Heresy 8

[Lummel]

...

My point is, that if we try to dig down to core of prophecies (AA, Ptwp), we can find two main things, which are:

1. One day a huge enemy will attack us

2. On the day, when the enemy attacks, one leader among us (people) will rise, and (s)he will defeat our enemy

...

I think we can't get to the core of those prophecies. They are mysteries.

What we know about Azor Ahai is that he made a magic sword and had to kill his wife. We don't know who his enemies were, or how he beat them. In the context that we are told the story it's clear that it is a warning - heroism is dangerous, it comes at a very high price to the hero.

What we know about the prince who was promised is that there is a prince who is promised and that the dragon will have three heads. What the prince is promised for, what it means is unknown. It might be that believing in the story led Rhaegar to kidnap Lyanna and spark the civil war - again it's something dangerous and destructive.

[Frey spy]

I think we can't get to the core of those prophecies. They are mysteries.

What we know about Azor Ahai is that he made a magic sword and had to kill his wife. We don't know who his enemies were, or how he beat them. In the context that we are told the story it's clear that it is a warning - heroism is dangerous, it comes at a very high price to the hero.

What we know about the prince who was promised is that there is a prince who is promised and that the dragon will have three heads. What the prince is promised for, what it means is unknown. It might be that believing in the story led Rhaegar to kidnap Lyanna and spark the civil war - again it's something dangerous and destructive.

that is exactly why i was talking about the core, and you seem to reach the same conclusion as i did: all we know is that he had enemies, and he defeated them. about the rest i agree with you, that it is complete mystery.Thats why we can say the same thing about AAR: he will have enemies, and he will defeat them, who that person actually is (or who becomes AAR), how he will achieve this, and on which side will he be on is unknown. If we assume that AAR is the champion of mankind, than the whole point of the prophecy is to plant hope, because someone will be able to thwart the danger. I also agree about being a hero comes with a price/danger (Bran lost his dreams/Jon lost his life(?)/Dany lost her family/etc).

About the ptwp prophecy: so the dragon has three heads. So who is this dragon? is it real 3headed dragon? is it three dragons that are controlled by a single persons will? it can even be a metaphor, representing an alliance, who have three equal leaders (Jon+Bran+Stan or maybe Dany+Tyrion+Vic).

Since we dont know what the prophecies really mean, or about whom they are (supposed to be) about, thats why i was trying to focus on their purpose, which is: dont give up, you will be saved somehow. It is much easier fighting something that you can hope to defeat, than fighting when the main question is not wheter will we win, but when will we fail.

[butterbumps!]

I'm not sure about factions as such, but as ever its worth bearing in mind that the Children encountered by Bran and his friends are singers and greenseers. Thus far we haven't knowingly encountered any wood-dancers - their warriors.

Yes- and I want to mention that I really appreciate all your past explications about the wood dancers- if not for that, I'd have completely overlooked them.

Something's been nagging me, though about the essence of magic we see, which might just be a lack of textual explanation we have about how magic originates, or who was originally intended to wield it.

I think the premise here is (abridged) that the CoTF hold extreme magical powers-- shattering the land-bridge to Essos, bringing the hammer of waters at Moat Cailin, fostering/creating White Walkers, greenseeing, weirnetting, skin-changing, building feats of engineering, etc. As a contrast to the "nature magic" we have dragons, Valyrian prophesy and Valyrian "spells"-- fire and blood magic-- but these magics seem to boil down to humans as the sole beneficiaries/ wielders of these powers. Fire is an elemental force of nature, and it seems odd to me that if the CoTF are responsible for Earth powers (shattering land), Water powers (flooding the Moat), and Ice powers (Winter/ WW), that we haven't seen any CoTF that wield fire. I'm not sure I'm suggesting that there are CoTF "fire dancers" or the like, but only that I find it interesting that we (myself included) consider their uses of water, ice and earth as connotatively more "natural" and uniform in scope than the contrasting fire.

I suppose my query is whether all magic originated with the CoTF- that they were intended to be the sole recipients of these powers, and if so, then it stands to reason that they must also have a hand in fire magic somehow. If this is the case, I really wonder what their magic looked like (how it was used) before the arrival of the First Men- were there always WW, seasonal imbalances, tensions between the brands of magics? Was the world kept in balance because these "perfect" beings never abused magic, as they were the intended recipients for such powers?

I suppose further, the issue of magic having an "activation switch" rooted in blood on both the "natural" and "fire" side nags at me as well. I haven't found evidence of the CoTF directly using "blood magic" to activate their own powers, although we do see humans involved in sacrifices and offerings. Is this how humans tap into these powers in the first place? I think the fact that there are human skin-changers and greenseers is explainable if its assumed interbreeding with CoTF occurred, but it seems that any other magic we've seen requires the blood price, including even the mundane sample Maggy the Frog needs to foretell Cersei's future.

I really do wonder how much control the CoTF have over some of the destructive acts attributed to them, or if these destructive acts are more like unintended consequences of non-CoTF using magic, unleashed beyond the control of of the CoTF. I'm really not sure what I think, because all of the thoughts that have been mentioned about the CoTF unleashing WW, hammer of waters, etc to defend against the occupation of their lands by men are extremely reasonable and probable. Still, there's something about it that vexes me.

[Lykos]

@Butterbumps

I have the same problems with the magic of the Children. Some of their magic I don´t even consider as magic, for example the weirnetting, as it seems unintrusive. Other magic like warging, and worse the manipulation of natural forces are clearly magical and there should be a price to pay.

I think GRRM cannot give us some essential pieces of the nature of magic without revealing too much of where the story is going.

I agree with you regarding the CotF using blood magic. I don´t think they do. I think the hints we have of sacrifices are botched or rather perverted human attempts at gaining access to the Childrens magic.

I think balancing the magic is a question of how far you take it, and where you stand. For example is smithing, already magic and unbalancing? I, as a human, think not. The trees turned to charcoal to feed the forge and the earth disrupted to mine the ore might see it differently, and so would the CotF, who sing the songs of earth.

But as you said fire is a force of nature too and so is the wind. The ore and the magma in the mines of Valyria are also earth. I think the magic lies in the knowledge and the spirit / attitude one uses it in. The CotF clearly believe in the material world and the circle of life, they are patient, because they live for hundreds of years (naturaly ?). And they preserve their collective culture in the weirwoods.

Man has a different mindset and to the most extreme the followers of R´hllor. They see the material world as evil and they fear death. Melisandre thinks in ADwD that, "Sleep is the little death, and dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night."

There is a very interesting

, where GRRM tells us what inspired the religions of ASoIaF. Start at 47 min. Most interesting to me is his remark about the Cathar heresy.

[Black Crow]

Are we really sure of this? I mean, that the horn has been taken North of the Wall?

Its generally believed that the horn is north of the Wall. That's not to say its true, only that people inside and outside of the book believe it to be true. At this point in time all I'm really doing is demonstrating the feasibility of the theory that when Joruman and that un-named Stark of Winterfell ganged up against Bran Stark the Nights King everybody was below the Wall. In other words the obvious question of how they managed to co-operate with the Wall lying between them doesn't arise because it didn't lie between them at that time.

[Black Crow]

I really do wonder how much control the CoTF have over some of the destructive acts attributed to them, or if these destructive acts are more like unintended consequences of non-CoTF using magic, unleashed beyond the control of of the CoTF. I'm really not sure what I think, because all of the thoughts that have been mentioned about the CoTF unleashing WW, hammer of waters, etc to defend against the occupation of their lands by men are extremely reasonable and probable. Still, there's something about it that vexes me.

Its a fair point and I think one that goes back to my earlier suggestion that magic doesn't come from the dragons but from the red star and that it waxes and wanes either due to its distance from Martin's world or because it only showers a finite amount of magic pixie dust on each pass. Consequently as I suggested the last dragons withered and died precisely because magic was then drying up, while the present generation have hatched after all these years because magic has returned thanks to the red star bleeding some fresh pixie dust.

Similarly with the Children. I think once upon a time they may even have surprised themselves with the unexpected power of their magic - an oops didn't mean to do that moment - which has since waned, until the return of the red star. How this fits in with the cold winds rising I'm not sure, but I am sure that ultimately its down to the star.

This may be what the Maesters or at least some of them have realised; that they live in a rational world which is upset every time that star swings by and magic only then comes alive

[Jojen]

If Joramun brought the Horn south of the Wall, and the Horn supposedly can be used to topple the Wall, then Joruman must have brought it with him for another purpose. Unless the Wall can be toppled because the Horn wakes the giants, who then bring it down themselves. But the Wall didn't fall then. Perhaps he intended to offer it as a gift to the King in the North after the battle, as a show of good faith, but somehow he lost it and it was returned to the North.

Or, since Tormund claims that Mance never actually found the Horn and so therefore the horn that Mel burned was not the real Horn, it's possible that the real one made it into the Stark's hands and is currently somewhere in the tombs below Winterfell, a well-kept secret that only the ghosts of the Kings of Winter remember.

[lokisnow]

Has there been any heresy connection between Bran's weirwood seed paste and Dany's Shade of the Evening. It even seems like Dany enters the warlocks den through a tree (it's not a door, but a great hole like a mouth in a giant carved face). I wonder if Weirwoods have an ebony counterpart...

[unRobert]

One thing I've been wondering about traces back to the first prologue. I know many of you heretics may not think the WW have woken and have always been around, but whether it's a matter of them waking or their power growing, they're return began before dragons -or the red comet returned. Mayhaps the red comet/dragons is a reaction of R'hllor (or whatever force the red gang is interpreting as the Lord of Light) to the "Great Other's" marshaling his forces.

It's interesting that the first scene of GoT is a WW attack and the last scene of the book is the return of dragons. So I guess my question is, that although most people in the book and many readers assume that dragons and the return of magic go hand-in-hand, what's up with the WW? What "woke them up"?

[Black Crow]

I don't think they needed to be woken up. Craster has been giving up his sons to them for years and Mormont didn't seem particularly bothered about them being seen near Eastwatch - as in they've always been around but not seen much.

[Jojen]

Well, in one of Jon's chapters in ASOS, Ygritte tells him that the Wildling believe that when the Thief, which is their name for the comet, appears in the constellation of the Moonmaid, that's a good time to take a wife. Wildlings usually take a wife by stealing or capturing her. It's a raid. If the comet is connected with dragons or the Red God, then it might be that the Moon is somehow connected with the Great Other, and the Red God is effectively "raiding" the lands of the Others. Although it seems like it should be the other way around, since Winter is coming, not Summer.

[Lummel]

Has there been any heresy connection between Bran's weirwood seed paste and Dany's Shade of the Evening. It even seems like Dany enters the warlocks den through a tree (it's not a door, but a great hole like a mouth in a giant carved face). I wonder if Weirwoods have an ebony counterpart...

It is a new parallel to me. And if I remember the last Victarion chapter in AFFC correctly don't both shade of the evening and weirwood paste have an effect on consciousness?

[Jojen]

Has there been any heresy connection between Bran's weirwood seed paste and Dany's Shade of the Evening. It even seems like Dany enters the warlocks den through a tree (it's not a door, but a great hole like a mouth in a giant carved face). I wonder if Weirwoods have an ebony counterpart...

Well, they do both grant you visions. If there originally were any Children in Essos but no weirwoods handy, maybe they used Shade of the Evening instead.

It is interesting how Dany's experience in the House of the Undying somewhat parallels Bran's time in Bloodraven's cave.

[Lummel]

I agree with you regarding the CotF using blood magic. I don´t think they do. I think the hints we have of sacrifices are botched or rather perverted human attempts at gaining access to the Childrens magic.

I disagree and am going to be heretical in regard to your heresy :) . I think blood magic is at the heart of it or that blood is at least also one of the fundamental powers that can be tapped for magical purposes. Blood is to people as wind, water, fire and so on are to the system of the world (in a Gaia, hand-waving kind of sense). Well that's my theory anyway.

[Lummel]

...It is interesting how Dany's experience in the House of the Undying somewhat parallels Bran's time in Bloodraven's cave.

Explain more! Could be an interesting comparison...

[lokisnow]

Well, they do both grant you visions. If there originally were any Children in Essos but no weirwoods handy, maybe they used Shade of the Evening instead.

It is interesting how Dany's experience in the House of the Undying somewhat parallels Bran's time in Bloodraven's cave.

I noted that as well, it's a really strong parallel, when I reread the HotU chapter last night.

Also, there is a very tiny person next to the entrance of the House, so there are your children.

The dothraki tell dany she can't trust Quaithe because she is a shadow who won't show her face to the sun.

Maybe White Walkers are frozen shadows, not spirits, and Quaithe is just the non-frozen-land equivalent. ;)

[Uncat]

Sorry, accidentaly posted to early

[Uncat]

A random collection of thoughts:

First of all, on the Horn of Winter:

Like any othe culture, the people at Westeros would have a lot of legends without a grain of truth. What if the the horn never existed? As much as I would love to see some hugh old Giants rise from the earth and crashing this seven hundred feet high frozen wave. The legend alone is a great tool for the writer of this story. So what if the whole Horn of Winter business was just about getting Mance into the Frostfangs (from a storytelling point of view) to unearth another horn, a dragon horn. I still think, that iti is very interesting having a dragon horn showing up north of the wall.

Second of all, @ Butterbumbs and the fire as part of nature

Fire is different from earth or water. In the the mythology of many cultures, it is a great and important moment when man learns to use fire. Fire like nothing else gives him the the power to subdue nature and creat an artificial, manformed enviroment. With fire he has light in the dark, heat in the cold. He has a magnificent wappon to keep of wild beast and a tool to prepare manmade food (cooked and backed in contrast to as raw as nature serves it.) The moment man learned to to use fire, he detaches himself from nature and starts to create a world to his liking. And I'm not talking about forging metals. Btw, man and dragons are quite similar in this (apart from the forging of metal thing)

And a third thing

I have tried the Google magic and nothing came up. Did you ever tie the fight between the commanders of Nightfort and Snowgate to the Night's King?

Jon remebers how Benjen told this as a sidenote, when talking about the impossibility to defend the castles on the Wall. The two forts fight. The LC tries to interfere and the fighters join to turn against him. They are brought down and beheaded by the Stark in Winterfell. Two notes on this. This was before the conquest. Why is not "The King in the North" the one interfering? And would the LC not be located in the Nightfort back then? Or is it, that the actuall LC was the rebelious commander of the NF and the Whatch elected a new LC, to fight him. And when the history was weitten by the winner, the omittet this and gave the story a low profile so no obe would talk about this. (I just came across this on my reread and was wondering).

[Jojen]

Explain more! Could be an interesting comparison...

Like Lockesnow mentions, the House of the Undying is attended by dwarves. To Bran, the Children in the cave are smaller than Arya.

But there’s more.

Dany is told that many enter the House of the Undying, but few leave again. Bloodraven’s cave contains the bones of animals, giants, and children, suggesting that many entered—or were brought—and died there. We don’t know if any escaped.

Dany is told by Pyat Pree, “Leaving and coming, it is the same. Always up.” For Bran, it’s the opposite, at least when entering the cave. When and if he leaves, we could assume it’s by going back up, but perhaps, like Dany, it won’t be the same way he arrived.

Pyat Pree tells her she’ll see “Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and day that never were.” She sees her home in Braavos, and later her father. Bran sees the past and perhaps the future through the weirwoods, including his father at Winterfell.

She’s also told that “our little lives are no more than the flicker of a moth’s wing” to the Undying. BR tells Bran that to a weirwood, “seasons pass in the flutter of a moth’s wing.”

Both are treated to music. Dany is welcomed by a “splendor of wizards” and “the most beautiful music she had ever heard.” Bran hears the music of the Children singing with voices “as pure as the winter air.”

As beautiful as the music is, there’s a pervading sense of death and decay in both the House of the Undying and Bloodraven’s cave. The rooms in the House of the Undying are gloomy and faded, and grow darker as Dany proceeds. As Bran descends the dark and shadowy passages beneath the earth, he thinks All the color is gone. At one point, Pyat Pree appears to Dany inside the House and his face turns pale and wormlike. Bran initially mistakes the roots of the weirwood trees to be milk snakes or giant grave worms. Dany passes through a door of ebony and weirwood. For Bran, “the world was black soil and white wood.”

Beyond light and dark, black and white, each place also has one other color associated with it. With the House of the Undying, it’s blue—the leaves of the trees outside (from which Shade of the Evening is produced, which tastes like all the things you've tasted before, and some you haven't) are blue; the Undying themselves are blue shadows; and the heart of the Undying pulses blue. Above Bloodraven’s cave, the wights have icy blue eyes, but the weirwood trees have red leaves, Bloodraven’s eye and his birthmark are red, Bran, Jojen, and Meera eat blood stew, and Bran eats a paste with red veins (of actual blood or only weirwood sap) running through it. The paste seems to taste sort of like Shade of the Evening, of flavors familiar to him. At first its bitter, but then becomes sweet, and reminds Bran of "the last kiss his mother ever gave him."

Red and blue….Fire and ice?

ETA: The wights outside of BR's cave are destroyed by fire. The Undying are also destroyed by fire.

[butterbumps!]

magic doesn't come from the dragons but from the red star and that it waxes and wanes either due to its distance from Martin's world or because it only showers a finite amount of magic pixie dust on each pass. Consequently as I suggested the last dragons withered and died precisely because magic was then drying up, while the present generation have hatched after all these years because magic has returned thanks to the red star bleeding some fresh pixie dust.

Hmm...I've wondered about that-- the causality between the comets and the presence of magic. Do we know if the powers of the CoTF also wax and wane? I had assumed that their abilities remained constant, excepting their diminishing numbers due to being displaced by men. I guess I can't shake the feeling that there's some kind of cosmic difference that occurs when men use magic versus the Children. But I agree, it seems that something takes place that yields the increased presence of magic, and the comet does seem the likely culprit.

Are there any thoughts as to why the comet comes when it does, or why magic is periodically increased? Is the idea that it also brings Winter, or that Winter is coming and increased magic is needed to hold it back?

I think balancing the magic is a question of how far you take it, and where you stand. For example is smithing, already magic and unbalancing? I, as a human, think not. The trees turned to charcoal to feed the forge and the earth disrupted to mine the ore might see it differently, and so would the CotF, who sing the songs of earth.

But as you said fire is a force of nature too and so is the wind. The ore and the magma in the mines of Valyria are also earth. I think the magic lies in the knowledge and the spirit / attitude one uses it in. The CotF clearly believe in the material world and the circle of life, they are patient, because they live for hundreds of years (naturaly ?). And they preserve their collective culture in the weirwoods.

Fire is different from earth or water. In the the mythology of many cultures, it is a great and important moment when man learns to use fire. Fire like nothing else gives him the the power to subdue nature and creat an artificial, manformed enviroment. With fire he has light in the dark, heat in the cold. He has a magnificent wappon to keep of wild beast and a tool to prepare manmade food (cooked and backed in contrast to as raw as nature serves it.) The moment man learned to to use fire, he detaches himself from nature and starts to create a world to his liking. And I'm not talking about forging metals. Btw, man and dragons are quite similar in this (apart from the forging of metal thing)

I like both of your points on fire/ technology ("it all depends where you're standing"). I would argue though that Fire isn't necessarily different than Earth, Wind and Water (of which I think Ice is, at least physically a subset) as elemental natural forces. Like the other elements, man didn't create fire, but by controlling it, this enabled an exponential leap in progress (technology). I do think it's interesting that fire magic seems omitted from the CoTF toolbox, but it's the form of magic that we've seen largely harnessed by humans.