Rhaegar is a bad person

[Wardar]

Agree that we shouldn't make a final judgement about Rhaegar until we have all the facts about him.

I like this! J

Too bad a lot of the people that go nuts over criticism towards Rhaegar tend to think that THEY have all the facts though.

[WSmith84]

I hate him so much.

Can I ask why? Should he just have murdered the two men who he viewed as sons?

[Destroyer of Nations]

You can say it's bullshit, and you'd be wrong. Yandel, who has no reason to be in favor of the Targs and is suggested to be biased towards the Lannister/Baratheon regime, says the casus belli is Aerys II's actions and Jon Arryn's decision. Jon Arryn started the war.

"Many now agree that the true start of Robert's Rebellion began with Lord Arryn's refusal and courageous calling of his banners in the defense of justice."

-TWOIAF.

Let me put it differently. His actions with Lyanna was the first and largest step in the souring of some of the highlords towards the Targaryen dynasty. That souring eventually led to the Rebellion.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It's not like he left his wife and children by the side of the road or anything like that . They were in the Red Keep surrounded by Kingsguard, Gold Cloaks and protected by the walls of Kings Landing and the armies of the Iron Throne .

I don't think that it matters. The fact that he abandoned them in a castle doesn't mean that he didn't abandoned them not caring about them for a year and not caring them for their security. He left them in DS in the mercy of his paranoid father who took them from DS and moved them to KL in order to use them as a threat.

[WSmith84]

I'd also argue that leaving Elia and the kids in KL with Rhaegar's insane father, rather than sending them to Dorne where they would be safer, was not a particularly nice or smart move.

[The Wolves]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Rhaegar was kinda right.

I mean if he and Lyanna are Jon's parents and Jon is AA/The last Hero or whatever and he actively made sure Jon was conceived and than save mankind of course with myDany's help wouldn't that be ironic and funny lol.

I need this to happen for the laughs.

Not that this would absolve Rhaegar in his part he played in fecking up the kingdom.

[Frey family reunion]

While I agree with the sentiment, my guess is that the truth is a tad more complicated. I think Robert's Rebellion was well on its way, but I think Rhaegar's actions at Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance (whether or not the two are actually related) were distorted by the Citadel to get the war started.

My guess is the interesting array of marriage alliances made between House Baratheon, Tully, and Stark, were no doubt orchestrated not only by Jon Arryn, but by the Maesters at Storm's End (Cressen), Riverrun (probably Luwin), and Winterfell (Walys). Walys was said to be the son of an Archmaester at the Citadel (probably Walgrave) and his HIghtower mistress. Thus implicating both House Hightower and at least some in the Citadel.

The marriage alliances are probably created for a reason, and my guess is they were probably created for an alliance to rid Westeros of House Targaryen. So at some point a spark is needed. Rhaegar's "crowning" of Lyanna at Harrenhal, and her subsequent disappearance was the spark that was seized upon by the Maesters. At some point someone whispers in Brandon's ear that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Someone with enough credibility that Brandon believes it and charges towards King's Landing to threaten Rhaegar. My guess is that person was Walys. The rest as they say is history.

So whether or not Rhaegar was responsible for Lyanna's abduction, he definitely got the blame, and this was enough to get the ball rolling to Aerys, who was more than happy to overreact to the situation.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Considering how cuckoo-for-coco-puffs Aerys II was, a war to overthrow him was inevitable if he wasn't deposed/assassinated.

Not really. His insanity was very much localized. As he very rarely left the Red Keep and was surrounded by flatterers his insanity could have been reigned in with a competent Hand. The one time he went ballistic was to another Crownland House while he still maintained the loyalty of the other Crownland Lords (Velaryon. Chelsted and Staunton were all on his small council).

Outside of Kings Landing he didnt really have much influence. There were probably rumours but nothing that bothered the Great Lords.

Had Tywin still been Hand I'm not sure that Brandon would have gotten into the Red Keep to make those kind of threats, or Tywins own reputation would have not made Brandon act so rash. Merryweather was just not up to the job.

[LordStoneheart]

Let me put it differently. His actions with Lyanna was the first and largest step in the souring of some of the highlords towards the Targaryen dynasty. That souring eventually led to the Rebellion.

But not the only step. What happens if Brandon does not go to KL? What happens if him and Rickard take a more wary approach to the king they know is unstable? What happens if Brandon chooses his words more carefully instead of telling the crown prince to come out and die? And what happens if Jon Arryn chose his king over his wards and did kill Robert and Ned? Would the rebellion have still happened because of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

[WSmith84]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Rhaegar was kinda right.

I mean if he and Lyanna are Jon's parents and Jon is AA/The last Hero or whatever and he actively made sure Jon was conceived and than save mankind of course with myDany's help wouldn't that be ironic and funny lol.

I need this to happen for the laughs.

Not that this would absolve Rhaegar in his part he played in fecking up the kingdom.

I suppose it depends really. Some questions have to be answered:

- Was Jon Snow definitely necessary to avoid the annihilation of everyone in Westeros?

- Did his mother need to be a Stark?

- Was there no way Rhaegar could have gotten a child from Lyanna without disappearing and leaving the fallout in the hands of his mad father?

- Was there no way to remove Aerys from power before Rhaegar got himself a Stark-Targ baby?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I like this! J

Too bad a lot of the people that go nuts over criticism towards Rhaegar tend to think that THEY have all the facts though.

You can say that about any non POV character though, yet we all judge them on the information we have at hand. I'm not sure why Rhaegar should get special dispensation for his idiocy.

[LordStoneheart]

I don't think that it matters. The fact that he abandoned them in a castle doesn't mean that he didn't abandoned them not caring about them for a year and not caring them for their security. He left them in DS in the mercy of his paranoid father who took them from DS and moved them to KL in order to use them as a threat.

I'd also argue that leaving Elia and the kids in KL with Rhaegar's insane father, rather than sending them to Dorne where they would be safer, was not a particularly nice or smart move.

Dragonstone is a formidable castle that probably would not have fallen easily had Aerys tried to force them to King's Landing. It wasn't just Elia & the kids alone in the big castle. There was most likely a garrison and people who would have defended the royal family.

[The Wolves]

Can I ask why? Should he just have murdered the two men who he viewed as sons?

Him rebelling against the Targs is not something I hold against him much. But dismissing Elia and the Targ children deaths, rewarding Tywin for killing them by having Robert marry Cersei, proclaiming Robert King etc.

[Rippounet]

Unless he abducted her for political reasons.

[Blackfish Tully]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Rhaegar was kinda right.

I mean if he and Lyanna are Jon's parents and Jon is AA/The last Hero or whatever and he actively made sure Jon was conceived and than save mankind of course with myDany's help wouldn't that be ironic and funny lol.

I need this to happen for the laughs.

Not that this would absolve Rhaegar in his part he played in fecking up the kingdom.

Actually it would absolve him. Saving mankind would be worth the risk Rhasegar made. The only way that Rhaegar could guarantee that he and Lyanna would concieve a child is if he took her when he could . Any other other plan would have less of chance of working . The end result was worth the risk if Jon's saves the world.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Ah Rhaegar. The sliver prince. Even a decade and a half later, Jon Connington and Cersei Lannisters are still swooning over his good looks.

It's do bad that underneath those good looks is a truly bad person. Not just flawed, not just imperfect (though he is both); outright bad by any measure.

Here's why. During the Tourney of Harrenhal, Rhaegar showed interest in young Lyanna Stark. He declared her his queen of love and beauty, then afterwards she disappeared without trace. Brandon connected two and two, deducing that she was kidnapped and that Rhaegar was raping her. Brandon and his father were both burned alive when the former demanded that Rhaegar answer for his actions, so as a result Eddard and Robert revolted against the Mad King.

"But Lyanna went willingly! It's like Romeo and Juliet!" some of you might be saying. While I can not bring myself to believe this theory, the fact of the matter is that even if it was true Rhaegar would still be a scumbag. He is already married to Elia Martell, a woman who is by all accounts kind and who by the way is the mother of Rhargar's first two children. In crowning Lyanna at the tourney, he told the world that he could not give a shit about his wife. Then, when Robert and Eddard reasonably get pissed and march to war, Rhaegar sends three kingsguards to protect his prisoner (or lover, if you follow THAT theory). Guess how many people he charged with guarding his wife and two children? Zero. This is him outright saying that he does not in the slightest value the lives of his wife and his children.

In summary, Rhaegar started a devastating war, treated his wife and first two children inexcusably horribly, left them to die, and probably raped an underage girl. Not what I would call a hero.

If you take everything we know about Rhaegar from all of the accounts in the books (minus the biased opinion of Robert), they are overwhelmingly positive.

Even Ned, the brother of the supposed "kidnapped" Lyanna has nothing bad to say about him.

It is pretty much assumed that Lyanna was TKotLT at this point. We know that Aerys, being the paranoid that he was was sure that the mystery knight was a threat and sent Rhaegar to find him and bring him to the King.

This is where most people assume that Rhaegar met and was attracted to/ fell in love with Lyanna, causing him to present her with the Blue Winter Roses after the tournament.

It is also assumed that the whole reason for the tournament at Harrenhall was a thinly veiled attempt by Rhaegar to meet with the major Lords that may or may not have been building an alliance against Aerys (the marriages between the Houses Aryn, Stark, Baratheon & Tully). When Aerys showed up those plans fell apart.

But we can take from that attempted meeting that Rhaegar realized there was something brewing between the Great Lords and Aerys, and also that Aerys was aware of it because he left the Red Keep for the first time in years to keep an eye on Rhaegar and the Great Lords.

So what do we then know about Rhaegar so far?

This was a man that was gripped by the prophecy of TPwwP, originally thinking it would be him then later his son.

He was convinced that he needed 3 children and that his wife could never have the third child.

He felt an attraction/ love for Lyanna

He was aware there was a growing rift between House Stark and Aerys

He knew Aerys was looking for TKotLT, who Aerys thought was a threat

By all accounts Rhaegar was a good man, who was intelligent and made plans (as evidenced by the tournament)

So this is what I think happened.

Varys (or some other Aerys man) found out Lyanna was TKotLT, and was moving to arrest her/ kill her

Rhaegar wanted to save her. Both through his attraction for her/ want of a 3rd child BUT ALSO because he knew what could happen between House Stark and Aerys if Lyanna was killed

Rhaegar knows that Aerys if demands Lyanna, the Starks would rather call the banners then turn her over. So Rhaegar takes her to keep Aerys from getting her. Thats is why he hid her from Aerys as well as the Starks. He was trying to prevent a war AS WELL AS running off with his love.

Now Rhaegar did not count of Brandon being a hot head and going to Aerys and demanding Lyanna, maybe he thought he would be able to talk to the Starks after a little bit and calm everyone down. Unfortunately he didn't get that chance before Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon and Jon Aryn called the banners.

[LordStoneheart]

You can say that about any non POV character though, yet we all judge them on the information we have at hand. I'm not sure why Rhaegar should get special dispensation for his idiocy.

Because literally the only POVs we have that knew him personally are Jaime, Cersei, Jon Connington, and Barristan. Ned is iffy, but his POV is different, and we all know why. GRRM can't exactly lay out the full truth of the rebellion without spoiling Jon's parentage, so we really have no reliable information of Rhaegar's motivations and actions.

[Destroyer of Nations]

A few things:

1. You say he probably raped an underage girl. Couple of issues with that. If she flowered, unpleasant as we may find it, she wasn't underage and considering she more than likely bore him a child, evidence would suggest she was a woman by the standards of the time. So cheap rhetoric like that gets you no where.

It is still debatable if they were in love, or if he took of with her forcefully, we get both sides, and you can choose which you prefer, but it isn't how your making it out.

2. I would question your measure of bad. If we take a character like Ramsey for example as a margin for 'bad/evil', his instincts and urges lead him to hunt girls through forests, then rape them and kill them. He is clearly a sexual deviant in general,. but he also is evil by the standards of the time, for example forcing Donella Hornwood to marry him at sword point, raping her to consumate the marraige and then starving her to death to steal her lands.

So as an example of 'evil' in the world of Westeros Ramsey really fits that bill. Now compare Raegar to that and you run into some problems because nothing your advancing about him comes close to that kind of behaviour.

At worst, he kidnapped and raped Lyanna due to a prophesy, but that is highly conjectural, and doesn't fit in with what we know about both characters. So in reality, what actions are you putting on par with someone like Ramsey that you can actually prove?

3. His actions may have lead to war, but they weren't the sole reason, and his father the 'mad' king should take the lionshare of responsibility. By that time the realm frankly had, had enough of the guy, and his actions in response to the Rhaegar situation was the straw that broke the camels back. Rhaegar didn't order the Starks burned with wildfire, Aery's did.

4. Polygamy was quite normal for Targyerian Kings so there is nothing really breaking with the traditions of his world in taking Lyanna as a wife. And if indeed he took her only as a mistress and fathered a bastard (although unlikely a scenerio as that would be), that would be in keeping with a huge amount of Lords at that time.

Overall I think you would need to present a better argument, because as it stands you haven't made a very good case for what you are saying so far,

1. Agree with this. She was by all accounts a woman according to Westerosi standards. We don't know enough about whether or not it was consensual or not. I still think it wasn't this grand love story between those two but I'll withhold judgement for now about whether or not he raped her.

I agree that Rhaegar was not evil. Stupid? Yes. Evil? No.

His actions regarding Lyanna fanned up the flames, his father just happened to make it worse. Rhaegar should take a large part of the blame.

Don't agree with this. She was (to my disgust) still technically her father's property, it was not up to her to decide and certainly not up to Rhaegar. He never should have taken her without her father's permission. Also, polygamy hadn't been practiced since the dragons died out. They could not threaten the faith and the highlords with their dragons anymore. The faith does not allow for polygamous marriage and the faith of seven is the most dominant religion in the seven kingdoms. Rhaegar has nothing to back up his want for polygamous marriage.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Dragonstone is a formidable castle that probably would not have fallen easily had Aerys tried to force them to King's Landing. It wasn't just Elia & the kids alone in the big castle. There was most likely a garrison and people who would have defended the royal family.

Then why and how exactly Aerys was capable to take them as hostages?

Sorry but from what you are saying I see that you actually say that since they were living in luxury they were not abandoned.

[Wardar]

You can say that about any non POV character though, yet we all judge them on the information we have at hand. I'm not sure why Rhaegar should get special dispensation for his idiocy.

Not sure if you got my point right here…

What I was trying to say is that defenders of Rhaegar tend to react to people that judge based on little info while their own arguments are based on “facts” that they don’t have either (he was a good man, he KNEW he was right, he saved the world etc.)

I tend to hate the man, based on the information we have at hand. But still. The main event in his life that people tend to discuss is him leaving with Lyanna. And that we know very little about, unfortunately. It is also a big challenge that very few characters in the book know anything either (Benjen maybe?)