Are we manipulated into loving Jon too much by GRRM at the start of the series?

[Tiliana]

It's only apparent to me from starting a reread, but the way the reader is manipulated into loving Jon Snow right from the start (most people being unaware of this!) is very uncomfortable. It feels like you are being mind controlled into a snap judgment of a character, a strong one that will and does for many, endure through the entire series. You are not acclimated slowly to Jon being a good guy, like Ned or anyone else, but it's immediately thrown in your face hastily as you gotta love the main hero or else.

Let's just look at the first Bran chapter. The first thing Jon ever says is

Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. “Keep the pony well in hand,” he whispered. “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.”

Who is telling Bran to be careful riding his horse? Not his father, who should have done so. Or his brother, or the master of the household guard, or even the master of horse of all people, but Jon. Immediately we are subconciously messaged that Jon is more caring and thoughtful than the rest of the people here

Then immediately afterward, Theon kicks the deserter's lopped off head and then speaks for the reader almost

“Ass,” Jon muttered, low enough so Greyjoy did not hear. He put a hand on Bran’s shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. “You did well,” Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

.. by calling Theon an ass, and giving Bran congratulations. We see quickly that Jon is closer to Bran than his brother, father or anyone else clearly as he is the only one who pays him mind in this instance.

Then Jon is shown to not only be a good guy, but a smart guy. He is contrasted favorably to Robb who sees only the brave facade of the dying deserter, while Jon sees what is going on beneath his act. More points are scored for Lord Snow here

Then of course we have Jon sacrificing getting his own direwolf so that his siblings could get one.

Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Their lord father regarded Jon thoughtfully.

Note how Bran loves Jon with "all his heart" building onto the previously positive impression we get. Furthermore, the text makes sure to embolden that Jon is sacrificing himself for his siblings selflessly so everyone knows what happened here because this is not from Jon's PoV. Then we have Ned thoughtfully regarding Jon, if we had his PoV here it would probably be singing his praises. I mean does Ned ever do this with his own children? There is as much if not more selflessness, caring, wisdom and good nature from Jon in this one chapter than in say, Theon or Jaime's entire tenure in this series!

Then furthermore we have Jon's first PoV, where his troubles are focused on at length, the stigma of being a bastard, his life in general etc. This chapter doesn't really do anything for the narrative other than build up even more Jon sympathy. Nothing of any note happens other than Jon thinking about his life, sadly crying and storming out of the hall after an emotional outburst and of course, people investing more emotional capital in Jon incorporated

Then we have Arya's PoV which is basically all about how she and Jon love each other very much. Again, nothing of narrative importance occurs other than this and Arya's character being established. What is of note is that another close emotional bond is built between Jon and another of his sibling Arya. There is more time spent showing Jon is close to his siblings than any other Stark, or character in the entire series. Jon is built as being a family person first and foremost and just about all readers love him to bits at this point

All of this manipulation is exactly why, Catelyn in particular is despised by readers and that feeling never goes away for most. Jon's first impression as being a stand up guy is so strong and laid on with particular force in the following chapters by GRRM that Catelyn saying something incredibly mean to him, makes it much worse than say Jaime pushing Bran, Bran not being painted as being nearly as good a person as Jon. And all this is when Jon just wants to say goodbye to Bran who he is previously established as being incredibly close to. Readers are quick to forgive Jaime after you get a sob story or two from him, harsh words to Jon aren't forgotten so easily

I feel that some of it is okay, but all of it together makes it feel like I am being tricked

[Shadow Cat 75]

I can understand your point and I feel you are somewhat correct. However George seams to do this with a lot of his POV. I mean we could say the same thing that one of the reasons people love Tyrion is because he is a Dwarf and belittled by his family and Dany with her own brother selling her off for an army to take a land she has never seen.

[The King in Black]

I don't get your point. If Martin intended to introduce Jon and build up his character that way, what's the problem? It's like saying that readers are being 'tricked' into liking Starks and despising the Lannisters from the beginning. It's just the build up. As the story progresses, we see how these characters really are and what they are meant to be.

[sj4iy]

The writer's job is to manipulate you into thinking something. Else wise they aren't very good writers.

We are "manipulated" into hating Joffrey. We are "manipulated" into feeling sorry for Theon. The writer has a POV from which he or she wants the reader to see, and they present the story in such a way as to do so.

Jon's a protagonist. He's one of the few "good guys" in the story. There's absolutely nothing ambiguous about that. You don't have to "love him" or anything ridiculous like that. But Martin wants you to know what kind of character Jon is. And he does.

I do think you are missing the point of Jon's storyline by focussing on this, though. It's never been about him being a good guy or bad guy or liking him or not liking him- thematically, he represents how we typically equate "good" with "honorable", and how real life shows us that the two don't always go hand in hand. He's a good character trying to do good, but he has to give up his honor to do the right thing sometimes.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes.

tbh, I think Jon has been too much presented as someone morally "clean" so far, despite his flaws and mistakes. That's why people assume things to end favourable to him by the end of the books. I'm not saying that he will be the Night's King but he will definitely take very objectionable decisions, make a lot of more mistakes and even become a bit ruthless. And he will "dishonour" himself when taking this decisions. If readers believe this is something that will make them dislike Jon, sucks for them. That's one of the reasons I like Tyrion and Dany in the first place: their ability to want good things but fuck up big.

[The King in Black]

Yes.

tbh, I think Jon has been too much presented as someone morally "clean" so far, despite his flaws and mistakes. That's why people assume things to end favourable to him by the end of the books. I'm not saying that he will be the Night's King but he will definitely take very objectionable decisions, make a lot of more mistakes and even become a bit ruthless. And he will "dishonour" himself when taking this decisions. If readers believe this is something that will make them dislike Jon, sucks for them. That's one of the reasons I like Tyrion and Dany in the first place: their ability to want good things but fuck up big.

Ummm.....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You could make this argument about many main characters, including Dany ("Omg her brother sold her like chattel!"), Tyrion ("Omg he's a dwarf and everyone hates him for it!") and the other Starks ("Omg so honorable to a fault"), and make the opposite argument about characters like Cersei, Joffrey, Roose, etc.

I'm also not getting the "or else" point here. People can and do dislike Jon for whatever reason, and as far as I know no men in black have come to take their books away.

[Contemplative Brother]

It probably all depends on the reader. I actually didn't like Jon much in the first book. His immature response to being appointed to the Stewards and his "who cares at all?" response to Sam trying to explain the importance of the Night's Watch's library kind of soured me on him. I've actually liked him more in the latter books.

[Robb_Warged]

I always liked but felt he was boring. He never became a character with a story I really looked forward to reading till the end of ASOS. I loved his story in ADWD.

[Ser Charles of Rosehaven]

We have been manipulated our whole lives, yet you are the only one who has noticed it. I am feeling depressed. Manipulation even here at this fantastic world.

[sj4iy]

Yes.

tbh, I think Jon has been too much presented as someone morally "clean" so far, despite his flaws and mistakes. That's why people assume things to end favourable to him by the end of the books. I'm not saying that he will be the Night's King but he will definitely take very objectionable decisions, make a lot of more mistakes and even become a bit ruthless. And he will "dishonour" himself when taking this decisions. If readers believe this is something that will make them dislike Jon, sucks for them. That's one of the reasons I like Tyrion and Dany in the first place: their ability to want good things but fuck up big.

You like grey characters.

Jon's not a grey character.

Wanting him to become a grey character to be more like characters you do like isn't true to Jon's actual character. I like grey characters, but I disagree with the notion of making all characters grey just because. That's bad writing, imo.

[Drth Fel]

People can and do dislike Jon for whatever reason, and as far as I know no men in black have come to take their books away.

Yet

[Lord Lannister]

You like grey characters.

Jon's not a grey character.

Wanting him to become a grey character to be more like characters you do like isn't true to Jon's actual character. I like grey characters, but I disagree with the notion of making all characters grey just because. That's bad writing, imo.

Ned tried bribing the city guard into backing him and then lied because he thought it would save his life and his family despite the cost to the realm. That doesn't mean he's a gray character, it just means sometimes characters are plunged into situations where there's no right answer. The closest thing to crisis of conscience Jon has had was his midnight ride to go join Robb's war.

I wouldn't mind seeing Jon plunged into a situation where he really gets his hands dirty. Then we'd see who he really is.

[ummester]

I don't think the books manipulate the reader into liking Jon as much as the show manipulates the viewer into liking Dany.

Of all the characters I think Jon is the most primary monomyth. Doesn't he also have the most POV chapters? I do think his morally grey time is coming, though - I mean if getting killed doesn't piss an emo off, what will?

[JonSnow4President]

I'm a big Jon lover, as I feel is obvious during my name. That love of Jon developed overtime. Early on, he seems like a whiny little bastard who is entitled and doesn't realize his entitlement. I love him because he grew out of that, but I found him to not be that likeable very early on.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Of all the characters I think Jon is the most primary monomyth. Doesn't he also have the most POV chapters?

Agreed on the first part. On the second, he's #2 after Tyrion. Arya is #3.

You like grey characters.

Jon's not a grey character.

Wanting him to become a grey character to be more like characters you do like isn't true to Jon's actual character. I like grey characters, but I disagree with the notion of making all characters grey just because. That's bad writing, imo.

I also agree with this. To be honest I like the idea of having at least one good person to root for, up to this point (I do think it's possible he takes a turn for the worse after the stabbing). I don't think every character necessarily has to be "grey" to be interesting or realistic or likeable. If someone doesn't like Jon because he isn't grey enough, fine, but making Jon grey for shits and giggles to please people who already don't care for him is pointless. Show me a character that everyone likes without exception and I'll show you shitty writing.

[Lord Lannister]

I do think his morally grey time is coming, though - I mean if getting killed doesn't piss an emo off, what will?

I'd love it if Jon woke up from death only to learn there's a 999th LC of the Watch appointed and they're after him. He already decided even before that to go save his family, so I don't think a murder would have the same effect as the Sam's midnight guilt trip. Jon throwing off his cloak and declaring he's going to save his family would be a powerful scene.

[sj4iy]

Ned tried bribing the city guard into backing him and then lied because he thought it would save his life and his family despite the cost to the realm. That doesn't mean he's a gray character, it just means sometimes characters are plunged into situations where there's no right answer. The closest thing to crisis of conscience Jon has had was his midnight ride to go join Robb's war.

I wouldn't mind seeing Jon plunged into a situation where he really gets his hands dirty. Then we'd see who he really is.

Actually, I think he faces his biggest tests on ADWD. Threatening Gilly to take Dalla's child, for example. And agreeing to let Mance get his sister.

But I agree- grey situations don't make a character grey.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes.

That applies to Arya, Tyrion, Ned, Dany, Davos, Brienne, Jaime (as soon as he becomes a PoV), Barristan, Quentyn, Asha as well.

[The Dragons Hand]

You could make this argument about many main characters, including Dany ("Omg her brother sold her like chattel!"), Tyrion ("Omg he's a dwarf and everyone hates him for it!") and the other Starks ("Omg so honorable to a fault"), and make the opposite argument about characters like Cersei, Joffrey, Roose, etc.

I'm also not getting the "or else" point here. People can and do dislike Jon for whatever reason, and as far as I know no men in black have come to take their books away.

Precisely.