Heresy 5

[Capon Breath]

I assumed the 'and worse' refered to having children by his daughters, giving the sons to the Others and raising the daughters to be his future sex slaves. A Demon King would seem less worse than that to me.

'cold smell', the old timers fear the White Cold as we see in AGOT prologue, so maybe there is something about Craster Dywen associates with that, something like the smell of snow in the air?

Could be, but wouldnt kinslayer & raper cover his sons & daughters? Theres still the "and worse" and that seemed to be liked to who he traded with...?

[Armstark]

I really like to thank all the Heretics for the great discussion! I read most of the threads and like the atmosphere here, the ideas floating around. Got me thinking.

If we consider the major overall conflict of ASOIAF Ice vs Fire It is remarkable that there has been peace for so long. The WW have not been seen for thousands of years and the children have made themselves rare. So the last time there was a big battle between Ice and Fire they must have come to some kind of stable situation, where everybody was content with their positions. Or utterly defeated of course. With all the discussed timeline issues we dont really know when the last battle took place but it we can clearly see what the stable situation was: the WW and COF north of the Wall, Andals south of the neck and the First Men (Starks) in between. This lead me to believe that the important role of the Starks is to act as some kind buffer between the two worlds The Starks must stop the Andals/Valyrians or else the "Others" feel threatend. Thats why it is important that there must always be a Stark at Winterfell. I believe the peace solution was something like this: the Others stay north of the Wall and the Nights Watch enforces that in turn the Andals stay south of the neck with the Starks watching over that.

I dont know exactly when the fist time was an Other was sighted again, but I think if we look at the whole Craster buisiness we can assume that they are around for maybe 20 years? Whats the oldest daughter Craster had? I dont know if the timelines fit, but I think what lead to the resurgence of the Others was actually the marriage between Ned/Catelyn because it broke the agreement. Now the Starks are 'infiltrated' by Andals and the 'Others' know that Fire is coming for them again. Interesting that the one person trying to stop that marriage is actually Littlefinger, maybe he has more knowledge than we give him credit for? He has that Bravos/FacelessMen ties. In the TV Show it seemed as that the major players/enemies are Varys and Littlefinger. Varys sure is playing the fire game, maybe Littlefinger is working for the other side?

so what do you guys think? crackpot? good ideas?

[Elaena Targaryen]

Boy have you guys been busy, very good read everyone.

@redriver, If you want science, then all that Iron in the Crypt's etc should have corroded ages ago, also Iron is very common/cheap metal, this why it is mentioned every where, including in the ice cells on the wall.

---

Has the reeds oath was discussed here already?

Question, even if the iron sword corroded ages ago wouldn't the iron itself still be there, you know maybe absorbed in the stone?

Also, I find the Reed's oath very interesting. We discussed it some, with very interesting ideas, and we would all love to read your take on it.

Going with the Angle that the Crannogs were aligned with the Singers specifically, and the Starks/First Men being a different man... So we're at the Pact. Perhaps the wise Singers, who already had a northern base in a great Weirwood root, decided they should no longer be a presence in the south, and a way to keep them protected and Isolated was to erect the Wall, in a great sense to keep even these peace accord First Men out, or at least a more difficult path. This accord had the Crannogs keeping Old Gods tradition pure in the south, a line of communication between the Green Men and the Singer's in the God's Eye, and some traditions with the Wall to keep the order so to speak.

I liked all of your thoughts but I wanted to save space and leave what I am commenting on. I think this could work and wanted to add a few things. Maybe the Crannogs stayed in the Neck for defense not only for communication with the Isle. The Neck is a very defendable area and plays to their strengh, they probably wouldn't want any enimies past that point. Another thing is the watcher on the walls and Greywater Watch could be one of those walls. We have discussed this before with the Wall, WF, and Moat Cailin being the walls but in your theory it can apply as well and maybe add GW.

[Black Crow]

As usual moving very fast overnight so apologies for not always responding individually.

First welcome to the new guys on the thread; a lot of what you're raising has been discussed before and in some depth and I think you might enjoy reading back if you get the time.

On the matter of the swords in the crypt. I don't think the old ones matter. There was a bit of uneasiness expressed about those that had rusted away, but yes indeed the iron would still be present in the stone. I think that the point of that was to prepare for what may or may not happen as a result of Hodor taking one of the good swords (and was there another one?) before they headed north.

On Craster, I don't think we need to go completely overboard on deconstructing the rhetoric of what Dywen says. Craster is simply being set up as a very dodgy character, although Dywen does imply that his contacts with the Walkers goes beyond giving up his sons. It is worth bearing in mind that in this sort of situation there are always middlemen, which is what Craster seems to be. It's interesting though, given his situation, there's no hint of any contact with the Children - unless of course they are the "worse" :devil:

As to the antiquity of the White Walkers; Old Nan says that they came for the first time during the Long Night, which clearly implies they've been around again since which would be consistent with a much later battle in the Night that Ended as we discussed earlier, and also with the way in which Osha and in particular Mormont seem familiar with them and while regarding them as hostile aren't running around in a panic at the mention of their name.

As to the Land of Always Winter; that's where Adara's Ice Dragon came from and where she was going to flee - until it all went pear shaped.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Reguarding the White Walkers a friend of mine said something you heretics might like. I recently had a friend, who is well read, start the series. He loves it and when he started AGOT he said he stayed up half the night reading. When I saw him the next day he was excited to tell me he started reading and he enjoyed it a lot. He talked to me about some things so I asked him what he thought about the prolouge. He was very suspicious concerning the WW and the inconsistencies with them. Like how some characters were very casual talking about them compared to Old Nan. He only got as far as Catelyn taking Tyrion at the inn. So he was refering to times like when Mormont mentioned that they seen WW near Eastwatch. I can't wait till he reads futher and I know I will have a new person to discuss the heresy with. :D

[FanTasy]

I'd love some extra chime in and support, but I believe in the Mystery Knight he's not described as being red-eyed. Or perhaps the description escaped my attention entirely. In anycase, I'm possibly wrong that he wasn't red-eyed in his younger years. It also possible that the wiki-picture skewed my view of BR, since it isn't prominently red-eyed, kind of a dark muted color that easily can look non-red.

From the Wiki. Appearance: <An albino, Brynden had milk white skin, long white hair, and red eyes. He had a red birthmark that extended from his throat up to his right cheek. Some thought that it resembled a bird.> The reference is for The Sworn Sword, page 5.

Can't verify this.

ETA Ow ... saw other reply ... well, better two answers than none :frown5:

[hotweaselsoup]

The North itself....so, how far north does it go? Anybody bothered to wonder that? Because it doesn't seem like anybody knows much about it. The parts we have seen are all, well, basically boreal forest. What's past that? Tundra? Landscapes like Canada's north (rock, snow, ice).

I've been mulling this for a while, and I'm wondering if the far north of the planet (Globos? Asoiafos?) is perpetually in shadow. I've been thinking of the planet as orbiting with its southern hemisphere permanently closest to its sun - unlike our Earth, of course. As a visualization, I imagine myself reclining in a deck chair, spinning round the sun with my feet always closest to the sun, but the back of my head always dark (and cold!).

When Drogo's funeral pyre was arranged, the north-south axis was described as from "ice to fire". Does this imply that the north is always cold/ice, and the south always hot/fire? Our Earth has hemispheres which alternate summer and winter, but I don't get the sense that there is such a seasonal flip-flop on Asoiafos.

If the north of the planet is always cold and dark, it would be the coldness/darkness of outer space - not a "normal" polar cold that occasionally sees a bit of sun. This might explain why the White Walkers - if they are a race that evolved in this Land of Always Winter - might be so supernaturally cold and dependent on darkness to exist.

The seasons of Asoiafos might occur when the planet tilts its "head" closer to or farther away from the sun. Using the deck-chair visualization again, if I recline backwards until I'm prone, the whole top of my head will be in shadow.

Anyways - so, try this one for size: The arrival of the Andals forces the First Men and Children north, further and further (including those who become the wildings). Sooner or later, some tribe (human, children, or giant), moves too far north seaching for territory/homes...and finally attact the notice of the Others. With the Others being SO different from the other races, conflict (possibly because the warmbloods bring the chance of summer, and ruin, to the North).

Yeah, one people (one person) invading and over-powering another is an important theme (maybe the central theme?) of the books, so it would make sense if the White Walkers were a cold-dependent northern race either out for conquest, or out to defend against an encroaching southern warmth.

[Nukelavee]

WSoup - Honestly, I don't think the perpetual dark thing works. I've thought it over, as well, but I'm fairly certain you'd need a world that doesn't rotate on it's axis to make that happen. The "dark" side of our Moon, isn't, we just can't see it, lit or shadowed.

The way the seasons work on different continents just can't be explained with "real" examples. On the Other hand... (heh)...

Hyper-cold is associated with the appearance of Others. Nobody knows what exists north of, say, Hardhome. (ok, this is my first post trying to explain this thought, it might be rough). So, let's say Others bring the cold (winter), with them. If you get enough Others in an area, Winter extends further, and longer.

Now, dragons. Fire, clearly, they exude heat and breath flame. So...is it that dragon draw upon the world's heat (flame, in an elemental "magic" way), and concentrate it, making less resistance for the Others to push past to reach South? IE, does this world actually have a balanced "pool" of fire and ice, with dragons and Others being "natural" checks?

(oh dear, I may be on a roll, and I'm HUNGRY!).

things to consider - the Doom. Fire, again. Too damn much fire. No Others active, Valaryia's reliance on dragons results in their "stocks" drawing too much fire to a small area.BOOM.

Now, the balance goes too far the other way, and the Others can begin to act again.

Craster - lets say his sons have become Others, somehow. Would Craster be unique among the Wildings? Did other men do the same, swelling the numbers of Others?

The dragon origin of the Dothraki - anybody have an idea of "when" that happened? Could that be at the same time as AA's forging, and/or the Long Night? ie, were dragons unleashed (possibly by AA's actions) as a response to an assault by the Others?

[Eejit]

I've pondered several times whether the world of ASOIAF may be the inside of a miniature Dyson Sphere.

I totally freaked out the first time I saw the opening credits of the TV series...

[Nukelavee]

Explain night and seasons in a Dyson sphere....:)

[hotweaselsoup]

WSoup - Honestly, I don't think the perpetual dark thing works. I've thought it over, as well, but I'm fairly certain you'd need a world that doesn't rotate on it's axis to make that happen. The "dark" side of our Moon, isn't, we just can't see it, lit or shadowed.

What, my clear-as-mud deckchair visualization didn't convince you? :D

I'm not an astronomer - not even close - but I think it might be within the realm of reason for a planet to have an area of permanent shadow at one of its poles, even with rotation on its axis. An everlasting polar night, if you will - which might be possible if the "foot" of the planet is always closest to the sun.

Eh, draw a blotch on the north pole of a rubber ball with a Sharpie marker, and then orbit it around a lightbulb. (Yes, I actually tried this :drunk: ) You can manage to spin it on its axis and go around the lightbulb sun without getting any of that lighbulb sunlight on the marker blotch. Imagine that the lightbulb is floating inside a giant cone, with the narrow end below the "sun". The ball rolls around the sun on the inside surface of this imaginary cone - with its south pole/southern hemisphere always closest to the sun.

The way the seasons work on different continents just can't be explained with "real" examples. On the Other hand... (heh)...

The seasons on my tennis ball planet in its hypothetical orbit would change if the planet's tilt weren't fixed. If it wobbled, say...

I like the idea of an area of permanent shadow at the pole, because we have that intriguing reference the Shadow on the other side of the world...

[Eejit]

Explain night and seasons in a Dyson sphere.... :)

Objects rotating around the mini-star blocking off sunlight, variations on the system found on the Ringworld. Seasons are more complex but they're at least as big an issue for a 'natural' solar system.

I'm not saying it definitely is a Dyson sphere but it's within the realm of possibility. It sure is an odd planet they're on...

[Black Crow]

Reguarding the White Walkers a friend of mine said something you heretics might like. I recently had a friend, who is well read, start the series. He loves it and when he started AGOT he said he stayed up half the night reading. When I saw him the next day he was excited to tell me he started reading and he enjoyed it a lot. He talked to me about some things so I asked him what he thought about the prolouge. He was very suspicious concerning the WW and the inconsistencies with them. Like how some characters were very casual talking about them compared to Old Nan. He only got as far as Catelyn taking Tyrion at the inn. So he was refering to times like when Mormont mentioned that they seen WW near Eastwatch. I can't wait till he reads futher and I know I will have a new person to discuss the heresy with. :D

Another of these casual references to the White Walkers comes when Bran first talks to Osha in the Godswood:

"Mance thinks he’ll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know?"

Now Osha has already mentioned people turning up their toes and then coming back with those bright blue eyes, yet Mance (and what else hasn't he told us?) thinks he can fight the Walkers, or rather thinks that they can be fought. Its also worth bearing in mind that even the rangers are hardly an elite fighting force these days. They do well enough against half armed and undisciplined Wildlings but as we've seen far too few of them are anything like as well schooled as Jon and the handful of other castle-trained men - including Ser Waymar Royce.

In the context, when Osha reckoned Mance was wrong about claiming the Walkers "were no more than rangers", she was talking about them being better fighters not supernatural beings.

[mrazny]

What, my clear-as-mud deckchair visualization didn't convince you? :D

I'm not an astronomer - not even close - but I think it might be within the realm of reason for a planet to have an area of permanent shadow at one of its poles, even with rotation on its axis. An everlasting polar night, if you will - which might be possible if the "foot" of the planet is always closest to the sun.

Eh, draw a blotch on the north pole of a rubber ball with a Sharpie marker, and then orbit it around a lightbulb. (Yes, I actually tried this :drunk: ) You can manage to spin it on its axis and go around the lightbulb sun without getting any of that lighbulb sunlight on the marker blotch. Imagine that the lightbulb is floating inside a giant cone, with the narrow end below the "sun". The ball rolls around the sun on the inside surface of this imaginary cone - with its south pole/southern hemisphere always closest to the sun.

The seasons on my tennis ball planet in its hypothetical orbit would change if the planet's tilt weren't fixed. If it wobbled, say...

I like the idea of an area of permanent shadow at the pole, because we have that intriguing reference the Shadow on the other side of the world...

I'm gonna try to get my physics on, which i make no promises about. I've got accounting brain now, my engineering brain was shut down something like 8 1/2 years ago... Debunk my assumptions as they happen...

We'll start with Earth and move to ASOIAF. We are spinning around our axis. This gives us our day/night cycle. We don't feel this rotation even though we are literally going 1,000 miles an hour. (at the equator, the circumference is 24,873.6 miles, we travel that in a day in space without relation to the earth). We don't feel this because gravity acts perfectly in sync with our axis of rotation. The Earth is rotating around the Sun. Again we don't feel this speed because of the gravitational pull of the sun is consistently along the same plane relative to our axis, and the force felt in the pull in that direction is much more minimal compared to the effect the earth's gravity has on us. Take all of this and include the way this rotation creates a consistent predictable magnetic field and a lot of how things work now work.

In an exagerated turn, for your angle to always have your feet closest to the sun, that means it is consistently rotating like a top when it's running out of juice. obviously it's one rotation per loop around the sun, but you just added a rotation with it's consistent "balancing" force being the much weaker felt pull of the sun. We'd consistently have some "G" that we feel that starts the day pulling you every so slightly north, then west, then south, then east etc., with some point of the world where those forces are more exaggerated than others. But also, in the end, this I'm pretty sure changes the magnetic fields of the earth. We'd no longer have compasses that work, etc.

my physics brain is exhausted, it's out of shape, and it's tapping out.

[Nukelavee]

Yeah, Weasel, you'd need some kind of regular axial wobble, and that would have global seasonal and weather effects.

Eeigit - I figured you go for a Ringworld reference. The problem is - shadowsquares leave...shadows, they are visible.Globoss (I like that name) doesn't seem to have those.

On the other hand...Protecters could righteously tear thru wights, Others, and teh entire Dothraki nation.

[Sam with Hooters]

Someone get mrazny a Maester's link for astronomy . . .

[hotweaselsoup]

I'm gonna try to get my physics on, which i make no promises about. I've got accounting brain now, my engineering brain was shut down something like 8 1/2 years ago... Debunk my assumptions as they happen...

We'll start with Earth and move to ASOIAF. We are spinning around our axis. This gives us our day/night cycle. We don't feel this rotation even though we are literally going 1,000 miles an hour. (at the equator, the circumference is 24,873.6 miles, we travel that in a day in space without relation to the earth). We don't feel this because gravity acts perfectly in sync with our axis of rotation. The Earth is rotating around the Sun. Again we don't feel this speed because of the gravitational pull of the sun is consistently along the same plane relative to our axis, and the force felt in the pull in that direction is much more minimal compared to the effect the earth's gravity has on us. Take all of this and include the way this rotation creates a consistent predictable magnetic field and a lot of how things work now work.

In an exagerated turn, for your angle to always have your feet closest to the sun, that means it is consistently rotating like a top when it's running out of juice. obviously it's one rotation per loop around the sun, but you just added a rotation with it's consistent "balancing" force being the much weaker felt pull of the sun. We'd consistently have some "G" that we feel that starts the day pulling you every so slightly north, then west, then south, then east etc., with some point of the world where those forces are more exaggerated than others. But also, in the end, this I'm pretty sure changes the magnetic fields of the earth. We'd no longer have compasses that work, etc.

my physics brain is exhausted, it's out of shape, and it's tapping out.

I'm not sure I understood a word of that, but it sounded really smart!

Eh, I'm just trying to pin down those dang white walkers. I swear, they have gone through so many variations in my head: vengeful Stark ghosts; ice faeries (thanks to Eira for that one); weirwood trees with feet; minions of the Great Other; various combinations of all of the above. My current theory is that they are a race of ice beings, who live in the perma-dark and ultra-cold of the always-in-shadow north pole. That will probably change - oh, next week. Sigh. (I have to keep reminding myself that it wouldn't be near as fun if it were easy to figure out... :bang: )

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I posted some ideas about the NW being Lighbringer on one of the threads started by AppleMartini about this matter, but the thread seems to have gone quiet, and I really wanted some feedback. Comparisons between the NW, its oath, history, and the story of the forging of Lightbringer have been discussed in previous incarnations of this thread, but I think I have a few specifics to contribute that might be new.

I agree that the NW is probably the current Lightbringer, and I think the story of how LB was forged three times (and broken twice) relates directly to the history of the NW.

We've been playing with the idea of the NW being a lot older than it seems, perhaps forged during the signing of the pact between Children and FM. For my theory, the idea of a watch to guard the heritage of the Children has to go back a little further, to apoint when it would be something that included only COTF. The main purpose of this "proto-NW" would be to keep the natural balance in Westeros, which would entail keeping it, and the weirwoods safe from invaders. The first attempt at forging Lightbringer ended with the tempering of this NW, and shattering, in water. The first invasion of Westeros by weirwood destroyers (the First Men) was met with the smashing of the Arm of Dorne by the Hammer of the Waters, an effort of the COTF, or some group of Children, powerful in the ways of magic. However, this was a failure, it was too late to stop the advance of the FM, war ensued, weirwoods were burned, Children slaughtered. This leads me to the conclusion that the smashing of the Greenseers of the Children after failure of the Hammer of the Waters = Ist forging and breaking of Lightbringer in water.

The Children and FM ended their war on the Isle of Faces, where the wood dancers and greenseers of the Children met with representatives of the FM and formed a pact. I think this pact was supposed to be the second forging of the NW/Lightbringer, this time including the FM, who had adopted the religion of the Children. However, it once again broke in its tempering, aka testing, against the Andals.

There are two ways to view the tempering and breaking of the sword: In the first, the sword breaks when the children fail to bring down the HotW again at the neck. the Children once again attempted to cut the invaders off from the rest of the continent, this time forced farther north, at the neck, and once again they failed. The Children's Tower stands with its top blasted off, and we know the Andals succeeded in entrenching themselves, burning weirdwoods, and slaughtering the Children wherever they found them. I'm going to stretch a bit to explain how the tempering in a Lion comes into this. The NW broke this time against the Andals, and the sigil of the Andal house of Lannister is the Lion. The Lannisters are "fair haired and tall" like the original Andals, pure enough in their Andal genetics with little intermarrying so that they retain these traits.

The second interpretation of Lightbringer breaking in a Lion is the one I favor overwhelmingly: The NW finally broke in ADWD with the assassination of Jon. This iteration of the NW was forged at the Pact, this stands. It was supposed to represent an alliance between FM and the Children, but it slowly deteriorated as the Andals invaded and took over culturally. The NW was slowly turned from its true purpose, slowly turned back on its alliance with the Children, and the breaking point came with the current Wars, culminating in the betrayal of LC Jon, the last person who gave a crap about preserving the original purpose of the watch. Why Lions? Because Lannisters are the direct cause of the wars leading up to this event, Lannisters are the direct cause of the fall of House Stark, and indirectly, what caused Jon to put himself in the position he was in when assassinated.

So...the second smashing of the combined forces of Children and FM = 2nd forging and breaking of Lightbringer in a Lion.

Finally, this brings us to the third forging, which is supposed to be the only succesfull one. The forging will happen in the WoW, probably with Jon's resurrection, but the testing, the tempering will come when the NW has to "sacrifice" something precious to it in order to fulfill its actual purpose. Any ideas what this could be?

The one thing that doesn't line up with this account is that the history I just gave encompasses the period during which the first LB with the first AA was supposed to have existed. I'm not sure how to resolve that with my theory, other than saying that maybe the entire LB thing was never a literal event, but always symbolic and prophetic. I completely understand that that's very shaky ground though.

[tze]

I've always wondered about why we have a Lord Commander over everything, a Lord Steward over the stewards, but a First Builder over the builders and a First Ranger over the Rangers. What did the original Watch look like, that some are now called "Firsts" and some "Lords"?

Maybe the whole "the dragon must have three heads" thing actually has more to do with the Watch than with actual dragons. I'm wondering if the phrasing here is merely a misinterpretation that came about through people in Essos believing Lightbringer had to do with dragons. The book Aemon had Jon read, written by a guy who'd traveled far to the East who seemed to think that gave him some authority over knowing what Lightbringer was, certainly couched Lightbringer in terms that sound dragon-ish. Perhaps many in Essos believed Lightbringer was actually a dragon? But if Lightbringer really = the Watch, then maybe this phrase didn't originally describe a dragon, it described Lightbringer, and people who heard it simply substituted "dragon" for "Lightbringer" because they assumed Lightbringer was a dragon? Lightbringer was "forged" three times, we have some sort of unexplained prophecy about a dragon needing three heads, and there are three "subsets" of Watchmen: stewards, rangers, and builders. Maybe it's not the "dragon" that must have 3 heads, maybe it's Lightbringer, the Watch, that must have three "heads"---a head of the Rangers, a head of the Stewards, and a head of the Builders.

Perhaps there originally was no Lord Commander. I mean, we have legends about the first Stark of Winterfell, so why no legends about the first Lord Commander? And the legends we do have say the guy who built Winterfell also raised the Wall. Perhaps the Watch originally answered directly to the Stark in Winterfell and the "lord commander" position only came about when the castles on the Wall banded together and rebelled against Winterfell (under the leadership of the Night's King, maybe?). Legends say the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander, but that's certainly not dispositive. Perhaps the "dragon must have three heads" prophecy actually refers to the idea that the Watch should return to its original status as part of the North, answering to the King in the North rather than to itself. In other words, if it's not "the dragon" but "Lightbringer/the Watch" that must have three heads, then perhaps the current status---four heads, not three---means the position of Lord Commander isn't part of the Watch's original mission.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

On the orbital mechanics issue:

(having problems with multiquote at this time, sorry)

The Earth performs 1 revolution around the Sun in one year, of course. The Earth's axis is tilted at ~23 deg. The earth "wobbles", like an off-axis top, completing one "wobble" every 26,000 years. This is known as "the precession of the equinox".

To have a polar area in a state of perpetual darkness, the axis would need to be tilted, and the rate of precession would need to equal the rate of revolution.

I've always assumed that everything we see in the maps is in the northern hemisphere, with the equator being well south of the southern coast of Westeros. And I believe GRRM once said that the wonky seasons are due to magic. So I wouldn't look to orbital mechanics for any explanations.