Jaime and Aerys

[Alexia]

With regards to Jaime's murder of King Aerys - am I the only poster who thinks that it was not only unjustified but also completely unnecessary for Jaime to kill Aerys?

Jaime had already killed Rossart, the Hand who was on his way to go light up the wildfire. Aerys was a mad old man who was a danger to absolutely no one when Jaime confronted him in the throne room and he was under Jaime's control. Moreover, his father's men were already in the castle for them to have caught him standing over Aerys' body.

I think it's part of Jaime's weak character - very Theonesque. Jaime should never have been the one to kill Aerys but he wanted to. He wanted to kill him for his madness, for how badly he treated Jaime, for what he did to Rhaella, and for ordering Jaime to kill his father. So he justified it by trying to say that he stopped Aerys from murdering the inhabitants of Kings Landing when he did nothing of the sort by killing Aerys; that was already accomplished by killing Rossart.

I also think that is why Jaime never told Ned Stark or anyone else about his so-called reasons for killing Aerys - he knows in his heart of hearts that the reason is bullshit, the plan to fire up the city died with Rossart, his father's men were already in the castle, and he killed Aerys for simple revenge and bloodlust.

[dolorouseddwasright]

Hmmm, and he even lies to himself in his POV, when he remembers the sack of Kings Landing. That is very like Theon with his ability to rationalize his actions and see himself as doing "good" no matter what he does.

Maybe Aerys could have served as a rallying point for royalist forces if Jaime hadn't killed him. Letting him live might have prolonged the war. He is the rightful king, after all. But Jaime didn't say that's why he did it. I think Jaime is very good at rationalizing the things he does. At least after the fact, before he does something he doesn't really think too much about it. Afterwards he comes up with a great excuse for why it needed to be done.

So, you view Jaime as once a sh*t always a sh*t?

[Alexia]

So, you view Jaime as once a sh*t always a sh*t?

Pretty much. As they say, a leopard can't change his spots. Jaime has been evil for so long that now, when he actually wants to do the right thing, he still unerringly manages to do wrong.

Re Aerys: Ned Stark's vanguard hit the city right after Tywin. If Tywin had let the man live (and that's a big if) his head was coming off the moment Ned Stark laid his hands on him. But then Ned would have killed him and Ned is not a Kingsguard sworn to protect him.

[Lord Slum]

You seem to actually hate Jaime. Your bias against Jaime is undoubtedly strong and without cause. Anyone without a bias would see that it's quite easy to kill Aerys and the rationalization wouldn't even matter because of all the wrong Aerys has done.

[SFDanny]

he knows in his heart of hearts that the reason is bullshit, the plan to fire up the city died with Rossart, his father's men were already in the castle, and he killed Aerys for simple revenge and bloodlust.

What makes you think this is the case? First, Rossart was not the only pyromancer working with Aerys on the plot. If anyone of them had survived and Aerys had given the order, the city goes up in flames. Both Belis and Garigus remain free for days after and could have followed through on Aerys's mad plan if Jaime doesn't hunt them down. You may or may not believe Jaime's stated motives, but I don't think you can say King's Landing was out of danger when Rossart died. The city isn't safe until all of Aerys's plotters are dead.

[Liadin]

I think the OP has a good point and it's something I was thinking about myself. Probably there are other pyromancers--heck, Aerys might have been able to set a nasty fire by himself--but what's stopping Jaime from simply overpowering him (the king was unarmed and getting on in years, wasn't he?) and waiting till Tywin's men show up? It didn't exactly take long.

But to be fair, civilians judging spur-of-the-moment decisions people make in wartime can be problematic. I for one have never been in a situation remotely like that, but I imagine you're not checking off a list of options in your head. You react instinctively, and one might argue it was partially Aerys's fault that Jaime's instincts tended toward the violent. On the other hand, Jaime probably did have some time to think it over, between killing Rossart and Aerys. Does anyone know how long before the actual killings he decided to do it, and how far apart the two were at the time? If memory serves, Rossart had just left Aerys's presence and was on the way to the wildfire, so probably not much.

I definitely think Aerys needed to be killed, though, and while Jaime wasn't the best person to do it (nor was that the best situation to do it in--killing someone who trusts you is always low), I don't really hold it against him. Pushing Bran is the one really unforgiveable thing he's done IMO. I think it's interesting that Aerys is the one who's constantly being discussed in the books--justifications, explanations and so forth--when I was convinced from the first mention of him in AGOT that killing him was a good call, whereas Bran.... Jaime doesn't even think about.

[Field of Asphodel]

Personally I think Jamie murdered Aerys. It wasn't justice or "for the good of the realm" - my impression was that Jamie more or less snapped; that anger, fear, and vengeance finally drove him to kill Aerys.

Ned Stark is famously icy, but personally I think there's something absurd about Jamie hating Stark for one judgmental look. It's so irrational, and when he claims to see Ned Stark's judgement in other character's eyes (Catelyn's, Brynden's), I can't help but wonder if this detail in his POV is totally reliable. And, honestly, considering his behavior afterward, seating himself on the Iron Throne with his sword red with Aery's blood and the cloak of the Kingsguard on his shoulders, laughing, jesting - I'm sorry, but was it really so judgmental of Stark to presume what he presumed? I don't think so, and I think I would have responded internally to Jamie in much the same way. I certainly did the first time I read that passage in AGoT.

That said, I actually empathize with 17 y.o. disillusioned Jamie of the Kingsguard more than any other incarnation of Jamie. He was so young. His king used him to hurt his family, abused him, traumatized him. So much of Jamie' psychology through this period - dissociation, delusion - reminds me of the psychology of a rape/trauma victim. I don't think that's an overstatement. No wonder he snapped, no wonder he murdered. He was a sworn brother of the Kingsguard, he had no business killing Aerys regardless of however much one could argue Aerys deserved it, but the context of his crime is important. In a modern context, I think he'd be charged with second degree murder, not first.

[Errant Bard]

Jaime should never have been the one to kill Aerys but he wanted to. He wanted to kill him for his madness, for how badly he treated Jaime, for what he did to Rhaella, and for ordering Jaime to kill his father. So he justified it by trying to say that he stopped Aerys from murdering the inhabitants of Kings Landing when he did nothing of the sort by killing Aerys; that was already accomplished by killing Rossart.

I'm not sure he ever justifies it with saying he saved King's Landing. The "saving KL" is more of a facet of the Jaime defense on the board than what Jaime himself says (and even then, it's often more of a morality argument: ie Aerys deserved to die for it). He says this:

My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding.

(ETA: He changes into his golden armour at this point, remember: he comes in the throne room and Aerys asks him whose blood is on his blade, and he answers: "Rossard's".)

"When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers. Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered me gold, and Garigus wept for mercy. Well, a sword's more merciful than fire, but I don't think Garigus much appreciated the kindness I showed him."

Elsewhere he tells us he switched to the golden armour before the deed, and that his father's men entered the throne room just in time to see him finish the King. Elsewhere still, we have him being snarky at Cat or Brienne about how they never made a choice between family and honour (though, in the end, Catelyn did, and Brienne is forced to). So I think the idea that his reason for killing Aerys is saving KL is wrong: he killed him because he chose between a madman and family, between Kinslayer and Kingslayer, and he understands the price: he does say that it is at the same time his shame and his glory.

The wildfire thing is merely a tipping point. It makes the decision all that easier: It was right to execute a murdered, rapist, and would-be genocidal maniac, promises extracted under different circumstances be damned. And of course, it was right to save King's Landing from blowing up. The Lannister men storming the throne room probably heard him say "Yippie Ki-Yay motherfucker" as his sword slit the guy's throat, too.

[Antonius Pius]

Elsewhere he tells us he switched to the golden armour before the deed, and that his father's men entered the throne room just in time to see him finish the King. Elsewhere still, we have him being snarky at Cat or Brienne about how they never made a choice between family and honour (though, in the end, Catelyn did, and Brienne is forced to). So I think the idea that his reason for killing Aerys is saving KL is wrong: he killed him because he chose between a madman and family, between Kinslayer and Kingslayer, and he understands the price: he does say that it is at the same time his shame and his glory.

Personally, I'm somewhere between you and Alxia on this topic. I sympathise with your explanation, but I think there's also a fair bit vengeance in Jaime's actions. Why else change to the golden armour? I think he wanted to pay Aerys back for betraying him. In his recollections of donning the white cloak, his finest hour, he gets short-changed by Aerys and is immediately sent back to King's Landing while a huge tourney is going on (was it the tourney at Harrenhal? Don't recall), robbing him of his glory and driving home the point that he was only chosen to fuck with Tywin ("He's mine now, not Tywins"). His dreams of glory were apparently all he lived for, and this slight by Aerys was cruel, to say the very least. I think he wanted to pay Aerys back for his mean trick, and also for the cruelties he witnessed as KG.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

I think it would be beyond lame for Jaime to "overpower" Aerys and wait for his father to kill him. It would be like if he gave Bran sword and "fought" him before throwing him out of the window, and then claim that he killed him in fair fight. It would be a way to both murder the king you swore to protect AND pathetically to try to keep your hands clean and avoid the scorn. You either fight and die saving Aerys or at least have honesty to kill him yourself.

Besides, I don't think you need an excuse to murder Aerys. You need excuse not to murder him.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

This is basically Jaime being himself. He's never been the type to let others do the dirty work for him. He could have easily stood back and let his Father's men kill Aerys but he's just not that type of person. He's almost Stark like in that regard. Very much a person would agree with "the one who passes the sentence should swing the sword". In his own odd way I think it was his honor which complied him to do the killing himself.

[Daemrion]

So I think the idea that his reason for killing Aerys is saving KL is wrong: he killed him because he chose between a madman and family, between Kinslayer and Kingslayer, and he understands the price: he does say that it is at the same time his shame and his glory.

But then why kill Belis and Garigus afterward if not to save people he needed to save.

[mormont]

With regards to Jaime's murder of King Aerys - am I the only poster who thinks that it was not only unjustified but also completely unnecessary for Jaime to kill Aerys?

Jaime had already killed Rossart, the Hand who was on his way to go light up the wildfire. Aerys was a mad old man who was a danger to absolutely no one when Jaime confronted him in the throne room and he was under Jaime's control.

Except that, as others have pointed out, the wildfire was still in place and two of Aerys' pyromancers were free. So there's an argument for killing Aerys to save the city, still.

Moreover, his father's men were already in the castle for them to have caught him standing over Aerys' body.

I don't think it's clear that Jaime knew this. However, I don't think it was simply the safety of the city that motivated Jaime.

I think it's part of Jaime's weak character - very Theonesque.

I'm sympathetic to the view that it is more Ned-esque, as Cersei's #1 Fan says. Jaime took it upon himself because he's not the type to let others do his dirty work. I think that in Jaime's case, this is as much an ego thing as to do with honour, though. But who can blame him? At the time he slew Aerys, he had been used as a pawn all his life in various ways by Tywin, Cersei, and Aerys. When he killed Aerys, he was escaping those bonds and seizing the initiative, arguably for the first time in his life.

And... as Robert said, someone had to kill Aerys. And whoever that was, it would have carried a certain amount of opprobrium. We know that. This way, Robert got to take his throne untainted by a kingslaying of his own.

Ned Stark is famously icy, but personally I think there's something absurd about Jamie hating Stark for one judgmental look. It's so irrational, and when he claims to see Ned Stark's judgement in other character's eyes (Catelyn's, Brynden's), I can't help but wonder if this detail in his POV is totally reliable.

I agree with this. Jaime is very conflicted about himself and his actions. He seems to me to have tried to take Tyrion's advice to Jon: to take what they call him and use it as armour. But it hasn't worked all that well for him.

[Datepalm]

But then why kill Belis and Garigus afterward if not to save people he needed to save.

And why not tell everyone about it? Why do it himself, in secret, and never reveal that Aerys had been planning on blowing up the city? I think its also a case of taking responsibility - he didn't want the excuse out there, but also of image, as he didn't want to be seen as the kind of guy who makes excuses. I agree with whoever said the really big stain on Jaime is Bran though, which he never even thinks about much less attempts to justify.

[A wilding]

The other point is that he tracked down and killed Belis and Garigus "days" later. Surely that was a big risk, either might have still destroyed the city before he caught them (possibly acting on some secret order of Aerys Jaime had missed), and when they had not done so after a few days were surely never going to do it. This means Jaime was not purely motivated by saving the city or he would have told Tywin and/or Ned of the danger and ensured the two were caught asap. Indeed he left the wildfire permanently in place - being as unstable as it is, it might have even gone off accidentally.

Which make it an interesting question as to why he killed Belis and Garigus at all. Out of some sense of justice?

[Alexia]

Except that, as others have pointed out, the wildfire was still in place and two of Aerys' pyromancers were free. So there's an argument for killing Aerys to save the city, still.

Not a bad point but in that case, wouldn't it be more important to search out the other two pyromancers than to kill a crazy old man, particularly when troops were storming the building and homing in on him? Jaime didn't even have to overpower him and turn him over - just make himself scarce. By, say, searching for the other two. Aerys was not in a position to give any orders to start the wildfire when storm troops are in the castle and his Hand was dead.

I agree with A Wilding's whole post...if they hadn't done it days later they never would, and if he truly thought the city was still in danger he would have told his father and a search would have been started. And they were still finding Aerys' wildfire 15 years later when Tyrion was Hand!

I think he did kill the other two out of a sense of justice - for all the death by burning that he had seen.

Jaime MUST have known troops were in the city, at least. He had come back to the castle from killing Rossart - he would have known the situation. Look at the guards during the Battle of the Blackwater; they are being sent back and forth to keep up-to-date on the battle.

[mormont]

Not a bad point but in that case, wouldn't it be more important to search out the other two pyromancers than to kill a crazy old man, particularly when troops were storming the building and homing in on him?

Not a strategy I can see as making sense. For one thing, it is Aerys' plan and it will happen on his order. And Aerys is right there, whereas the other two are not - there's no suggestion Jaime knows where they are at all. (I imagine this is the reason Jaime killed them 'days later' - he had to track them down, and he probably did it on his own.) Not only that, but Jaime has no way of knowing if there are others Aerys could order to set off the wildfire.

So killing Aerys then and there is the simplest, most immediate way of guaranteeing that the plan would be ended. And it's one that lies within Jaime's hands, literally - which is why it appeals to him more than leaving the job to others.

I agree with A Wilding's whole post...if they hadn't done it days later they never would, and if he truly thought the city was still in danger he would have told his father and a search would have been started. And they were still finding Aerys' wildfire 15 years later when Tyrion was Hand!

Jaime obviously couldn't remove the stuff himself. So the reason he left it was that he didn't want to tell anyone else of Aerys' plan. The key question is, why not? If you try to answer that question, I think you come to understand a lot about Jaime.

[Rockroi]

I fully support Jaime killing Aerys.

For starters, lets infuse some facts into the discussion. As others had said, Aerys was held up at Maegor’s Holdfast with the last lines of his defense. He was alone with Jaime when he gave him the order to start treating with Tywin and then kill him. Jaime changes into his armor, kills Roussart (I love how nobody has a problem with that – kill the guy taking the order, not the guy giving it). Jaime then goes to the throne room and kills Aerys.

Jaime had no idea where his father’s men are or how demoralized Aerys men were. It’s a little unfair to ascribe to Jaime omnipotence here. Further, Jaime kills Aerys, then walks up to the Throne and has a seat. He is sitting on the throne when his father’s men crash in. A while late, Ned rides into the throne room. We have no idea how much time has elapsed between Jaime killing Aerys and Tywin’s men storming in. Jaime says it was pretty fast, but a good argument to make was that Jaime was probably the least likely to be able to appreciate the time lag here. Its possible he was sitting there for a while before men came in.

My point is that Jaime had no idea how close his father’s men were so a reasonable person cannot be blamed for taking maters into his own hands. But it matters not at all.

Aerys Targaryen’s past sins – killing the Starks, demanding the death of two more Lords, throwing the realm into war –all seem like child’s play when you compare it to his desire to burn down the capital of the realm for no reason. Had Jaime stopped at Roussart OR had let Aerys fend for himself, who knows what the outcome would have been. But Jaime knew that he was now “in it” and allowing the Mad King to live was as irresponsible as trying to defend him. Killing Aerys was a rational action; Jaime did not “snap”.

Had Aerys lived, he provides several problems. First and foremost, he could effectuate a course of events that still emulates the city. Jaime would see to it that that did not happen, but the best way to do that is kill Aerys, Second, Aerys becomes a rallying cry of the loyalists. Remember- the Redwynes control the seas and the Tyrell’s have a massive army in the South. When you factor in the rage that Dorne would feel after discovering Elia was killed, you can easily conjur up a scenario where this would be a huge problem for everyone.

Third, Aerys deserved to die. Yes, one could argue that others should have made the decision, but that is a distinction without a difference. What were we going to wait for? Would Robert have allowed a trial? Jaime was the one who actually took the matter into his own hands. Jaime had every reason to turn his back and let Aeryus fend for himself, but that would have been a half-measure, and this was far too important to leave to chance.

Fourth, merely because Jaime was a KG does not mean he leaves common sense at the door. He knew what was going on. It would have been rank hypocrisy for Jaime to hide behind his White Cloak and say “I had to defend Aerys…” Instead, Jaime took the more rational option- kill Aertys, let others sort out the mess.

Fifth, I find Ned’s discomfort with Jaime for killing Aerys to be almost silly. That may not deserve high praise, but I think it does not deserve scorn either. As Robert Baratheon said so eloquently, SOMEBODY had to kill Aerys. If Ned wants to stay aloof in his Ice Tower, that’s his business, but killing Aerys was a sound decision.

[AquariumDrinker]

At least the man who passed the sentence swung the sword. :)

I'm not saying that he had the authority to pass the sentence. However, it was war and a ton of other people had died, why not the cause of the war.*

*Aerys took a bad situation with the "abduction" of Lyanna and turned into a much bigger problem with the execution of Brandon and Rickard. I'm not trying to derail this thread.

[Kimera757]

Isn't Values Dissonance wonderful? It's alright to kill your opponent's family (at least the grown members) but it's not alright to break an oath.

From a modern PoV, I believe Jaime did the right thing there. That doesn't make him a hero, though, since he frequently does the wrong thing. He's complicated and conflicted, which is reasonable, since in real-life it's pretty hard to button people into the hero's role or villain's role.

With regards to Jaime's murder of King Aerys - am I the only poster who thinks that it was not only unjustified but also completely unnecessary for Jaime to kill Aerys?

I think it was necessary and justified.

Jaime had already killed Rossart, the Hand who was on his way to go light up the wildfire.

The order could have been given again.

Aerys was a mad old man who was a danger to absolutely no one

Plenty of dictators are mad old men, but they command servants and warriors. An army's commander is dangerous, even if he's crippled, can't walk and only has one arm that's too weak to wield a sword.

when Jaime confronted him in the throne room and he was under Jaime's control.

Keeping a hostage is harder than killing someone, and since his father seemed to want to topple the Targaryen dynasty, killing Aerys first made sense.

Moreover, his father's men were already in the castle for them to have caught him standing over Aerys' body.

The timeline of events is unclear, and it hardly mattered. If the Lannisters got in there, and Aerys was still alive, they would have killed Aerys anyway. I don't see it being significantly more honorable to let someone else do the killing, even if he's a member of the Kingsguard. Jaime also prefers to do his own killing.

I think it's part of Jaime's weak character - very Theonesque. Jaime should never have been the one to kill Aerys but he wanted to. He wanted to kill him for his madness, for how badly he treated Jaime, for what he did to Rhaella, and for ordering Jaime to kill his father. So he justified it by trying to say that he stopped Aerys from murdering the inhabitants of Kings Landing when he did nothing of the sort by killing Aerys; that was already accomplished by killing Rossart.

Maybe that's the case. Too bad most people can't analyze their own motives clearly.

I also think that is why Jaime never told Ned Stark or anyone else about his so-called reasons for killing Aerys - he knows in his heart of hearts that the reason is bullshit, the plan to fire up the city died with Rossart, his father's men were already in the castle, and he killed Aerys for simple revenge and bloodlust.

He killed Aerys out of revenge for what he did to Rhaella? That's fine in my opinion. I have little problem with bad guys getting executed. I'm just glad we live in a day and age where proper trials (remember Tyrion's "trial") and DNA evidence exist.