Watch, Watched, Watching: TV controls the world

[JonArryn]

See, this is one of the big problems I had with the Godfather, cause her actions make no sense. When Michael shows up back in America and grabs her off the street and says "Marry me!", she agrees and I was like "He's got crazy eyes! Run bitch, RUN!".

They are pretty black and white. The mafia is the barest veneer over violent thuggery. And said veneer is in large part an invention by people talking about the mob. The Godfather didn't describe how mobsters acted and thought about themselves, it told them how to think about themselves. They saw it (or, say, The Sopranos more recently) and then tried to emulate that lifestyle because they are just as effected by culture as you or I.

Right, but this is wrong. The news is skewing your viewpoint heavily. Crime and violence has been falling for decades.

The whole sentence you just quoted I am saying the mobsters are as affected by culture as you and I are, then you come in and just say the exact same thing, what is that even adding? Why don't you read my post and see exactly that that's what my point was about.

Saying mobsters saw The Godfather and tried to emulate their lifestyles after it and not the other way around is ridiculous. You know The Godfather is based on the mob from the beginning right? Where do you think the authors inspiration come from?

Still my point isn't about the violence. The statistics may have gone down decade by decade, even though they do fluctuate in the 2010's and you know they do too. My point was about the basic outlook on human life which I would argue is colder today than it probably was 50 years ago.

[Shryke]

The whole sentence you just quoted I am saying the mobsters are as affected by culture as you and I are, then you come in and just say the exact same thing, what is that even adding? Why don't you read my post and see exactly that that's what my point was about.

Saying mobsters saw The Godfather and tried to emulate their lifestyles after it and not the other way around is ridiculous. You know The Godfather is based on the mob from the beginning right? Where do you think the authors inspiration come from?

No dude, you are wrong here. The Godfather was an is still HUGELY influential on how the mob acts and views itself. You can look this up, it is not an uncommon topic. Puzo fucking admits to having never met a gangster in his life before the book was released. He fucking invented the term The Godfather. They use it because they saw it in the movie and copied it.

The way the mafia views itself in so much as it intersects with The Godfather's depiction is an invention they themselves don't even follow. It's the lie they try to act out because Coppola made their lives look so cool they themselves were flattered and wanted to live that stereotype.

Still my point isn't about the violence. The statistics may have gone down decade by decade, even though they do fluctuate in the 2010's and you know they do too. My point was about the basic outlook on human life which I would argue is colder today than it probably was 50 years ago.

I know actually that they don't fluctuate in the 2010s. Because it's not accurate. In fact, despite the great recession crime is still trending downwards which actually shocked many people who study these things.

Your other contention is simply some sort of unprovable personal feeling. I don't find it to be true at all.

[JonArryn]

No dude, you are wrong here. The Godfather was an is still HUGELY influential on how the mob acts and views itself. You can look this up, it is not an uncommon topic. Puzo fucking admits to having never met a gangster in his life before the book was released. He fucking invented the term The Godfather. They use it because they saw it in the movie and copied it.

The way the mafia views itself in so much as it intersects with The Godfather's depiction is an invention they themselves don't even follow. It's the lie they try to act out because Coppola made their lives look so cool they themselves were flattered and wanted to live that stereotype.

I know actually that they don't fluctuate in the 2010s. Because it's not accurate. In fact, despite the great recession crime is still trending downwards which actually shocked many people who study these things.

Your other contention is simply some sort of unprovable personal feeling. I don't find it to be true at all.

You know the mafia has been around for a long long time right? It was romanticised in the 1920's for crying out loud. Al Capone was like a god damn movie star during his prime. It in no way starts getting more known or more romanticised with The Godfather in the 70's because that's actually around the time the mafia started getting less power in real life.

I just don't think the point you're making here about The Godfather having that influence is adding up. It's people like Luciano and Capone that started the whole trend with gangsters being cool about 50 years before what you're talking about. The first Scarface movie was released in the 20's.

And I'll still stand by my view that the world is getting colder and colder regarding the outlook on life and humans in general, but as you say that might just be the cynicist in me speaking.

[Jace, Extat]

Watched 'Secretary' (2002) starring Maggie Gyllenhaal and James Spader at the prodding of a friend.

It was... ok?

I can clearly see that this is what 50 Shades of Grey ripped off (including the name of the fucking lawyer), and I thought it was interesting.

However, I don't know much about the bondage/submission factors at play, so I'm not quite sure I 'got' it. The 3rd act was particularly confusing to me.

[Shryke]

You know the mafia has been around for a long long time right? It was romanticised in the 1920's for crying out loud. Al Capone was like a god damn movie star during his prime. It in no way starts getting more known or more romanticised with The Godfather in the 70's because that's actually around the time the mafia started getting less power in real life.

I just don't think the point you're making here about The Godfather having that influence is adding up. It's people like Luciano and Capone that started the whole trend with gangsters being cool about 50 years before what you're talking about. The first Scarface movie was released in the 20's.

Look dude, if you aren't even going to bother pretending you aren't being deliberately ignorant about this, there's no point in continuing this conversation. Google the issue and come back after you've done some reading. It's a widespread and talked about phenomenon. It's easy to find stuff on it.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Watched Interview with the Vampire for the first time. Excellent movie with great performances from Kirsten Dunst and Tom Cruise.

[Nictarion]

Watched Interview with the Vampire for the first time. Excellent movie with great performances from Kirsten Dunst and Tom Cruise.

Cruise killed it as Lestat. Loved that movie.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Cruise killed it as Lestat. Loved that movie.

Yeah, probably my favourite performance of his(I haven't seen too many of his older stuff).

Also, Kirsten Dunst's performance was so mature, can't believe she was only 14 at the time.

[JonArryn]

Look dude, if you aren't even going to bother pretending you aren't being deliberately ignorant about this, there's no point in continuing this conversation. Google the issue and come back after you've done some reading. It's a widespread and talked about phenomenon. It's easy to find stuff on it.

If I'm being ignorant so are you. You're disregarding facts to make your own point seem more valid.

Everyone who disagrees with you are ignorant or need to read up on things. Reality check overdue? Well, in this instance I think you should read up and not base your whole discussion on an article from wikipedia.

What you have to understand is that while The Godfather is influential the mafia was world famous and romanticised long before the 70's. But your view from that high horse is so obstructing you can't even read the post you're discussing objectively.

I'm done with this discussion.

[Mark Antony]

I think you guys are both right and the argument is kinda pointless :dunno:

The Godfather was influenced by The Mafia and The Godfather influenced The Mafia :) they aren't mutually exclusive

[Veltigar]

Right, that's issue I'm talking about. They have to show how incredibly fun it was to accurately show what was occurring but that in and of itself works against the premise of the movie.

I guess you're right, it is a bit of a catch-22. Still, I think any moderatly intelligent viewer should be able to come to the right conclusion :)

Again, we are getting nowhere in this discussion, I'm not gonna sway your opinion, and you're not gonna sway mine. And I didn't know you decided what is and isn't relevant to this discussion. And I definitely think Michael's wife is relevant to a discussion if you're gonna talk about the portrayal of the mob in The Godfather. She is basically the closest thing the audience has to a character like them I guess. She is seeing Michael kind of like the audience's eyes are seeing him.

I decide what is relevant when you try to pull an Aunt Sally on me. In my initial post I showed that Michael went after people who targeted his family, like the killer of his first wife. This is fact. Pointing out that his second wife Kay played a bigger role in his life (which is obvious since she has a much bigger presence in the movie) like you did was completely beside the point that was being made. In other words, it wasn't relevant.

Again, we are getting nowhere in this discussion, I'm not gonna sway your opinion, and you're not gonna sway mine. And I didn't know you decided what is and isn't relevant to this discussion. I have brought up things about Michael as a character, you have brought up things about Henry Hill as a character. And I definitely think Michael's wife is relevant to a discussion if you're gonna talk about the portrayal of the mob in The Godfather. She is basically the closest thing the audience has to a character like them I guess. She is seeing Michael kind of like the audience's eyes are seeing him.

Again, you speak in absolutes way too much. The world isn't black and white, it's gray and you just have to accept that. There are criminals with a code and there are many criminals without a code. That the code is hypocriticial I won't argue, but the mob did have some kind of honor codes, and more back in the 70's. Nowadays that code isn't as important anymore, but to say there's never been one is pretty ignorant.

Honestly, how do you still fail to grasp this. This code of honour shit is not only hypocritical, it's also a fiction. Every criminal organization, especially one that forms a tight-knit subculture like the mobsters do, have some unwritten rules to follow. Those rules are enforced by violence and fear. Basically, it boils down to you snitch, you die. That's not an honour code, it's just a protection mechanism.

Disguising it as a code of honour is something mobsters like to do and it is something popular culture has glorified. Which in turn might have influence some mobsters, after all Il n'ya pas de hors texte and all that Jazz. When push comes to shove though, these crooks will break that code whenever they think they can get away with it. That's the nature of the beast. They don't snitch, because they're affraid to get whacked. If they feel they can get away with it, they'll spill their beans to save their own skins.

I'm not trying to romanticise the mob here with my post, I'm just trying to give a more nuanced view than you have done thus far. I agree that the mob is despicable in most ways, but you're making it too easy when you paint it all in black and white.

It's a shame, you're doing quite a good job romanticing these criminals. Tell me, in which ways is the mob not despicable? You say they are only despicable in most ways, so there have to be some good things about them. Enlighten me, how do they improve society.

And when I say the street is getting colder I'm not talking about how many murders or how much violence is being committed every year statistically. That fluctuates from year to year in many big cities, the thing I'm talking about is that it's a colder look about human life than it was before.

So, what you're saying is that you dismiss good, scientifically sound, hard evidence in favour of some random feeling you have. Okay. Strange.

The world is a lot more cynical now than it was 50 years ago, and I don't even have to explain why. Just look at the news and you'll see for yourself.

Sadly, I don't watch FOX :P

Seriously though, your perception is warped. The news nowadays mostly thrives on spectacle. That's what brings the viewers in. If you look at the actual numbers, you can see a clear decline in the amount of murders and violent crimes over the year. As to society being more cynical than it was 50 years ago, that might be the case. It is however not more violent than before. I mean just look at the USA, in 1964 segregation was still in full swing. The Berlin wall had been erected only three years prior. The Vietnamwar had been going on for 9 years, etc.

The world isn't perfect, but it's still better than it was 50 years ago. The news lies when it claims otherwise.

See, this is one of the big problems I had with the Godfather, cause her actions make no sense. When Michael shows up back in America and grabs her off the street and says "Marry me!", she agrees and I was like "He's got crazy eyes! Run bitch, RUN!".

I agree. I thought that the wife in Goodfellas was a lot more realistic as a charatcer. She's also an outsider, she gets drawn in by Hill's machismo and the fact that he's dangerous and powerful. And then bamn before she knows it she's locked in the milieu. She only socializes with other mobsters wifes, goes on vacation and parties with them, etc. That has an impact on her moral compass, which slides from being just a normal women to happily help her husband smuggle cocaine.

They are pretty black and white. The mafia is the barest veneer over violent thuggery. And said veneer is in large part an invention by people talking about the mob. The Godfather didn't describe how mobsters acted and thought about themselves, it told them how to think about themselves. They saw it (or, say, The Sopranos more recently) and then tried to emulate that lifestyle because they are just as effected by culture as you or I.

Right, but this is wrong. The news is skewing your viewpoint heavily. Crime and violence has been falling for decades.

:agree:

[l2 0 5 5]

Finally watching The Shield. The first season has been amazing, and I've heard it just gets better.

Also digging The Affair. The unreliable narrator perspective is brilliant. Doesn't hurt that I'm a big Dominic West fan, and enjoy Ruth Wilson in Luther.

[Mark Antony]

Finally watching The Shield. The first season has been amazing, and I've heard it just gets better.

Yessir after just finishing I can safely say season 1 is its worst. 5 and 7 rank among the best seasons ever.

[l2 0 5 5]

Yessir after just finishing I can safely say season 1 is its worst. 5 and 7 rank among the best seasons ever.

I'm looking forward to it. :cheers:

ETA: I saw your thread a week or so ago and it prompted me to finally order it. I've heard good stuff about it before but needed that final kick to do it.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Watched 2/3rds of GoldenEye. It's the first pre-Craig Bond movie I've watched. So far I like how it doesn't take itself seriously.

I'll finish it off tomorrow afternoon.

[Shryke]

If I'm being ignorant so are you. You're disregarding facts to make your own point seem more valid.

Everyone who disagrees with you are ignorant or need to read up on things. Reality check overdue? Well, in this instance I think you should read up and not base your whole discussion on an article from wikipedia.

What you have to understand is that while The Godfather is influential the mafia was world famous and romanticised long before the 70's. But your view from that high horse is so obstructing you can't even read the post you're discussing objectively.

I'm done with this discussion.

No, that's what you are doing. You are just ignorantly repeating the same crap and never even bothering to try and think about or research (juts with Google!) what you are saying.

Like, 2 seconds:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/sep/29/mafia-gangster-films-godfather

Here, this ones even better:

The most interesting part about "The Godfather" is how Mario Puzo created it. According to Puzo, he had no help in creating the personas and idiosyncrasies of the mob. He claims that it was all imagined. Puzo himself was not an expert on Sicilian history or Mafia relations. In contrast he was more of an academic, winning critical acclaim on his first publications. (Goldberg, Jeffery) He has claimed to have written the book while hard-pressed for cash, hoping for a commercial success. Well, he seems to have struck gold, writing a classic story that has stood the test of time to be loved by multiple generations of people around the world. However, still even after portraying a gangster existence, he would refuse to write articles about the Mafia claiming he had no real knowledge on the subject.

http://www.umich.edu/~themafia/cultureanalyses.html

Again, Puzo invented the whole Godfather thing. The mob adopted the title from the book/movie.

And one could go on. There's no shortage of stuff on the movie's influence on the mafia.

Look man, I get that you had this whole idea in your head about how The Godfather is totally accurate or something, but it's not. It's flim-flam. The mob says "That's totally the way it is" the same way 10 years ago every 20-30 something group of girls were claiming Sex and the City were totally a reflection of how they live. Because it was a piece of popular media that claimed to reflect their life and they liked that image so they adopted it. To tell a story to themselves and others about how cool they were cause the movie/show/etc was so cool.

When confronted with new information you can evaluate it and change your mind or you can double down on ignorance and just keep repeating the same wrong shit over and over again like a brain-damaged circus animal. I've no idea why you've decided to chose the second here.

[Nictarion]

Yessir after just finishing I can safely say season 1 is its worst. 5 and 7 rank among the best seasons ever.

Just finished S5. It's incredible. My favorite season so far. The season 2 and 5 finales are standouts for me. Can't wait to finish it. It's as good as advertised.

[Mark Antony]

Just finished S5. It's incredible

How great was Whitaker?

[Nictarion]

Watched 2/3rds of GoldenEye. It's the first pre-Craig Bond movie I've watched. So far I like how it doesn't take itself seriously.

I'll finish it off tomorrow afternoon.

Goldeneye is amazing. Probably my favorite Bond movie. It has a great cast,especially Sean Bean and Famke Jannsen. It's a shame none of the other Pierce Brosnan Bonds ever came close to the quality of GoldenEye.

[Nictarion]

How great was Whitaker?

He really was.

It's hard not to feel sorry for him. He was completely outmatched against Vic. I hate him for Lem though.😢