TimJames Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Many call Theon a turncloak and a traitor for fighting against the Starks. But really, what choice did he have? He could have headed to Winterfell and, instead of attacking at night, warned Bran and swore his loyalty to the Starks. Then he would be fighting against his family in the service of his former captors, and everyone would call him a turncloak forever. He could have simply refused to fight against the Starks, taking no side in this fight. Then he would be known as a craven, and both sides would consider him a turncloak. Name one course of action Theon Greyjoy could have taken that wouldn't have resulted in him being despised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 He would have had a decent reputation if he had governed Winterfell with honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Name one course of action Theon Greyjoy could have taken that wouldn't have resulted in him being despised? Not going to Pyke in the first place? Then he wouldn't have been split. But I agree--once he'd gone "home," he was sunk. Would end up despised by one side or the other. He would have had a decent reputation if he had governed Winterfell with honor. Would this have been possible with his crew of ironborn? Not sure how he could have governed anything well with that lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 He doesn't have to side with his family. Did all the Florents go to Renly? His family despised him anyway so why not just stick with the Starks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Not going to Pyke in the first place? Then he wouldn't have been split. But I agree--once he'd gone "home," he was sunk. Would end up despised by one side or the other. Would this have been possible with his crew of ironborn? Not sure how he could have governed anything well with that lot. I think your right. As you said, how could he gain a decent reputation with the IB and still maintain one in the north? It doesn't make him stuck, though. He obviously realized and accepted that he couldn't live in both worlds. But, I think he was old enough to see the disfunction of his people's ways and still love them. He made the wrong choice, simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byfort of Corfe Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Remember it's Theon's own idea to capture Winterfell. He's disappointed when he gets home and no one seems to think all that much of him and Asha makes fun of him so he decides that he'll make a big splash with his raiding party and capture Winterfell and become Lord of the North. It's an "I'll show them" move. When Asha comes to Winterfell she points out what a stupid move it was. He should have cleared out then, actually if he really had any brains he would have realized that his force was too small and out of supporting distance from the rest of the IB. Maybe having to abandon the Starks and throw in with the IB could possibly be a Catch 22 but capturing Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon and the rest while he was there is strictly on Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I think your right. As you said, how could he gain a decent reputation with the IB and still maintain one in the north? It doesn't make him stuck, though. He obviously realized and accepted that he couldn't live in both worlds. But, I think he was old enough to see the disfunction of his people's ways and still love them. He made the wrong choice, simple as that.Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I think your right. As you said, how could he gain a decent reputation with the IB and still maintain one in the north? It doesn't make him stuck, though. He obviously realized and accepted that he couldn't live in both worlds. But, I think he was old enough to see the disfunction of his people's ways and still love them. He made the wrong choice, simple as that. He should have realized it, yes. He was sunk with one side or the other--had to choose. But Theon does a lot of romanticizing of the IB--those "conversations" with the captain's daughter on the way to Pyke--he sometimes seems to think that his father and the IB are just tougher versions of the Starks. Seemed completely unprepared for what happened on Pyke. Should he have realized right then that he couldn't have it both ways? Yes. Did he? He captured Winterfell and tried to rule it--tried to be both the IB raider and the good Stark ruler. Theon's been having a crisis of identity for a while--long before Reek. Not sure he ever really realized he'd have to choose--readers see it. The Starks see it. Theon's denial on that subject seems pretty intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilikethesebooks Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I doubt he would have been shamed if he came back and continued to assist the North over the IB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 In the North and Riverlands he's considered shit. No one else really cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 In the North and Riverlands he's considered shit. No one else really cares.Thanks Hal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Many call Theon a turncloak and a traitor for fighting against the Starks. But really, what choice did he have? He could have headed to Winterfell and, instead of attacking at night, warned Bran and swore his loyalty to the Starks. Then he would be fighting against his family in the service of his former captors, and everyone would call him a turncloak forever. He could have simply refused to fight against the Starks, taking no side in this fight. Then he would be known as a craven, and both sides would consider him a turncloak. Name one course of action Theon Greyjoy could have taken that wouldn't have resulted in him being despised? He didn't have to take Winterfell. Balon never ordered him that or planned it, Theon wanted to do it on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 ^I think it was the right thing to do, but does anyone even know that it was his idea outside of te IB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 ^I think it was the right thing to do, but does anyone even know that it was his idea outside of te IB?It was fucking stupid, so probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 It was fucking stupid, so probably. That's what he gets for living with the Starks so long.:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 In the North and Riverlands he's considered shit. No one else really cares. Stannis seems to have a very low opinion of him, based on the sample chapter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Stannis seems to have a very low opinion of him, based on the sample chapter True, but Stannis judges everyone by very high standards. Everyone, except himself. It would be better to look at the Small Council to get the general oppinion of Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 He should have realized it, yes. He was sunk with one side or the other--had to choose. But Theon does a lot of romanticizing of the IB--those "conversations" with the captain's daughter on the way to Pyke--he sometimes seems to think that his father and the IB are just tougher versions of the Starks. Seemed completely unprepared for what happened on Pyke. Should he have realized right then that he couldn't have it both ways? Yes. Did he? He captured Winterfell and tried to rule it--tried to be both the IB raider and the good Stark ruler. Theon's been having a crisis of identity for a while--long before Reek. Not sure he ever really realized he'd have to choose--readers see it. The Starks see it. Theon's denial on that subject seems pretty intense. I went back and read the relevent chapters when Theon went back to the Iron Isles. It seems the only crisis of Identity he has is not being as special to others as he believes/wants to be. I understand his assumption of being welcomed by family and respected as heir to Pike, but he really doesn't care about anyone or anything beyond gaining the prestige of power he so desperately believes he deserves. This self-absorption had to be engrained in him the first 10yrs of his life since it mirrors the disposition of the IB culture. His time in Winterfell (10-20yrs old) clearly taught him a more diplomatic view of ruling lands and dealing with conflict, but did little to tame his sense of entitlement. So to answer you question from a fresh look at Theon pre-fall-of-Winterfell, I don't think it much mattered to Theon which world he lived it or where he resided, as long as he was 'The King of the Castle' wherever he ruled. The sad thing is, he may have been a positive influence and good Lord of Iron Isles if he remained on the mainland until his father passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 True, but Stannis judges everyone by very high standards. Everyone, except himself. It would be better to look at the Small Council to get the general oppinion of Theon. The Small Council??? What on earth gives anyone in KL a proper perspective for assessing Theon Greyjoy?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 He's the heir apparent to Varys as the small councils resident eunuch Some day.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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