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[Book Spoilers] Is Jaime now a kinslayer?


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23 replies to this topic

#1 strifed169

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:21 PM

I honestly didn't like the scene were he murdered his own cousin, I thought it was out of character for him because I got the impression he held himself at high standard in terms of loyalty to his/the family. And whats this going to do for his character later on in the series? Word will surely be spread from the North and in AFFC he is travelling Westeros and crosses paths with alot of his relatives, how are they going to see him now that hes slain his own blood and isn't it just as bad if not worse than being a kingslayer?..

#2 victim

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:28 PM

I agree completely. Especially as it could have been easily avoided by making them even further distant relatives by naming him Cleos Frey! I'd have no qualms with Jaime killing a Frey attached by marriage or something.

#3 Eddard Sand

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:53 PM

So far the Kinslaying taboo hasn't been introduced in the show so i'm guessing it is not going to be a big deal for him. He is a member of THE FAMILY thus the offshoot Alton has done him good service.

#4 Cardinal Sin

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:48 PM

I also agree this was a bit unnecessary. Jaime could have just told his cousin to play dead. Or he could have beaten him up without actually killing him. Both would have done the trick.

#5 Laohu

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:52 PM

He has managed to live down the notoriety of being a kingslayer, so I do not think tacking on kinslaying to his list of achievements is going to affect him much.

#6 Stanmore

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:06 PM

Well there is that part in ADWD where Selmy talks about how much Aerys was in love with Tywin's wife, there's a slim chance Jaime was a kinslayer all along....

#7 Eggplant Wizard

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:07 PM

yeah i dont think it was necessary either. it was still a great scene and i still enjoyed it, but i think jaime has been a bit gimped. i know it wasn't really avoidable but they should show his fighting prowess more often to make it more impactful when he loses his hand

#8 jarl the climber

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:12 PM

This fellow was a very distant relative, I don't think kinslaying applies to 4th cousins or whatever he was supposed to be but what do I know?

#9 tfoxx22

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:07 PM

Maybe this scene was to help show how ruthless and egoistic he is now, so that after he loses his hand it looks like a more dramatic turn around for him. Just a thought, but since we won't get to be inside his head and see how he changes after losing his hand, they might contrast this event with him saving someone's life or something in the show.

#10 dtones520

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:10 PM

I think, personally, kinslaying refers to your immediate family.

#11 teemo

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:06 AM

What I didn't understand, is why didn't Jaime just tell him to play dead? Or...anything else? Why all the drama and theatrics and murder? I guess to make it more interesting for television, but that seemed a little ridiculous.

#12 Greymane

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:07 AM

When Karstark gets beheaded by Robb, he says Robb would now be a kinslayer, since Starks and Karstarks share the same blood. So i guess the kinslayer taboo do apply for distant relatives

Edited by Greymane, 15 May 2012 - 12:08 AM.


#13 Jolene Brown

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:22 AM

Karstark isn't the most rational guy though, especially not then.

#14 Zod

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:34 AM

WAIT, KINslayer OR KINGslayer? Now he is both...

Anyways, remember, Jaime has killed the innocent or tried to kill defenseless people to save his hide before.

#15 Xander Baratheon

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:25 AM

I think what frustrated me the most about this killing was that it ended up being frivolous and even before Jaime was recaptured it didn't hold much hope of being a successful plan. I get the other ignoble acts: Throw Bran out the window and he can't tell anyone about Jaime and Cersei, kill Aerys and his pet alchemists and no one will set the city on fire. This episode was more like kill my cousin and... everything else SHOULD fall into place after. So many other ways he could have done it.

#16 Greywolf2375

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:03 AM

What I didn't understand, is why didn't Jaime just tell him to play dead? Or...anything else? Why all the drama and theatrics and murder? I guess to make it more interesting for television, but that seemed a little ridiculous.

What would have made it more interesting to me is to have him try to escape with Alton and somehow have Alton killed in that exchange if they wanted/needed to get rid of the character - dying to help his hero escape.

#17 Independent George

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:13 AM

I don't like nitpicking every minor deviation from the books, but as I mentioned in the other thread, this is completely at odds with Jaime's character. For all the horrible things he's done, none of them were truly self-interested. Even Bran's fall was done for Cersei's benefit rather than his own. And to do it right after he is reminded what it feels like to be admired, when the whole world was still open to him...

This doesn't make his change more surprising, it makes it more unbelievable. The self loathing and longing for respect has to always be inside him - it can't just come from nowhere. Killing a boy who idolizes him for his own benefit breaks that.

#18 Frumpus

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:33 AM

I think what frustrated me the most about this killing was that it ended up being frivolous and even before Jaime was recaptured it didn't hold much hope of being a successful plan. I get the other ignoble acts: Throw Bran out the window and he can't tell anyone about Jaime and Cersei, kill Aerys and his pet alchemists and no one will set the city on fire. This episode was more like kill my cousin and... everything else SHOULD fall into place after. So many other ways he could have done it.


He never thought he was getting out of there alive. His dialogue pretty much inferred he preferred a suicide escape attempt to staying locked up.

#19 imladolen

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

I found Jaime's killing of Alton to be completely in character; yes it was cold blooded (and coldly logical), and yes it makes him a kinslayer. But you have to look at the bigger picture.

First, as we all know, it is the first duty of any prisoner (especially a POW during a war) to escape (aside from those knights and nobles given their parole and swear to not escape, but those people aren't going to be penned in squalor, but in conditions befitting their rank). This supercedes just about everything, especially when you consider that the prisoner is one of the army's commanders, the brother of the queen mum, a member of the Kingsgaurd and the uncle (well, father really) of the King. Jaime Lannister is much much more important than little old Alton Lannister. Even Alton kind of referenced this when he mentions how his father feared Alton would "embarass the family in front of The Family." The welfare, safety and freedom of the children of Lord Lannister supercedes all other minor family members (at least in this sort of feudal setting). Not to mention the fact that Jaime is one of the greatest warriors on his side of the war. His value is worth sacrificing the life of a distant relative. And Alton was completely sincere when he said he would do anything to help Jaime escape. Sorry, but if you are an enlisted man or lower ranked officer and you are imprisoned with one of your army's most important officers, and your death will help your commander to escape, it really is your duty to die in this situation.

I'm not saying Jaime enjoyed killing Alton, I think it did pain him inside, just as it pained him to push Bran out that window, just as it pained him to violate his oath when he killed Mad King Aerys. But, as he explained to Cat, you have to weigh one oath against another, weigh one wrong against another. Allowing Aerys II to live and most likely burn all of King's Landing to the ground (and killing thousands of the weak and innocent he had sworn to protect) was a worse violation than killing the king. The wrong of pushing Bran out the window paled when you compare it to the death sentence that would be meeted out to him, his sister Cersei and the three children they had together if Bran had told anyone what he had witnessed. What is the life of one child you are not even related to (and don't even really know) when you compare it to the life of the woman you love and your OWN three children? The wrong of killing a distant member of the Lannister family paled in comparison to the wrongs that could be done to his family and kingdom as a whole (from his POV) if he remained a prisoner. Yes, he might have an inflated sense of importance as to his role in winning the war, but remember, despite being almost universally called the Kingslayer, he is still regarded throughout Westeros as one of the greatest warriors alive. His skills in combat, and likely in command, would be invaluable to maintaining his house's prominance, and maintaining Joffrey on the throne. If his family lost the war, what the hell do you think would happen to Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen and Cersei? They would all be killed, as would most likely his brother and father. I'm sorry, I am a (mostly) non-violent person (and I don't think I could sleep well for years if I ever took a life, even accidentally), but if I had three children by a woman, and all four of their lives (as well as mine) could be saved by me killing someone else's 10 year old son, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I think most parents on here would do the same. Yes, it would be an emotionally painful thing, something I would hate doing, but it boils down to the life of my children and their mother, or that boys life. Unless something is serioulsy wired WRONG inside you, your children's wellbeing should override just about everything else.

Jaime simply HAD TO ESCAPE. He had no other option. And he had already thought through every possible way of escaping, and he saw none, unless he could somehow lure his guard inside the stockade. And there was no reasonable way to lure the guard in without doing something completley shocking and baffling, something the guard wouldn't really be able to believe until he saw it up close.

And that is exactly what the killing of Alton did. The Karstark boy heard something going on, couldn't really see what it was, but probably thought it looked like exactly what it was: Jaime beating his own cousin. "But that couldn't be," the guard must have thought, "that would just be impossible." So the guard came in (foolishly, yes) by himself to investigate what the hell really happened, distracting himself from Jaime to pay attention to this shuddering body laying on the ground, giving Jaime the opening to act, and to escape.

One of the ongoing themes in the books for Jaime Lannister (as I see it) is that to do the right thing, sometimes you have to do the wrong thing. That old "the ends justify the means" and "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" dilemnas. In Jaime's case, it was escaping justifies killing a distant cousin, no matter how much you sympathize with and understand his hero worship of you, and the good of the kingdom and the Lannister family outweighed the good of one minor member of the Lannister family. To Jaime's point of view, keeping Joffrey on the throne means the Lannisters are in charge of the kingdom, and to him, that is a good thing (remember, at this point, Jaime hasn't really seen how nasty Joffrey has become, yes he knows the boy was foolish and had Ned Stark executed, but he hasn't seen Joffrey's complete decent into Aerys II-like madness yet.

Jaime truly loves his sister at this point still, and loves his (secret) children by her, and loves his brother Tyrion, as well as his father (though I would say he is a bit intimidated by Tywin as well). Yes, it might be arrogant of him to believe that his escape would ensure their side winning the war (hell, the books kind of back him up on this as he pretty much brings an end to the War of Five Kings himself later on, which brings the suffering of even the smallfolk to an end, at least for now). But when you are a man like Jaime, you have every reason to believe you really will make a difference in the war.

If you are warrior, and thus someone already willing to kill and possible die for your sides cause, then yes, you will kill whom you have to to ensure your side wins.

What Jaime did, no matter how repulsive it may be to us, was done out of loyalty and love, a sacrifice that was necessary for his King and family.

Next thing I know, y'all are gonna damn Jaime for killing Aerys II Targaryen, the Mad King. It was the right thing to do (as Obi Wan Kenobi said “from a certain point of view," yet it was the wrong thing to do from a different point of view.

It's all shades of grey folks, and all depends on your point of view

Jaime simply did what he had to do, whether he liked what he was doing or not. He was practical and he was logical. And it worked (at least for a while).

#20 ipsuel

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:08 PM

woops totally forgot...

HUGE CON: The Quaithe tattoing party... Seriously? Uh... this character (for me) was taken from mysterious/possibly shady to ridiculous and comical in that scene... seemed so forced: Hey audience... look at this woman wearing a mask and creating cool tattoos--ohhhh that means she is mysterious... it was (imo) just BAD

Edited by ipsuel, 15 May 2012 - 04:10 PM.