Illogical amount of disdain for Dothraki, Ironborn and Unsullied.

[James Arryn]

stop saying that the Dorathki are base upond Mongols.

They don't wear fucking armour, ever.

They don't use foot soldiers or engineers.

Ironborn aren't vikinngs

GO READ NON fiction

they come back here and fucking whine some more

NO one ever used eunoch soldiers

You seem tense, honey.

[James Arryn]

OP, it's just more of the same that happens here every day - posters confusing what they desperately want to happen with what they think is likely to happen.

In this case, Dany being shown (in a "brilliant twist") to be a complete military failure, and utterly defeated by OMG SO COOL Westerosi as soon as she makes landfall.

It's obvious nonsense. If the Dothraki or the Unsullied were "completely worthless" like some would have you believe, Jorah, Barristan, or at the very least Tyrion would have brought it to our attention even if you think against all evidence that Dany is hopelessly stupid. What was most hilarious to me was the argument that Unsullied cannot possibly learn how to use pikes ...because reasons. :dunno:

There's no reason the U.S. couldn't learn to use pikes, but it's a very different weapon, and kinda wastes their eons old specialization.

Here I go again, allowing a particular post and my own rhetorical momentum to push me into debates I have no dog in. I am dumb.

[Minstral]

I have not watched the History Channel since they brought on the new crap, as it certainly is not history anymore with the reality shows, aliens, and doomsday nonsense. It may be one of the main reasons that I don't watch TV these days actually, that and my virulent hatred of movies like "Braveheart" and "300". That said, I expect that they will never change their name. Calling themselves "History" is more or less a successful brand at this point that would lose them money if and credibility if they were to label themselves for what they have turned into. Think about MTV in the USA. They have a hugely successful brand due to the fact that they used to feature music on their channel and it was one of the only sources for people to listen to free music on a regular basis. With that not being the case anymore with the internet they instead turn to reality shows of vapid people and an occasional award show I think. They are still going to keep their logo and call themselves "Music Television" despite not actually showcasing music. They lose more then they gain to re-brand themselves, and while the History Channel is smaller I don't believe that they would abandon its name for the same reasons.

On the ideas for hate to these groups.... They do come off as unrealistic to an extent in the examples of the Unsullied and Dothraki. Steppe people didn't eschew armor as the Dothraki does, and the Unsullied effectiveness has been questioned. And as mentioned by others, the culture of these groups seems a little flat at this point. We might see in the future that the Dothraki will get more fleshed out culturally in their interactions with Dany in TWOW, and perhaps we will see more of this god that the Unsullied have. I am not holding my breath for the Ironmen though.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

There's no reason the U.S. couldn't learn to use pikes, but it's a very different weapon, and kinda wastes their eons old specialization.

Here I go again, allowing a particular post and my own rhetorical momentum to push me into debates I have no dog in. I am dumb.

I mean if we wnat to unearth this debate:

1) we don't actually know that they don't already use pikes.

2) We don't know that they've been frozen into a single "eons old specialization" like you suggest

3) Even if both of those are true they will be the fastest learners imaginable given their unmatched discipline and focus.

Could the Unsullied prove to be completely useless against knights? I mean, I suppose? It doesn't seem likely to me given they have most likely been involved in combats involving companies of Heavy Horse in the free cities and SB, but to be honest we don't have a lot of information either way. Given that, the certainty with which certain people (not you) assert how completely useless they will be definitely smacks of wishful thinking to me.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

On my end it isn't so much disdain (although I dislike most of the ironborn, but that's personal taste) as much as it is pointing out flaws or weaknesses that people miss. For example, the Unsullied victory at Qohor was pretty much entirely reliant on the Dothraki doing something stupid like 1. not flanking when they could have and 2. making the same idiot charge over and over again and expecting different results. Good on the Unsullied for holding, but against a more competent foe it would have been a different story. And of course, on the flip side, it doesn't speak very highly of the Dothraki that they underestimated their foe in such a way. We also almost always see the Unsullied in defensive positions, guarding cities or households or acting as police.

I also don't see the issue of pointing out that Dothraki would probably be inferior to armored knights when we have examples of knights in armor in the story defeating Dothraki fighters (Jorah in his armor comes to mind). The Dothraki aren't really conquerors so much as they're pillagers. They sack, raid, take what they need and move on. So using them in a conquest situation, where you need to not only take territory but hold it and administer to it, might be difficult.

Some people may unfairly disdain them, but for every one of those, there's another one who overinflates their strength. It goes both ways.

And I have never said or thought that the dragons are unstoppable. I think that's as ridiculous an assertion as you do.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Maybe, however the Wildlings are generally no better and they don't get as much hate.

Probably because people view them more as victims than IB and Dothraki because of the whole wall thing. Their agenda during the events of the series is largely seen as primarily trying to survive against some supernatural force so it tends to get them some sympathy. Also, some just have really strong/likable personalities. I definitely think they get free passes as they certainly have some of the same negative behaviors imbedded in their cultures, we just see a wider selection of behaviors overall.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe, however the Wildlings are generally no better and they don't get as much hate.

Perhaps because their attack on the south was motivated by self-preservation, not conquest, and wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if they had been treated like human beings and allowed south of the Wall in the first place?

[Minsc]

Perhaps because their attack on the south was motivated by self-preservation, not conquest, and wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if they had been treated like human beings and allowed south of the Wall in the first place?

And their numerous raids down south before the return of the Others?

[James Arryn]

I mean if we wnat to unearth this debate:

1) we don't actually know that they don't already use pikes.

2) We don't know that they've been frozen into a single "eons old specialization" like you suggest

3) Even if both of those are true they will be the fastest learners imaginable given their unmatched discipline and focus.

Could the Unsullied prove to be completely useless against knights? I mean, I suppose? It doesn't seem likely to me given they have most likely been involved in combats involving companies of Heavy Horse in the free cities and SB, but to be honest we don't have a lot of information either way. Given that, the certainty with which certain people (not you) assert how completely useless they will be definitely smacks of wishful thinking to me.

I have never seen/been party to this discussion before, that I can remember, so apologies for unwittingly raking over old ground.

1) I agree it's not certain they don't use pikes, though generally speaking pikes and biggish shields don't handle well. There's the possibility of mixed arms, but I get a uniform impression.

2) I also get the impression they are, kinda, but there's no real source either way. Hyper conservatism seems to me to be the US theme, but all it takes is one line from GRRM to upset that notion.

3) hmm. Not sure. I can see your point, but like British driving or 1-finger typing, martial skills can be harder to unlearn than learn. But I agree there is a lot of carry over possible here. Phillip of Macedon changed the game in basically a generation.

Lastly, I have never been of the opinion that the US will be useless in Westeros. Far from it. I think they need some real help, but as the belly of the beast they should do fine.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Im just going to relax and wait until BBE and Nyhrex start dropping their hurting bombs.

But by the way, of course they suck. And the argument that they will win if Martin wants them to win is just... dumb... According to this theres not point event to have a forum, since every thread besides "which is your fauvorite house" would have the same answer.

Now, I m not going to say that IV BC infantery can beat XIV heavy cavalry. Im not stupid. They dont have the slightest chance. Martin described them in that way folks, theres not much room there.

Martin described some animals westerosi call Horses and other animals called donkeys. As far as Im concerned Martins horses should be faster than his donkeys, until he gives me a text example against this.

[Minstral]

And their numerous raids down south before the return of the Others?

Something that almost all tribes embarked upon prior to becoming "civilized". Franks, Saxons, Magyars, any tribe in Gaul before its conquest of Romans, Etc. Often times these would be younger warriors that would attempt to prove themselves before attaching themselves to more well known warriors. In an oral tradition this is something that in a way defines the borders of a tribe/group.

[James Arryn]

Something that almost all tribes embarked upon prior to becoming "civilized". Franks, Saxons, Magyars, any tribe in Gaul before its conquest of Romans, Etc. Often times these would be younger warriors that would attempt to prove themselves before attaching themselves to more well known warriors. In an oral tradition this is something that in a way defines the borders of a tribe/group.

I am coming into this late, so probably missing a lot, but raiding culture doesn't even approach ending once 'civilization' happens. A lot of medieval history reads like larger scale mafia fiction. The 'empowered' would often behave pretty much like bandits, holed up in their forts in between raids or protection money fund raisers.

[Minsc]

Something that almost all tribes embarked upon prior to becoming "civilized". Franks, Saxons, Magyars, any tribe in Gaul before its conquest of Romans, Etc. Often times these would be younger warriors that would attempt to prove themselves before attaching themselves to more well known warriors. In an oral tradition this is something that in a way defines the borders of a tribe/group.

I am aware of stuff of like that, however the point is the Wildling tribes still commit similar actions to that of the Ironborn and Dothraki nor do they seem all that willing to want to change their ways either.

[Minstral]

I am coming into this late, so probably missing a lot, but raiding culture doesn't even approach ending once 'civilization' happens. A lot of medieval history reads like larger scale mafia fiction. The 'empowered' would often behave pretty much like bandits, holed up in their forts in between raids or protection money fund raisers.

Oh I am very aware, but looking for equivalents to the Wildings I think it is more apt to use tribes for tribes then Medieval and classical "civilized" examples. .

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am aware of stuff of like that, however the point is the Wildling tribes still commit similar actions to that of the Ironborn and Dothraki nor do they seem all that willing to want to change their ways either.

Isn't that ... pretty much what they're doing now? Integrating into the Watch, becoming disciplined, training, taking orders, etc. I don't recall reading about hordes of them going on raids once they're through the Wall in ADWD.

[James Arryn]

Im just going to relax and wait until BBE and Nyhrex start dropping their hurting bombs.

But by the way, of course they suck. And the argument that they will win if Martin wants them to win is just... dumb... According to this theres not point event to have a forum, since every thread besides "which is your fauvorite house" would have the same answer.

Now, I woundt say IV BC infantery can beat XIV heavy cavalry. Im not stupid. They dont have the slightest chance. Martin described them in that way folks, theres not much room there.

The models aren't necessarily as problematic as you suggest when you remove the onset prime mover of gunpowder.

Standard let's say Greek phalanx formation vs. Heavy cavalry charge is more vulnerable than pike, yes. But the principle vulnerability is still the human nature reaction to charging cavalry, ie flight instinct, and while the h.c. Should get deeper penetration, if the men don't break the cavalry will eventually lose impetus.

Now in most cases that means the men will break, but it's possible the US discipline is an X factor here.

[Minsc]

Isn't that ... pretty much what they're doing now? Integrating into the Watch, becoming disciplined, training, taking orders, etc. I don't recall reading about hordes of them going on raids once they're through the Wall in ADWD.

Seeing how the alternative was die by Ice Monsters I don't give them much credit, and no individuals like the Weeper don't seem like they cared all that much.

[Ratmancampidori]

Well, maybe not the Hound, King Robert, or the Golden Company. But certainly Sweetrobin an do all these things.

XD lol

[Ingelheim]

Well, Unsullied are weaker than the average Westerosi. In fact, they should be far weaker, since they were castrated when they were childs, but we can forget this.

The problem comes with their tactics and weapons.

The same happens with the Dothraki.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm still seeing people stating that the Hound could singlehandedly kill all of Daenarys Unsullied, or the Golden Company could destroy every Dothraki horde on the planet, or Balon Greyjoy was lucky Robert didn't kill every last Ironborn man, woman and child because he could have done it in his sleep.

I am here for about 3 years and I have never seen anyone to say something like that.

Robert had an army and of course if he wanted he could had killed every Ironborn.

People, like me, who hate IB, Dothraki and the Unsullied hate them because they don't do anything. They only pillage, rape and kill. What is to like?