Bloodraven's Logic and Whitewalls (The Mystery Knight)

[DMC]

On a recent flight I decided to bring along The Mystery Knight to read, and thanks to the scourge that is modern air travel I managed to finish it. Thus, I got to the point that's always bothered me, where Bloodraven states he intends to destroy Whitewalls and salt the earth because he does not wish Whitewalls to become 'another monument to the Black Dragon' akin to the pilgrimages people made to the Redgrass Field. Granted, this is VERY minor, but doesn't make sense to me for a number of reasons.

First, so in an effort to avoid making the site of the Second Blackfyre Rebellion like the Redgrass Field you revert a castle to...a field. Second, relatedly, doesn't destroying the castle effectively call more attention to a 'rebellion' that was otherwise quelled before it even started? Third, Whitewalls sounds like a really fucking cool (and expensive) stronghold. And choicely located. It would seem more prudent to use it as a carrot for loyal service in the future. This is one thing Tywin seemed to understand and greatly aided him in winning the WoFK. Fourth, again, Whitewalls sounds awesome! Don't destroy it you bitter old cyclops!

Ok, obviously I've exhausted all my objections. I suppose it serves to demonstrate BR's paranoia and preoccupation with the Blackfyres (which he, as Maynard Plumm, tacitly admits to earlier in TMK). And obviously it's a rather trivial point. But still, for whatever reason, it grinds my gears. Just a waste of all those stones quarried from the Vale and weirwood trunks... *single tear runs down my face Crying Indian style*

[Red Raven]

Makes sense to me.

Not much different than what Tywin did to the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Tywin sealed off the entrances of Castamere and had the castle filled with water, Tarbeck Hall was collapsed, so two destroyed castles and everyone in both households killed. At least Bloodraven cleaned up the mess and let Lord Butterwell escape with his life and a small part of his wealth.

[Good Guy Garlan]

^ Agreed. If the place was going to become a monument/remainder of the Blackfyres anyway, an empty field is much less imposing than a super awesome, one-of-it's-kind castle.

[DMC]

Yeah it's certainly much more merciful than Tywin with the Reynes and Tarbecks - that's not my problem. I just think it's counter-productive if the intent is to make people forget a 'rebellion' that never truly commenced anyway and unnecessarily wasteful.

[DMC]

^ Agreed. If the place was going to become a monument/remainder of the Blackfyres anyway, an empty field is much less imposing than a super awesome, one-of-it's-kind castle.

I don't know. I'd think 'that's the castle where Daemon II Blackfyre attempted to forge his rebellion, but now belongs to House _____' would fade away quicker than 'that's where Whitewalls used to be, until Bloodraven razed it to the ground because...' (And unless the Blackfyres were ultimately successful, it was going to fade away as a memorial anyway). Guess that's just me though.

[Daendrew]

That was an extremely important line. Stay tuned. You have a good eye.

The Mystery Knight holds many explosive secrets that will change the whole series.

[CJ McLannister]

Bloodraven was not interested in effectively running the kingdom. If he had to chose between doing what's best for the realm and doing something petty to spite his bastard half-brothers, he'd do the latter.

At least at that point in his life.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I don't know. I'd think 'that's the castle where Daemon II Blackfyre attempted to forge his rebellion, but now belongs to House _____' would fade away quicker than 'that's where Whitewalls used to be, until Bloodraven razed it to the ground because...' (And unless the Blackfyres were ultimately successful, it was going to fade away as a memorial anyway). Guess that's just me though.

Harrenhal still stands, and people remember its history. If it had been completely leveled, I doubt people would consider an empty field to bear any significance. I think you're undermining how expansive Daemon II's planned rebellion was. The smallfolk wouldn't remember, because they had no knowledge of it. But all the lords and ladies who showed up -- some of whom were very powerful -- were there to plot a rebellion and stood to gain the support of Bittersteel and other Blackfyre loyalists. The rebellion never led to bloodshed, but it was still significant as a signal to other Blackfyre supporters that many were still able and willing to overthrow the Targaryens.

[Kienn]

Whitewalls was an insult to the Old Gods due to the weirwood used.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Personally, I'd have auctioned off the lordship to the highest bidder, but hey I'm a capitalist.

[RumHam]

Whitewalls was an insult to the Old Gods due to the weirwood used.

Since Bloodraven is ok with carving weirwood to make his bow and arrows I doubt he'd be offended by the use of weirwood in construction.

[CJ McLannister]

Since Bloodraven is ok with carving weirwood to make his bow and arrows I doubt he'd be offended by the use of weirwood in construction.

You don't have to chop down the tree to make arrows.

[DMC]

Harrenhal still stands, and people remember its history. If it had been completely leveled, I doubt people would consider an empty field to bear any significance. I think you're undermining how expansive Daemon II's planned rebellion was. The smallfolk wouldn't remember, because they had no knowledge of it. But all the lords and ladies who showed up -- some of whom were very powerful -- were there to plot a rebellion and stood to gain the support of Bittersteel and other Blackfyre loyalists. The rebellion never led to bloodshed, but it was still significant as a signal to other Blackfyre supporters that many were still able and willing to overthrow the Targaryens.

Well, if the objective is to provide warning to the other lords and ladies, I'd think you execute Butterwell.

Personally, I'd have auctioned off the lordship to the highest bidder, but hey I'm a capitalist.

Agreed.

[TreeFaces]

I took it more as a symbolic way to dismantle the rebellion by actually dismantling Whitewalls and salting the earth so it may never grow/arise again. BR knows his shit. The Mystery Knight is such a fun read.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

And obviously it's a rather trivial point. But still, for whatever reason, it grinds my gears. Just a waste of all those stones quarried from the Vale and weirwood trunks... *single tear runs down my face Crying Indian style*

Oh,if anything Bloodravenis a pragmatist,I bet all that pretty stone and those beams got sold and probably grace some neardy keeps.He might be ruthless,but if anything he recycles ;)

My question is what happened to the extended lands of the Butterwells?Who holds them now?I have a guess but I can't find textual proof so far.

Edit:My guess is wrong,they held it during the Blackwood rebellion,not them.

[AerionBrightflameII]

I really like Bloodraven, he seems like such a pragmatist.

He has an incredible hatred of the Blackfyres and his half brother, so i assume he took this oportunity as a huge F YOU to them.

Also i think his logic is that if there is nothing left to see, nobody will come to look.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Well, if the objective is to provide warning to the other lords and ladies, I'd think you execute Butterwell.

And make a martyr of him?

[Red Raven]

I really like Bloodraven, he seems like such a pragmatist.

He has an incredible hatred of the Blackfyres and his half brother, so i assume he took this oportunity as a huge F YOU to them.

Also i think his logic is that if there is nothing left to see, nobody will come to look.

This too. If Butterwall had managed to cobble together some wealth and an army and tried to take his lands back, there was no castle for him to come back to. Just an empty field that can't grow anything. Worthless.

Bloodraven knew what he was doing.

[Alaynsa Starne]

This too. If Butterwall had managed to cobble together some wealth and an army and tried to take his lands back, there was no castle for him to come back to. Just an empty field that can't grow anything. Worthless.

Bloodraven knew what he was doing.

Right. Take away everything a man is fighting for, and he loses the will to continue fighting.

As a side note that's mostly unrelated to this thread, why are there so many people who seem to think BR either controls everything that happens in Westeros or is someone more sinister than even Ramsay Bolton?

[Connartist92]

On a recent flight I decided to bring along The Mystery Knight to read, and thanks to the scourge that is modern air travel I managed to finish it.  Thus, I got to the point that's always bothered me, where Bloodraven states he intends to destroy Whitewalls and salt the earth because he does not wish Whitewalls to become 'another monument to the Black Dragon' akin to the pilgrimages people made to the Redgrass Field.  Granted, this is VERY minor, but doesn't make sense to me for a number of reasons.

 

First, so in an effort to avoid making the site of the Second Blackfyre Rebellion like the Redgrass Field you revert a castle to...a field.  Second, relatedly, doesn't destroying the castle effectively call more attention to a 'rebellion' that was otherwise quelled before it even started?  Third, Whitewalls sounds like a really fucking cool (and expensive) stronghold.  And choicely located.  It would seem more prudent to use it as a carrot for loyal service in the future.  This is one thing Tywin seemed to understand and greatly aided him in winning the WoFK.  Fourth, again, Whitewalls sounds awesome!  Don't destroy it you bitter old cyclops! 

 

Ok, obviously I've exhausted all my objections.  I suppose it serves to demonstrate BR's paranoia and preoccupation with the Blackfyres (which he, as Maynard Plumm, tacitly admits to earlier in TMK).  And obviously it's a rather trivial point.  But still, for whatever reason, it grinds my gears.  Just a waste of all those stones quarried from the Vale and weirwood trunks... *single tear runs down my face Crying Indian style*

 

I'm rereading The Mystery Knight right now and came across something interesting.

 

The night before the Tourney at Whitewalls, Dunk and Egg camp in a clearing of weirwood stumps.

 

"Before long the trees opened up, and they found themselves in what must once have been a weirwood grove. Only a ring of white stumps and a tangle of bone-pale roots remained to show where the trees had stood, when the children of the forest ruled in Westeros."

 

The next day when they arrive at Whitewalls for the feast, Dunk makes an observation about the castle.

 

"Whitewalls was almost new as castles went, having been raised a mere forty years ago by the grandsire of its present lord. ... Inside were floors and pillars of milky white marble veined with gold; the rafters overhead were carved from the bone-pale trunks of weirwoods. Dunk could not begin to imagine what all of that had cost."

 

What if Bloodraven wanted it torn down in part because of the use of weirwood to build it? Granted he has not yet become "one with the tree," but he does have "a thousand eyes, and one," so it's not a stretch to assume that he's mastered his warging/greenseeing abilities a lot more than Bran had without proper training. This would mean he had a general understanding that weirwoods were important to some extent, and even possibly see through them already.