Tower of Joy Question

[Lord Lannister]

I was thinking about Ned lifting the Siege of Storm's End when this question occurred to me. When Ned was lifting the siege he had command of the Baratheon/Stark/Arryn/Tully host since Robert was injured at the Trident.

That means he had a large army at his command, many of whom are personally loyal to House Stark. Storm's End is fairly close to the Red Mountains and the Tower of Joy, so why did Ned only take himself and six others there?

It's not like Robert would've begrudged him taking the royal forces to rescue Lyanna. Even if that was the case or Ned just didn't want to ask, a solid core of that army were northerners and it's been firmly established that most of the Stark bannermen are devoutly loyal to their liege lord.

It could be argued he was in a hurry, but that still doesn't add up either. Sure, the infantry would've slowed them down a lot but a mounted force of a hundred or so men isn't going to move that much slower than a half dozen. It also couldn't have been to protect the secret of Jon. Because he didn't know about that yet, right?

They knew that at least three of the Kingsguard were unaccounted for as Ned stated he looked for them on the Trident. The fact that Ned knew where Lyanna was suggest that Rhaegar wasn't relying completely on secrecy. So possibly he could've had an entire garrison looking after his prize. Even a handful of others would've had that encounter end differently as is.

It just seems a dangerous move to make, taking only a handful to rescue her. Though I suppose Ned wouldn't be thinking rationally at the moment given how pissed he was at Robert coupled with worry for his sister. Still, it just doesn't add up completely for me. But I suppose we still don't have all the pertinent information.

[Chilli]

It also couldn't have been to protect the secret of Jon. Because he didn't know about that yet, right?

Maybe the person who told him where to find Lyanna did tell him something but not everything?

[Ygritte]

Well, my theory is that he got tipped off by Ashara,and in that situation, the location wouldn't have been common knowledge. And from her, he might also have gotten information about how many guards were there.

But that aside, I think he's trying to be discreet because he doesn't know what situation he will find. He mentions that he only took trusted men. And the tower is in a small pass where a big army might not help as much as you'd think.

[Harry the Hair]

It could be something simple like a group of seven men travels faster than an army. But then again why seven? Did he know that there was going to only be three KG or was he hoping to demand a trial by seven once he got there? Who knows; everything that was revealed about the TOJ thus far seems a bit odd.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Travel Speed?

Makes a better, more mysterious story?

GRRM wrote it that way originally and now is stuck with that storyline?

Rhaegar is dead so he thought he didn't need an army to travel with them?

He had Howland Reed with Kermit which is better than any army. :D

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Maybe he thought he'd be facing seven men and wanted a fair fight

[The Bastard of Walton]

I think he had half expected the three Kingsguard to have left for Dragonstone. At that point Viserys was the Heir & that's where they should have been.

[Harry the Hair]

Maybe he thought he'd be facing seven men and wanted a fair fight

But then again the same question comes up; why did he think there will be seven men, did someone tell him that or did he just guess? Maybe he assumed that whatever happens he would be allowed a trial by seven so he took the bare amount that he thought was necessary. I guess we won't know until the next book comes out.

[TallTyrion]

We still don't know how he found out about the tower. Someone from house Dayne is the best bet, Ashara being the most obvious candidate, so that probably played a role.

There's a SSM about Ashara not being nailed down in Starfall during the rebellion so I think that's a good indication she may have provided the info.

[SFDanny]

I was thinking about Ned lifting the Siege of Storm's End when this question occurred to me. When Ned was lifting the siege he had command of the Baratheon/Stark/Arryn/Tully host since Robert was injured at the Trident.

That means he had a large army at his command, many of whom are personally loyal to House Stark. Storm's End is fairly close to the Red Mountains and the Tower of Joy, so why did Ned only take himself and six others there?

It's not like Robert would've begrudged him taking the royal forces to rescue Lyanna. Even if that was the case or Ned just didn't want to ask, a solid core of that army were northerners and it's been firmly established that most of the Stark bannermen are devoutly loyal to their liege lord.

It could be argued he was in a hurry, but that still doesn't add up either. Sure, the infantry would've slowed them down a lot but a mounted force of a hundred or so men isn't going to move that much slower than a half dozen. It also couldn't have been to protect the secret of Jon. Because he didn't know about that yet, right?

They knew that at least three of the Kingsguard were unaccounted for as Ned stated he looked for them on the Trident. The fact that Ned knew where Lyanna was suggest that Rhaegar wasn't relying completely on secrecy. So possibly he could've had an entire garrison looking after his prize. Even a handful of others would've had that encounter end differently as is.

It just seems a dangerous move to make, taking only a handful to rescue her. Though I suppose Ned wouldn't be thinking rationally at the moment given how pissed he was at Robert coupled with worry for his sister. Still, it just doesn't add up completely for me. But I suppose we still don't have all the pertinent information.

I love this question. It's been gone over many times in the years I've been here, and probably more before that, but it still is a huge gap in our understanding of what went on in those last days of Robert's Rebellion. The conclusion I draw from the observations about the numbers Ned takes to him to the tower is that Ned knew something of what he would face when he got there, and Ned needed both speed and secrecy to get to Lyanna. If it is just a question of speed, then why not 50 or 200 horsemen instead of seven? The answer, I think, is in who he takes not just the number of men. All the men - Martin Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Ser Mark Ryswell, Lord Dustin, and Howland Reed are bannermen of Ned. There are no men from the Stormlands, the Vale, the Riverlands, or anyplace else. They have sworn a oath of fealty to Ned as their lord. We know many of them have been through the rebellion at least since the Battle of the Bells (some are noted to be at his wedding.) Howland's relationship goes back at least to Harrenhal, and others could go back further as well. So, in the context of Ned's fight with Robert at Robert's coronation it is especially of interest that only Ned's bannermen go with him. I draw the conclusion that Ned doesn't want Robert to know what he finds at the tower, and he is taking measures to prevent this from happening. In addition, Ned is going into Dorne and Dorne is still an active enemy of the rebellion. Remember the stories we get of the Red Viper trying to rally people to avenge Elia and her children and Tywin's remarks about how it isn't until Jon Arryn travels to Sunspear that they get any assurances of peace with Dorne. So, secrecy is paramount in both getting into Dorne without invading Dorne with a hostile force and prolonging the war, and in stopping Robert from having independent information about what Ned finds at the tower.

As to why Ned fears letting Robert know what he finds, I think the answer is simple: He knows his sister went willingly with Rhaegar, had at least strong attractions to the Prince, had none of those feelings for Robert, and knows that there could be a child from Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship. Robert deludes himself about Lyanna, but what would he do to her if she came back to him and tells him she loved Rhaegar and wants nothing to do with being Robert's wife? If she has Rhaegar's child, legitimate or not, what would Robert do to her child? Ned can't know the answers to this after seeing what his response is to the brutal murders of Elia and her children. He can't take the chance Robert finds out the truth. So the secrecy.

Now, a interesting question intertwined with this is just how and when does Ned find out where Lyanna is? Quite a few years ago I compiled a list of the various likely possibilities depending on when he finds out and posted it in one of the very early R+L=J threads, but that was just after A Feast for Crows came out and new information needs to be added. However, I agree with Ygritte, that my favorite candidate still is Ashara Dayne for the how, and during the surrender of besieging forces at Storm's End as the most likely when of the matter. I think Ashara likely is important in the selection of the tower of joy for Rhaegar's and Lyanna's refuge and for it's supply of goods and information. I think Ashara probably sounds out Ned on what his plans are for Lyanna after he finds her and once she is assured that Ned isn't just going to turn her or the others at the tower over to Robert's judgement, she lets him know where Lyanna is and that the Kingsguard trio are with her. Ned takes a number of men he thinks can handle the worst possible situation (he is barely right) and heads off to the tower.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Thanks for bringing back up a interesting topic.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It could be something simple like a group of seven men travels faster than an army. But then again why seven? Did he know that there was going to only be three KG or was he hoping to demand a trial by seven once he got there? Who knows; everything that was revealed about the TOJ thus far seems a bit odd.

Ned probably also believed Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped. At least, that's the worst possible scenario he could have expected. It's likely he wanted the situation to be handled with discretion. An army is not discreet, close and loyal men can shut up about the state in which Lyanna could have been found.

Also, Ned was in KL, right? He could have taken a ship to Dorne. Seven men are easier to transport than an army. He likely went there by sea (Starfall is on the shore) and they rode to the ToJ.

[Musashisamurai]

I think it was two reasons.

First, I think Ned did expect them to be at Dragonstone, or to accept a deal with ned wherein they go to Dragonstone under safe passage and Ned gets Lyanna. (I think he half expected them to abandon Lyanna or her possible child, for Viserys, the known heir who did not have all the associated baggage Jon had).

Next, I think in that case, Ned expected they would leave her at Starfall, who seems to have good relations with Winterfell. (Despite, Ned supposedly killing Arthur and his bastard with Ashara causing her death, the current lord of Starfall is named Ned. Now I know that short for Edric not Eddard-but you think if they hated Ned, they wouldn't nickname their lord that?).

Also, Dorne is a desert. An army going through that will likely die from the heat and lack of water, so in this case, Ned wants as few men as possible, so he only took his most trusted companions. If he took 100 men, Doran might have seen that as an invasion or the prelude to one, and reacted accordingly, if they didn't die from thirst first.

Its also possible that Ned might have thought Lyanna did fall in love with Rhaegar and theyv eloped together, in which case Ned would want men who wouldn't talk. Howland was Lyanna's friend, and I think Lord Dustin was too (didn't they ride together?). The others were all lords fiercely loyal to House Stark, and if Ned asked or ordered them to, they would lie to protect his sister's honor.

[Ygritte]

I love this question. It's been gone over many times in the years I've been here, and probably more before that, but it still is a huge gap in our understanding of what went on in those last days of Robert's Rebellion. The conclusion I draw from the observations about the numbers Ned takes to him to the tower is that Ned knew something of what he would face when he got there, and Ned needed both speed and secrecy to get to Lyanna. If it is just a question of speed, then why not 50 or 200 horsemen instead of seven? The answer, I think, is in who he takes not just the number of men. All the men - Martin Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Ser Mark Ryswell, Lord Dustin, and Howland Reed are bannermen of Ned. There are no men from the Stormlands, the Vale, the Riverlands, or anyplace else. They have sworn a oath of fealty to Ned as their lord. We know many of them have been through the rebellion at least since the Battle of the Bells (some are noted to be at his wedding.) Howland's relationship goes back at least to Harrenhal, and others could go back further as well. So, in the context of Ned's fight with Robert at Robert's coronation it is especially of interest that only Ned's bannermen go with him. I draw the conclusion that Ned doesn't want Robert to know what he finds at the tower, and he is taking measures to prevent this from happening. In addition, Ned is going into Dorne and Dorne is still an active enemy of the rebellion. Remember the stories we get of the Red Viper trying to rally people to avenge Elia and her children and Tywin's remarks about how it isn't until Jon Arryn travels to Sunspear that they get any assurances of peace with Dorne. So, secrecy is paramount in both getting into Dorne without invading Dorne with a hostile force and prolonging the war, and in stopping Robert from having independent information about what Ned finds at the tower.

As to why Ned fears letting Robert know what he finds, I think the answer is simple: He knows his sister went willingly with Rhaegar, had at least strong attractions to the Prince, had none of those feelings for Robert, and knows that there could be a child from Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship. Robert deludes himself about Lyanna, but what would he do to her if she came back to him and tells him she loved Rhaegar and wants nothing to do with being Robert's wife? If she has Rhaegar's child, legitimate or not, what would Robert do to her child? Ned can't know the answers to this after seeing what his response is to the brutal murders of Elia and her children. He can't take the chance Robert finds out the truth. So the secrecy.

Now, a interesting question intertwined with this is just how and when does Ned find out where Lyanna is? Quite a few years ago I compiled a list of the various likely possibilities depending on when he finds out and posted it in one of the very early R+L=J threads, but that was just after A Feast for Crows came out and new information needs to be added. However, I agree with Ygritte, that my favorite candidate still is Ashara Dayne for the how, and during the surrender of besieging forces at Storm's End as the most likely when of the matter. I think Ashara likely is important in the selection of the tower of joy for Rhaegar's and Lyanna's refuge and for it's supply of goods and information. I think Ashara probably sounds out Ned on what his plans are for Lyanna after he finds her and once she is assured that Ned isn't just going to turn her or the others at the tower over to Robert's judgement, she lets him know where Lyanna is and that the Kingsguard trio are with her. Ned takes a number of men he thinks can handle the worst possible situation (he is barely right) and heads off to the tower.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Thanks for bringing back up a interesting topic.

Yeah, you bring up something we don't talk about a lot, since we have the benefit of hindsight. There was a distinct possibility Ned would have been bringing back, not a body and a baby, but a living Lyanna, possibly heavily pregnant, who probably would not have wanted to be "returned" to Robert, and the situation would have required even more finessing.

I really love Ashara as the informant, as it neatly ties up her suicide for me too; she didn't kill herself because of her lost lover or baby, but because she felt guilt for inadvertently causing Arthur's death. (Of course, there's always the possibility she's not dead, having either faked the suicide or survived the attempt, but that's another story.)

[Griffin's Roost]

possibly to get there faster but there is still info we do not know. HR is going to give the final few pieces of the puzzle.

[Hank of House Hutton]

I love this question. It's been gone over many times in the years I've been here, and probably more before that, but it still is a huge gap in our understanding of what went on in those last days of Robert's Rebellion. The conclusion I draw from the observations about the numbers Ned takes to him to the tower is that Ned knew something of what he would face when he got there, and Ned needed both speed and secrecy to get to Lyanna. If it is just a question of speed, then why not 50 or 200 horsemen instead of seven? The answer, I think, is in who he takes not just the number of men. All the men - Martin Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Ser Mark Ryswell, Lord Dustin, and Howland Reed are bannermen of Ned. There are no men from the Stormlands, the Vale, the Riverlands, or anyplace else. They have sworn a oath of fealty to Ned as their lord. We know many of them have been through the rebellion at least since the Battle of the Bells (some are noted to be at his wedding.) Howland's relationship goes back at least to Harrenhal, and others could go back further as well. So, in the context of Ned's fight with Robert at Robert's coronation it is especially of interest that only Ned's bannermen go with him. I draw the conclusion that Ned doesn't want Robert to know what he finds at the tower, and he is taking measures to prevent this from happening. In addition, Ned is going into Dorne and Dorne is still an active enemy of the rebellion. Remember the stories we get of the Red Viper trying to rally people to avenge Elia and her children and Tywin's remarks about how it isn't until Jon Arryn travels to Sunspear that they get any assurances of peace with Dorne. So, secrecy is paramount in both getting into Dorne without invading Dorne with a hostile force and prolonging the war, and in stopping Robert from having independent information about what Ned finds at the tower.

As to why Ned fears letting Robert know what he finds, I think the answer is simple: He knows his sister went willingly with Rhaegar, had at least strong attractions to the Prince, had none of those feelings for Robert, and knows that there could be a child from Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship. Robert deludes himself about Lyanna, but what would he do to her if she came back to him and tells him she loved Rhaegar and wants nothing to do with being Robert's wife? If she has Rhaegar's child, legitimate or not, what would Robert do to her child? Ned can't know the answers to this after seeing what his response is to the brutal murders of Elia and her children. He can't take the chance Robert finds out the truth. So the secrecy.

Now, a interesting question intertwined with this is just how and when does Ned find out where Lyanna is? Quite a few years ago I compiled a list of the various likely possibilities depending on when he finds out and posted it in one of the very early R+L=J threads, but that was just after A Feast for Crows came out and new information needs to be added. However, I agree with Ygritte, that my favorite candidate still is Ashara Dayne for the how, and during the surrender of besieging forces at Storm's End as the most likely when of the matter. I think Ashara likely is important in the selection of the tower of joy for Rhaegar's and Lyanna's refuge and for it's supply of goods and information. I think Ashara probably sounds out Ned on what his plans are for Lyanna after he finds her and once she is assured that Ned isn't just going to turn her or the others at the tower over to Robert's judgement, she lets him know where Lyanna is and that the Kingsguard trio are with her. Ned takes a number of men he thinks can handle the worst possible situation (he is barely right) and heads off to the tower.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Thanks for bringing back up a interesting topic.

yeah this is pretty much how i feel. Ned knew or at least had a good feeling that Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together. When the tourney of Harrenhall is talked about, they say how Lyanna has "wolf's blood" and is wild and cant be contained. And how Rhaegar gave her the crown of blue winter roses as the queen of love and beauty. So i think Ned knows that she went willingly with him.

i think ashara dayne as the informant makes sense too. Also at the tourney of Harrenhall, Ser Barriston Selmy says how Ned wanted to dance with Ashara but was too nervous to dance. Ned and Ashara could have fallen for each other there. Ned wasnt betrothed to Catelyn yet, as his brother Brandon was, so he was basically a young single man at a tourney.

my belief is that Ashara came to hear of where Lyanna was AND that she was pregnant from her brother Arthur Dayne. Starfall, the Dayne home, is only a few days ride from the ToJ, and if Lyanna's pregnant with only Kings Guard there...they are going to need help to deliver the baby (esp if Rhaegar was able to convince them that Lyanna's kid was going to be the 3rd head of the dragon and is the child to fulfill the prophecy).

If Arthur Dayne gets a wetnurse from Ashara in Starfall, it could be possible she told Ned about Lyanna's whereabouts.

And then if Ned suspects they ran off together and Lyanna is pregnant...Ned's going to want to keep that as quite as possible knowing how Robert would react to that and knowing how Robert was killing every Targ child.