitants) had brought about victory, unaware of the true reason in Westeros. In other words - they got lucky. (Then of course when the Andels came over, they brought their tales with them.)

If AA and the LH are actually two different people, then the tales may be easier to reconcile, because while it can be argued (and has been, very well in fact) that AA/Twtp and the LH are one and the same, I believe it makes more sense to think of the LH as solely a Westerosi figure, who was superimposed upon by the conquering Andals.

There is historical precedent for this type of thing in the legends of King Arthur. The king was Welsh, but has claimed by all of England, as a result of the Saxon and Norman invasions. (In particular, the normans/french became enamoured with the idea of Arthur and his knights,) Not only that, but Arthur's knights are often shown to be catholic, despite that fact that the earlier legends are bound up in magic and the fae - something that is counter to christian ideology.

This appears similar to the way that Mel is trying to impose her religion on whatever is happening in the books - time only will tell if she has the right of it, but I highly doubt it.

To be honest, I'm not fully sure that there was a single "THE Long Night" around the entire world at precisely the same time. Or if there was, I wonder if it was caused by a pseudo-natural disaster that presented the opportunity for all these people to start abusing magic at around the same time. As in, a quasi-natural event occurred, opening the door for people to start abusing the hell out of each other, in turn capitalizing on and proliferating the darkness. Like the way the Others proliferate the cold, and the Bloodstone Emperor of Yi Ti proliferated death.

At any rate, I'm not so sure where the Long Night began. Perhaps it proliferated out of Asshai and spread across the world or something. I can't decide if Asshai was once a thriving civilization like Valyria or Sarnor that imploded itself in a Doom-like disaster, or if it's always been such a hellhole.

But we do know that various ancient civilizations were absolutely abusive jackasses who were always conquering and enslaving (Yi Ti, Old Ghis, later Valyrians).

I'm thinking that the First Men weren't a homogenous group, but rather, various races fleeing oppression by the burgeoning empires in the early days (or even the onset of an Eastern Long Night or something), and not all arriving at precisely the same time. I tend to think a few proto-Valyrians were among these groups; the Hightowers and Daynes are physically very similar to Valyrians, and it's these two Houses that are known to have made engineering advances in the far past (forging Dawn, and the Oldtown architecture).

ETA: in terms of a "Wall" equivalent, we have those 5 forts to the northeast of Yi Ti. They separate Yi Ti from the "Grey Waste." Over there, there's mention of people who sound curiously similar to skin changers, Boltons and perhaps dragon-riders/ men who skinchange birds (cannibals, "half human-lizard men," men who fly on leathern wings, "bloodless" men). I wonder if those were erected to ward off old-god-like powers. My suspicion has been that THE Wall is truly against CotF and their ilk rather than the ice demons, and it's somewhat curious that these 5 forts could have a similar purpose.

However, their legends claim it was built to keep the Lion of Night (aka Death) out of their lands.

[DarkRose_9]

ETA: in terms of a "Wall" equivalent, we have those 5 forts to the northeast of Yi Ti. They separate Yi Ti from the "Grey Waste." Over there, there's mention of people who sound curiously similar to skin changers, Boltons and perhaps dragon-riders/ men who skinchange birds (cannibals, "half human-lizard men," men who fly on leathern wings, "bloodless" men). I wonder if those were erected to ward off old-god-like powers. My suspicion has been that THE Wall is truly against CotF and their ilk rather than the ice demons, and it's somewhat curious that these 5 forts could have a similar purpose.

However, their legends claim it was built to keep the Lion of Night (aka Death) out of their lands.

Good point, and I suppose I didn't make it clear enough - I was thinking that the LN was worldwide, but lasted for different lengths at time in different places. I wonder how it might be if the story was based in Yi Ti instead of Westeros?

[Frey family reunion]

You mean that storied Isle guarded by the green men which cannot be reached because anybody fool enough to try is either beset by storms or beset by a murder of crows.

Now OK Howland Reed supposedly did but he was a crannogman on a pilgrimage. The Targaryen Prince of Dragonstone is going to trigger storms and crows - and probably a sudden feeling he'd left something in the oven as well.

Yet supposedly Addam Velaryon visited the Isle of Faces at the beginning of the Dance of Dragons.

[butterbumps!]

Good point, and I suppose I didn't make it clear enough - I was thinking that the LN was worldwide, but lasted for different lengths at time in different places. I wonder how it might be if the story was based in Yi Ti instead of Westeros?

Yea, that could be too. Or that it came from the east and proliferated westerward, eventually into Westeros or something. I don't doubt that all these regions went through something called a Long Night; the Yi Ti version may not be the "official" version or anything, but merely how their iteration of the LN manifested.

But it does seem pretty clear now that there were all these abusive empires one after the other, and I kind of have to think that the FM really aren't homogenous. I wonder if "First Men" are just different groups fleeing from various abuses at different points in time, so far back in history that they're now seen as one people. For argument's sake, if Asshai really was a real empire and suffered a Doom, survivors/ oppressed people with arcane knowledge may have taken shelter in the 14 flames and even further westerward, into Westeros, and perhaps other locales.

I think Martin's comment about how dragons could be found all over back in time is potentially confusing. It almost leads to speculation that dragons are somehow naturally occurring things. But I think it might be closer to the truth that they proliferated from some of the FM (perhaps unable to control them as well as the Valyrians eventually did), who were potentially fleeing some sort of catastrophe in the East, in the same way we know others did.

[Armstark]

I think Martin's comment about how dragons could be found all over back in time is potentially confusing. It almost leads to speculation that dragons are somehow naturally occurring things. But I think it might be closer to the truth that they proliferated from some of the FM (perhaps unable to control them as well as the Valyrians eventually did), who were potentially fleeing some sort of catastrophe in the East, in the same way we know others did.

What makes you think dragons are not naturally occurring things?