Queer Eye for the White Knight

[Winter's Knight]

As most of you know, I had started a light hearted thread yesterday about Ned and King Bob's repressed romance.The thread grew alarmingly quickly and while we all did our best to be inoffensive, a few posters pointed out that perhaps a serious topic discussing the depiction of gender norms in the books and how the heteronormativity prevalent adversely affects both the men and women of Westoros,

Lummel brought up the example of Randyll Tarly and how his obsession with traditional gender roles ended up traumatising his firstborn son. In contrast, the Tyrells seem to be fully supportive of their might-as-well-be-out third son.

It may also be interesting to discuss the dearth of lesbians in the story.

[oakenhelm]

I think Randyll is just an a-hole. Since maester are males and have a use outside of using swords, he could have prepared Sam for Oldtown, rather than a hunting accident.

[Istari]

Randyll thought that a being a Maester is beneath the Tarly name ...

[Thallus]

What lesbians are there in the story?

I can only recall slaves (who as slaves have sex when commanded/needed) and clear bisexuals.

The Tarly episode is also more about an heir than a manly man. You really can't compare Loras and Sam, Loras inherits nothing, Sam inherits everything and Sam has no chutzpah while Loras is full of piss an vinegar.

Gender roles are irrelevant to the two, its their ability to survive and profit in a brutal world that their families care about. Sam could have been sent by Randyll to the Maesters, but that throws away the Tarly house.

[oakenhelm]

Randyll thought that a being a Maester is beneath the Tarly name ...

Regardless of his opinion, it is still a traditional (and respected by most) role of males. That is my point

[Ice Turtle]

The thing about the Tyrells is that the real power behind the House are women. Women are much more comfortable with homosexual men than other men.

And...are we sure Mace knows? He just seems as exactly the guy that would be ignorant about it.

[Lady Lea]

The thing about the Tyrells is that the real power behind the House are women. Women are much more comfortable with homosexual men that other men.

And...are we sure Mace knows? He just seems as exactly the guy that would be ignorant about it.

I never got the impression Mace knew.

Anyway, people often talk about Dany being bi but I don't see it. I think she is straight. Just because you're straight doesn't mean you can enjoy other things as well... and she keeps thinking about Drogo. And Dany never seemed to bothered about sleeping with ladies. I guess heteronormativity wasn't something she really thought about.

Is Margaery bi/lesbian? Cersei seems to think so at one point doesn't she?

[Bushido]

About Loras?? Yes,both Mace and his grandmother know.

[The Last Reyne]

Like all worlds, in Westeros there are people who accept that not everyone fits into neat stereotypes and those who are not as flexible. For every Randyll Tarly there is a Lord Selwyn who accepts his daughter's no stereotypical role choice (and possibly sexuallity). Dorne is very accepting which is not surprising considering its origins. Where Tywin expected his children to fulfill gender specific roles, Ned began to accept that Arya may not have been destined to fulfill a stereotypical role like her sister. And where Lord Mace Tyrell seems to be willing to sell his daughter to highest bidder you Balon Greyjoy training his daughter to be strong and indepedent and to take what she wishes. So you see this world is not really so different.

[mythsandstuff]

Yay! Thanks for starting this. Re: lack of lesbians, this is is especially troubling in the context of Cersei's lesbian experience being about power dynamics (and kind of rapey and full of penis-envy, which, really) and Dany's about "replacing" a man (and then finding the replacement unsatisfactory).

This is in contrast to the gay men, who are (Loras, Connington) allowed to be in love.

I can't decide if GRRM's decision to cast Brienne, a butch female, as a heterosexual represents an attempt to subvert one stereotype or reinforce another (an ugly girl in love with a gay man?

[Lyanna Stark]

I can't decide if GRRM's decision to cast Brienne, a butch female, as a heterosexual represents an attempt to subvert one stereotype or reinforce another (an ugly girl in love with a gay man?

If it helps, Brienne's feelings for Jaime Lannister seem far stronger and more real.

Gender roles are irrelevant to the two, its their ability to survive and profit in a brutal world that their families care about. Sam could have been sent by Randyll to the Maesters, but that throws away the Tarly house.

Randyll Tarly is one of the worst sexists in the series though, as displayed by his behaviour towards Brienne where he basically tells her she's begging to be raped by not behaving like a proper lady and stick to that confined gender role. He's also rude to Cat for the same reason, and Cat bites back at him.

Tarly's behaviour towards his son is also completely inexcusable. Sam becoming a Maester would have changed nothing for House Tarly since Dickon is heir. It really is just Tarly engaging is stupid macho posturing. He also tortures his own son for the single reason of him not meeting Tarly's definitions of what a man should be.

[Thallus]

I never got the impression Mace knew.

Anyway, people often talk about Dany being bi but I don't see it. I think she is straight. Just because you're straight doesn't mean you can enjoy other things as well... and she keeps thinking about Drogo. And Dany never seemed to bothered about sleeping with ladies. I guess heteronormativity wasn't something she really thought about.

Is Margaery bi/lesbian? Cersei seems to think so at one point doesn't she?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports#Kinsey_scale

No, Dany and Cersei are not 0s

[Arionis]

Maybe Ellaria Sand is bisexual? Or maybe she just enjoys to experiment... :leer:

[Dacie]

In the case of Arya and Loras, I wonder if this has more to do with the fact they are the younger children. Loras has two older brothers, both grown men, who will inherit before him. He nor Arya would be seen as a prized marriage prospect the way Robb, Sansa, and Willas are. I think in this case the younger children are probably indulged a bit by their fathers who have a large family with more than enough prospects of securing succession, heirs, and marriage alliances.

ETA: I'm not saying Arya is a lesbian, just that she doesn't follow the traditional female customs.

[brashcandy]

I think GRRM's portrayal of Brienne is meant to call into the question the rigid gender roles and norms in Westerosi society. Brienne's appearance - as a stereotypical butch female - does not negate the legitimacy of her desire for Renly or Jaime Lannister, but of course, society mocks her for her lack of femininity, and then compounds the insult by deeming her unworthy for a romantic relationship. She's also excluded from the boys' club of knights and warriors, and really has to carve a space for herself as a kind of outcast/freak.

[bloodymime]

The thing about the Tyrells is that the real power behind the House are women. Women are much more comfortable with homosexual men that other men.

And...are we sure Mace knows? He just seems as exactly the guy that would be ignorant about it.

"[Are Mace Tyrell and the Queen of Thorns aware of Loras's sexuality?]

Yes and yes."

http://www.westeros..../Month/2008/04/

Yay! Thanks for starting this. Re: lack of lesbians, this is is especially troubling in the context of Cersei's lesbian experience being about power dynamics (and kind of rapey and full of penis-envy, which, really) and Dany's about "replacing" a man (and then finding the replacement unsatisfactory).

This is in contrast to the gay men, who are (Loras, Connington) allowed to be in love.

I can't decide if GRRM's decision to cast Brienne, a butch female, as a heterosexual represents an attempt to subvert one stereotype or reinforce another (an ugly girl in love with a gay man?

"Q: Did you envision Brienne as an XXY?

A: She is supposed to be freakish. She was an answer to the bad fantasy cliche of warrior women"

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2005/11/

[MyrcellaHill]

Yay! Thanks for starting this. Re: lack of lesbians, this is is especially troubling in the context of Cersei's lesbian experience being about power dynamics (and kind of rapey and full of penis-envy, which, really) and Dany's about "replacing" a man (and then finding the replacement unsatisfactory).

This is in contrast to the gay men, who are (Loras, Connington) allowed to be in love.

I can't decide if GRRM's decision to cast Brienne, a butch female, as a heterosexual represents an attempt to subvert one stereotype or reinforce another (an ugly girl in love with a gay man?

I was a little disappointed that Connington's feelings for Rhaegar weren't made more explicit even though it was his own POV. We only really saw Renly and Loras through the eyes of other people but I don't think GRRM needed to keep the hints so subtle when it was Connington himself thinking about his lost love.

[Thallus]

Tarly's behaviour towards his son is also completely inexcusable. Sam becoming a Maester would have changed nothing for House Tarly since Dickon is heir. It really is just Tarly engaging is stupid macho posturing. He also tortures his own son for the single reason of him not meeting Tarly's definitions of what a man should be.

You're being misleading on purpose here. Tarly tortures his son because Sam doesn't meet the definition of what Tarly believe SAM should be. It has nothing to do with manliness, it has to do with the mantle of responsibility that he believes a first born heir must undertake. If Tarly had an unruly daughter, there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't do the same. His methods are cruel, but they are inspired by the idea of necessity, not of gender cis-heteronormativity or whatever inequality lurks in every word and period in any book when you're looking for it.

Tarly isn't mean to Sam because Sam is womanly or gay, Tarly is mean to Sam because Sam won't take up the responsibilities that he must, and makes no real effort to prepare himself to do so.

[mythsandstuff]

I think GRRM's portrayal of Brienne is meant to call into the question the rigid gender roles and norms in Westerosi society. Brienne's appearance - as a stereotypical butch female - does not negate the legitimacy of her desire for Renly or Jaime Lannister, but of course, society mocks her for her lack of femininity, and then compounds the insult by deeming her unworthy for a romantic relationship. She's also excluded from the boys' club of knights and warriors, and really has to carve a space for herself as a kind of outcast/freak.

Yeah, I get that. GRRM gets points for that, especially her relationship with Jamie. And this is certainly not something (calling into question of gender roles) he does only with Brienne (see also Arya, spear wives, Sarella, hell, most of the women in the books - you could argue he does this with the femme girls too). Part of what bothers me is the stereotype mentioned above, and part of it is that the only male that clearly presents as femme (Varys, of the slippered feet, powder, and perfume (which may well be another form of disguise for him - he does use them to great effect)) has been, literally, emasculated, and that leaves the text without a way to explore what it means to gender identify in a nontraditional way and sexually identify another, except through a masculine (butch) identity.

Couple that with the fact that we have no lesbians, thus far, and it feels really problematic.

Put another way: dudes are allowed to be gay, cause everybody wants a penis, but the ladies can't be lesbians, cause everybody wants a penis. Even ladies who want to be dudes want penis, and dudes who have lost their penises want more. Basically, the text is queer-friendly only insofar as that queerness involves the desire to have a penis, one way or the other.

ETA:

I don't know what Varys wants, though I don't think I'm wrong in suggesting he might like to have back that which was taken from him.

[ermireallydontcare]

Talking about lesbians in the series, I think someone already posted the scale of sexuality. The point of that is that very few people are completely hetro or completely gay, therefore you can have sex with girls on occasion (like Dany & Cersei) and still consider yourself straight rather than bi, which I think is the case with those 2, and I would say there is no truly lesbian characters in the series that we know of.