LordStoneheart Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Ned. Even though he was a monstrous traitor that tried to overthrow the crown he still was an honorable family man. He didn't try to overthrow the crown. He tried to give it to the lawful ruler, Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Killer Snark Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 TC is being an amusing troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 He didn't try to overthrow the crown. He tried to give it to the lawful ruler, Stannis. Technically Joffrey was the lawful heir, but Stannis was the rightful one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I cannot feel any sort of sympathy whatever for Tywin. The man was a socioipathic monster with not a single redeeming quality, and in fact if one looks at the amount of damage inflicted on the realm and on those around him by his megalomania, he is probably the very worst character in the books.Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Viserys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carry Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Theon but his sins are not that terribleJaime ever since we could read from his ptvViserys when you really think about it, he was mostly only trying to get what he truely believed was his birthrightSandor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 He didn't try to overthrow the crown. He tried to give it to the lawful ruler, Stannis. What about the lawful ruler Aerys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Technically Joffrey was the lawful heir, but Stannis was the rightful one. Actually, no. Joffrey was not Robert's child and we as readers know that, so he's not the lawful or rightful one. What about the lawful ruler Aerys? The rebellion was justifed. Cersei passing her bastards off as Baratheons and killing those who knew she was committing this treason was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Actually, no. Joffrey was not Robert's child and we as readers know that, so he's not the lawful or rightful one. Actually, Joffrey was the lawful heir. By law he is Robert's child. Stannis is the rightful heir; Ned knew Joffrey was Jaime's son, and that's something that the readers know. But as far as most of Westeros is concerned Robert fathered those children, and those are his lawful heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Actually, Joffrey was the lawful heir. By law he is Robert's child. Stannis is the rightful heir; Ned knew Joffrey was Jaime's son, and that's something that the readers know. But as far as most of Westeros is concerned Robert fathered those children, and those are his lawful heirs. You're essentially saying that because Cersei wasn't caught, it wasn't against the law. It was. Cersei herself knew she was breaking that law. It was something she deliberately planned. Just because the majority of the kingdom doesn't know or accept the truth doesn't mean we have to act as if the lies are real. Joffrey is not the lawful heir or the rightful heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhaenys666 Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Sandor. Only because grrm said he was a villain. And I love him.Theon, I'm actually glad everything awful happened to him. I never liked him even before his daddy issues were apparent. I feel bad for Khal Drogo but mostly for dany's sake. Also I don't think he was technically a villian, just a man from a veeeerrrrry different culture we consider barbaric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 You're essentially saying that because Cersei wasn't caught, it wasn't against the law. It was. Cersei herself knew she was breaking that law. It was something she deliberately planned. Just because the majority of the kingdom doesn't know or accept the truth doesn't mean we have to act as if the lies are real. Joffrey is not the lawful heir or the rightful heir. No. I'm essentially saying that in the eyes of the law the children are Robert's because he acknowledged them as his children. That's how the law works. You're confusing morality with legality here. Stannis is the rightful and lawful heir in his eyes as he believes the children to be bastards. To the eyes of most of the realm he's trying to usurp the throne of his nephew - his brother's son and lawful heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 No. I'm essentially saying that in the eyes of the law the children are Robert's because he acknowledged them as his children. That's how the law works. You're confusing morality with legality here. Stannis is the rightful and lawful heir in his eyes as he believes the children to be bastards. To the eyes of most of the realm he's trying to usurp the throne of his nephew - his brother's son and lawful heir. Knows. He knows the children to be bastards. WE know the children to be bastards. Ned knew. Jaime knew. Cersei knew. Tyrion knew. You're speaking as if that is insignificant when it is not. It's the seed that the war sprouted from. Had Robert known the kids were not his, he most likely would not have allowed them to take his name. If that's the angle that the "treacherous Ned" bases itself on, it's a weak base. Robert was dying and Eddard still loved him. He was hardly going to tell him that the three children he sort of raised were not his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Killer Snark Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I think we have to draw a line between grey characters like Sandor, Stannis, Jaime, Theon and even Tyrion, who all at some point or other, mostly Tyrion, show qualities of good, justice or redemption, and focus only on outright villainous characters with no hope of redemption, but with sympathetic attributes, though those don't justify their crimes. Some would disagree here, but it's very hard to regard Stannis for instance, when he's actually one of the series' most more moral characters, for all of the shit he does, as a villain. Hell, even Dany does some really bad things. Most of the characters in the novels do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chibubbi Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I really felt sorry for Theon when he finally became Reek. The first time I saw his chapter as Reek and read it, I cried because he's so broken and he's really suffering but he can't do anything about it because he was too brainwashed to the point that he's afraid to do anything without Ramsay's permission and he thinks he can never escape from him. I also felt sorry for Viserys when I learned about his backstory. Like, he was forced to sell his own mom's crown just for them to have something to eat and I bet it really hurt him when he was called the "beggar king" even though he was supposed to be sitting on the iron throne. It was also not easy to keep him and Daenerys alive because aside from problems with basic needs, they were also being hunted down by assassins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound3.0 Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I really felt sorry for Theon when he finally became Reek. The first time I saw his chapter as Reek and read it, I cried because he's so broken and he's really suffering but he can't do anything about it because he was too brainwashed to the point that he's afraid to do anything without Ramsay's permission and he thinks he can never escape from him. I also felt sorry for Viserys when I learned about his backstory. Like, he was forced to sell his own mom's crown just for them to have something to eat and I bet it really hurt him when he was called the "beggar king" even though he was supposed to be sitting on the iron throne. It was also not easy to keep him and Daenerys alive because aside from problems with basic needs, they were also being hunted down by assassins.Well stated. Expect that Viserys, was never suppose to sit the IT. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Never Viserys. Cersei though, I feel bad for Cersei. Massive fall from 'grace'. Grace in her own mind, of course, but grace nonetheless. Coulda, woulda, shoulda and she still doesn't get it. Great villanness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Shitmouth-While he a villian by working for Gregor, He not that bad of a dude and Arya even left out his name on her list. I feel sorry for him because even though he less evil than Walder Frey, He work for the Lannister and that a death sentence in the eyes of Stoneheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodKiller Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I dont think there's any "villain" I feel sorry for. I liked Jamie before he lost his hand, and never really even considered him a villain. He was such an asshole that i liked him. All others can die for all i care. I thoroughly enjoyed Cersei's walk of shame and theons torture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Knows. He knows the children to be bastards. WE know the children to be bastards. Ned knew. Jaime knew. Cersei knew. Tyrion knew. You're speaking as if that is insignificant when it is not. It's the seed that the war sprouted from. Had Robert known the kids were not his, he most likely would not have allowed them to take his name. If that's the angle that the "treacherous Ned" bases itself on, it's a weak base. Robert was dying and Eddard still loved him. He was hardly going to tell him that the three children he sort of raised were not his. Actually, I'm not claiming the paternity issue is insignificant. Please do not tell me what I am and am not claiming. I am pointing out that under the letter of the law Joffrey is the heir, but have acknowledged that Stannis (The Mannis) is the rightful and moral heir. You're not differentiating between legality and morality, and are now just inferring what my point is. But as far as Robert knew, the children were his, and thus his lawful heirs Please point out where I've called Ned traitorous, or what relevance the death bed part has to the point we were discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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