Rereading Tyrion II (AGOT-ACOK)

[Ragnorak]

Some thoughts on the power dynamics:

While Cersei is in awe of Tywin and has a far more pure admiration of him than Tyrion she seems to be in her own form of power struggle with him. This will develop over the next two books but I found this interesting

“He cannot do that. Not without Joff’s consent.”

“I am Joffrey’s regent, and I sent him a royal command!”

“I do not require your help. It was our father’s presence that I commanded.”

The first comes in front of the whole Small Council and Cersei notes that Tywin ought to obey Joffrey yet with Tyrion it is all Cersei-- I commanded. Still there is a significant difference between the way Cersei acts as Regent for Joffrey and for Tommen later on. Joffrey takes off Ned's head and he's merely "willful" while Tommen can't even issue a royal decree to get himself a kitten much less get out of eating beets. I got the impression that Cersei sees Joffrey's status as King as a means to exercise power over Tywin. I'm not sure how much of that delusion survives this chapter intact but there is an odd family power triangle involving Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey that we first glimpse here.

We also see a bit of difference between Varys and Littlefinger. It occured to me here that Varys has also armored himself in courtesy much like Sansa. He is also brilliantly noncommittal

“How kind of Lord Tywin. And his scaling wax is such a lovely shade of gold.” Varys gave the seal a close inspection. “It gives every appearance of being genuine.”

His statement lends credibility to Tyrion (and from his visit later we know he has plans for Tyrion being Hand) but it still leaves open the possibility of Cersei declaring it a forgery. He has his bases covered regardless of the outcome. Varys never leaves himself open to be caught. Compare that to Littlefinger who knows he's just been caught (thought doesn't seem to care.) LF opens with a taunt to Tyrion

“Please,” he told them, “do let me be of service, in whatever small way I can.”

I think LF underestimates Tyrion here. Later Tyrion will remove Slynt and claim the Goldcloaks for his own and almost gets LF to jump the gun on his schemes to marry Lysa with his fake Myrcella offer to Sweetrobin. LF's survival here is a matter of luck and circumstance rather than skill. His primary defense is that he isn't seen as a threat without any army of his own and he's "needed" for finding coin. Lannisters are not exactly known for staying their hands for want of gold.

“Fascinating,” said Littlefinger. “And all the more reason I’d sooner bed down in the dungeon.”

Perhaps you’ll get that wish, Tyrion thought

It is Tyrion's distraction with his Cersei conflict that prevents LF's dagger lie from hitting a wall-- the Wall with Slynt, four walls of the Black Cells like Pycelle, or the wall of the Red Keep next to Ned. I think this illustrates the gambling nature of LF vs the grand master chess style of Varys.

“I hope Father did not send you all this way to plague us with history lessons,”

“Four?” Littlefinger raised an eyebrow. “Did the Hands before Lord Arryn meet some dire end in the Tower? I’m afraid I was too young to pay them much mind.”

Apparently LF does not concern himself with lessons of history prior to his own existence. Not a positive sign for his future welfare in a book with so much emphasis on history repeating itself.

I think Tyrion actually fired the opening shot in the subtle word play that he and Varys exchange.

“A problem I will never need face,” Tyrion said. “I’m terrified of my enemies, so I kill them all.”

Varys giggled. “Will you take some wine with us, my lord?”

This also seems important but I haven't thought of exactly why yet.

Through the cloudy panes of the narrow window, he could make out the Great Sept of Baelor crowning Visenya’s Hill

I suspect it is a Tysha/Shae thing and his cloudy and narrow viewed perceptions certainly apply there. I'm not sure what to make of faith crowning the warrior sister's hill or if the meaning is simply that he can't see the hills named for Rhaenys and Aegon-- the one's with the Dragon Pit (Dany) and the Iron Throne (Aegon.)

[Ragnorak]

Lummel so insightfully pointed out that this chapter is all about power and we see Tyrion going about and carving out some of that power for himself. I think an important question to ask is "What is Tyrion's envisioned end state?" For Varys we now know his end state is putting Aegon on the throne. Littlefinger's end state is Littlefinger. He seems to have a certain addiction to the game and a bit of a revenge agenda but still he's entirely self-centered without any specific goals compared to the other players. Robb, Stannis, Renly an Tywin all have fairly clear end states as well.

Unlike these other players I don't think Tyrion has acknowledged to himself any long term agenda. He seems to be operating under his Tyrion II GoT statement to Jon regarding doing what he can in service to his House, but he lacks a long term or wider agenda that these other players have. Eliminating Cersei's power and establishing his own is short term and a means not really an end. His efforts are designed to keep Joffrey on the throne which isn't really high on his personal priority list. What does he think will happen when Tywin returns to KL? It seems he just doesn't think about it at all.

His time as Hand is really about Tyrion the Player but I think one of the most notable things about Tyrion throughout this book is that he hasn't actually defined for himself what victory looks like. Shae really does ask the all important question:

“So what will you do, m’lord, now that you’re the Hand of the King?” Shae asked him as he cupped that warm sweet flesh.

“Something Cersei will never expect,” Tyrion murmured softly against her slender neck. “I’ll do… justice.”

Justice is actually the very same thing Ned sought as Hand which is an interesting parallel and also plays into the Tyrion sympathy angle. Is justice really Tyrion's end state? Is there some other agenda in operation that he either acknowledges or not? Just something to keep in mind as we move through these chapters.

[evita mgfs]

This is part I of the Tyrion Post for ACoK. I found lots of similarities between Homer and Martin - using references from, primarily, Odysseus with the Cyclops and Tyrion in #1 POV. Since I missed GoT, I also flashback a time or two.

Continuing with my Tyrion observations regarding similarities between Martin’s epic dwarf in ACoK and Homer’s epic hero in the Iliad and Odyssey, my premises are that both personalities are sometimes underestimated by others due to their stature, and, at times, their demeanor. For example, Antenor discloses that when sitting down, “Odysseus was the more lordly [than Menelaus]” (3.) Likewise, Tyrion says in his first POV in ACoK that he sits “a chair better than a horse” (55). That is, when Tyrion is ensconced in a chair, he is every bit as lordly as any other, for a chair becomes a great leveler for kings and princes who are vertically challenged, like both Tyrion and Odysseus.

In the case of Homer’s ‘sacker of cities’, who lacks the stereotypical physical attributes normally associated with a war hero and a king [i.e. by direct comparison to red-haired Menelaus, sort of a literary foil to Odysseus], Odysseus is the antithesis of such. With the reputation that precedes him, perhaps hosts whom he visits expect a man of greater size, with muscles and a handsome face. Helen and Antenor seemingly defend Odysseus’ unheroic appearance by emphasizing that he is oft underestimated on his looks alone: . “resourceful Odysseus . . . would just stand and stare down, / eyes fixed on the ground beneath him . . . /Yes, you would call him a sullen man, and a fool likewise. / But when he let the great voice go from his chest, and the words came out . . . then no other mortal / man beside could stand up against Odysseus. Then we / wondered less beholding Odysseus’ outward appearance” (Book III.).

However, Helen and Antenor warn that when Odysseus speaks, people are apt to overlook his downcast eyes and sullen demeanor.

Likewise, many underestimate Tyrion due to his physical aspect. But like the Ithacan King, Tyrion’s intellect, his resourcefulness, his skilled deceptions, his artifice, his ability to manipulate others, his insight into human nature, and his habit of speaking “winning words” are on a par with the Argive who will conceive the brilliant treachery of the Trojan Horse [inspired by his biggest fan, Athene], who will lead the Achaeans into victorious battle over the ‘partying’ Trojans by infiltrating enemy lines, and who will see the downfall of King Priam’s kingdom in smoke and fire. [Homer’s great hero even dashes baby Astyanax’ head against the walls of Troy and tosses him over – bringing to mind what happened to Aegon, or the replacement babe. Somehow I think Odysseus and Tyrion would have made sure they had the ‘right’ babe before tossing, yes?)

Ser Mandon Moore treats Tyrion as if he is a dullard when Tyrion attempts to gain access to Cersei during a council meeting in order to deliver a letter from Tywin. Moore irritates Tyrion when he speaks slowly to him as if he is mentally challenged or hearing impaired. By speaking down to Tyrion, Moore discloses several possibilities;

1. His misinformed opinion of Tyrion lacking wit commands him to speak to the dwarf as if he is a hopeless case unable to comprehend without enunciating each word;
   
2. He exercises control of the situation by denying Tryion access to Cersei, following orders, of course, thereby attempting to illicit a response from Tyrion that will cause the dwarf to embarrass himself by begging admittance instead of demanding access and using his authority;
   
3. Tyrion might lose his temper, and cause an unpleasant scene and eventually “give up”.
   

Moore may be able to ‘throw his weight around’ with the little lion of Lannister, but Tyrion wins the day by remaining level-headed and controlling his temper, which allows readers a glimpse into Tyrion’s insight into human nature; i.e., he realizes that by reacting to and treating Moore hostilely, he will gain only further ridicule and possible future torment from Moore, and likely others who will and do behave towards Tyrion in the same fashion.

When Tyrion refuses to engage Moore in an argument, Tyrion reveals his cleverness. He knows no good can come of it. Moreover, Tyrion displays his command of language and his sharp wit through his spirited and humorous remarks to Moore. For example, Moore says to Tyrion, “Her Grace left orders, the council in session is not to be disturbed” (53). Tyrion responds, “I would be only a small disturbance, ser” (53).

Presenting his paper shield, “a letter from my father, Lord Tywin Lannister, the Hand of the King. There is his seal” (53). Tyrion knows full well that by referencing his dad, he is adding a threat that if the guard does not admit him, Moore will have to answer to Tywin, not a pleasant fate.

With Moore, Tyrion makes himself “smile” – well, he knows a smile may catch a foe off guard, or even annoy him – but it is not necessarily in his nature to be thus diplomatic; Tyrion is playing nice for his audience.

When Tyrion pointedly mentions his clansmen allies, Tyrion issues a guarded threat to Moore; that is, if he doesn’t get in, Moore might very well meet the fate of “Ser Vardis Egen . . . who was captain of Lord Arryn’s household guard” (84). Tyrion’s resourcefulness gains him access to Cersei: “A small victory . . . but sweet”? (54).

For Odysseus, learning to control his need to boast as well as his temper are hard earned lessons, for Odysseus creates a fatal blunder when he departs the land of the Cyclopes. In the Odyssey of Homer, he cannot hold his tongue, so proud is he of besting Polyphemus by blinding him, thereby allowing his party to escape the cave by hiding under sheep. Even though Odysseus has earlier deceived Polyphemus by convincing him that Odysseus’ name is “No One”, when victorious, Odysseus abandons his clever ploy to boast:

‘So, Cyclops, no weak coward it was whose crew

You bent to devour there in your vaulted cave –

You with your brute force! Your filthy crimes

Came down on your head, you shameless cannibal,

Daring to eat your guest in your own house –

So Zeus and the other gods have paid you back!’ (9.531-536)

So angry is Polyphemus at Odysseus, he rips off the peak of a towering crag,

he heaved it

so hard the boulder landed just in front of our dark prow

and a huge swell reared up as the rock went plunging under –

a tidal wave from the open sea (9.538-541).

As Odysseus orders his crew to row away to escape “grim death”, then Odysseus foolishly “began to taunt the Cyclops” (9.548), even though his men beg Odysseus to check his temper – to calm himself. But Odysseus does not heed his men. Even though

They begged

. . . They could not bring my fighting spirit round.

I called back with another burst of anger,

‘Cyclops –

If any man on the face of the earth should ask you who blinded you, shamed you so – say Odysseus,

Raider of cities he gouged out your eye,

Laertes’ son who makes his home in Ithaca!’ (9.558-563)

Odysseus, when giving into anger, announces his name and address, which bodes no good for him.

Cyclops answers by saying a prophet once warned him that someday he’d be blinded by one Odysseus:

‘But I always looked for a handsome giant

Man to cross my path,

Some fighter clad in power like armor plate, but now,

Look what a dwarf, a spineless good-for-nothing,

Stuns me with wine, then gouges out my eye!

Come here, Odysseus, let me give you a guest-gift

And urge Poseidon the earthquake god to speed you home.

I am his son and he claims to be my father, true,

And he himself will hear me if he pleases- ’

Even then, Odysseus cannot resist a parting shot –

‘heal you!

. . . ‘Would to god I could strip you

of life and breath and ship you down to the House of Death

as surely as no one will ever heal your eye,

Not even your earthquake god himself!’ (9.580-583).

But Polyphemus prays to his father:

‘Hear me –

Poseidon . . .

grant that Odysseus, raider of cities,

. . . never reaches home. Or if he’s fated to see

his own people once again and reach his well-built house

and his native country, let him come home late

and come a broken man – all shipmates lost,

alone in a stranger’s ship –

and let him find a world of pain at home!’ (9.585-595).

Poseidon hears Polyphemus’ prayer. And before Odysseus arrives home on a Phaeacian ship, he must learn some self-control – a trait Tyrion seems to be well on the road to master– maybe because he was not treated as the king of “twists and turns.” I do find it rather pointed that Polyphemus calls Odysseus dwarf – although to him he is small, just as Tyrion is a dwarf to others around him in King’s Landing, and to Tyrion, others are giants.

Odysseus’s journey home parallels a similar journey Tyrion is on – but I am not allowed to mention it. As well as Tyrion’s journey to reclaim his wife – like Odysseus wanting to return to Penelope. These I can explore later when we get there.

More to come – I didn’t want my post to be too long, so I divided it into sections.

If I am doing this wrong, message me. I am still new at this and have already misunderstood acceptable content of the posts. :blushing:

Thanks, Butterbumps - for your help. :bowdown:

[Silverin]

Since it is a reread thread I just want to say first how much my opinion changed about tyrion compared to my first read, since that is revelant, and one of the main reasons of rereads.

The first time I read the way tyrion was in ACoK seemed to me like a true winner, I looked past all the little things that were pointing that he might not be as powerful as he thinks he is.

For example, it will be later but at first time I didn'T pay attention to the antler men, even forgotten who they are. I only noticed it later that he was compeletly played by Varys and he didn'T even got a clue. In that regard the fact that in this chapter after he feels all so powerful, there stands Varys with Shae, is just so important. And it sows that while tyrion can outplay Cersei and Co, but he can't outplay Varys.

ANd that quote about who holds the power, the man who signs the document or the one who whispers in his ear. For example in the case of the Atler Men it was tyrion who "signed" their fate, but it was Varys who whispered it in his ear. I know I know, it comes later. Sorry.

Now knowing what his fate will be and that it won'T be such a big victory as it seemed, it is really interesting to compare him to Ned, the previous Hand as others did in this thread, since they fate weren't that different.

Ned's fail mainly was because he went against Cersei (and telling her his plan) and betrayed by LF. Although he was supposed to be held as a prisoner and later exchange as a hostage and take the black, Joffrey executed him (and who knows who whisperred to him, LF? or Varys?.)

And as much as a good player tyrion seems his fate is very similar. He was set up by LF, using his bad relationship with Cersei, and his own stupid mouth. He was supposed to take the black (or executed, for those who don' believe tywin). The reason he survived was because Jaime with the help of Varys saved him. But we can discuss this later.

I don' have that much time, but to those that are interesting the LF-tyrion, Varys-tyrion clashes are interesting to see and analise.

Another one, as I said the tyron never recieved love claims are not true. In this chapter we see Myrcela and Tommen unconditionally loving him, and compeletly accepting him for who he is. Now we still don't know how much what he sais or thinks he thinks seriously. SOme times he has really dark thoughts but doesn'T act on them (helping Cat), but other times he does act on those (he sais he was fantasiing killing tywin and we know he did). His thoughts about the kids later are about more like how to use them as pawns against Cersei (I don'T remember all of his thoughts so it can be I missed some), which doesn't show him as a very greatful man (and if I remember correctly in ADwD when he lists who he misses he doesn't list them.). But we still didn't see him actually actively doing it. So we will see...

But again, Myrcella, Tommen - tyrion relationship, his thoughts about them is another one that is worth activiely looking for, since it can happen that he will have to decide at one point wether to support Dany/ Aegon and his revenge or either of the kids.

[Woman of War]

Great post, Evita! I'd like it ten times. Oh, how I loved the character of Odysseus when I read the children's edition at eight and I have always liked him since then!

[Winter's Knight]

Since it is a reread thread I just want to say first how much my opinion changed about tyrion compared to my first

Another one, as I said the tyron never recieved love claims are not true. In this chapter we see Myrcela and Tommen unconditionally loving him, and compeletly accepting him for who he is.

This reminds me-for all that Cersei is supposed to have always hated Tyrion, she certainly hasn't tried to keep her children away from him.

[Lummel]

...Tyrion seems both messenger and message in this chapter. He carries a literal message by way of the letter to the small council and Cersei from Tywin. And Tyrion himself is a messege to them from Tywin as well. Using Tyrion as a substitute or surrogate for Tywin tells them that Tywin doesn't think much of them or their recent activities. Tywin knows how Cersei will react to Tyrion. It sends a powerfully disapproving message to her in particular.

Some thoughts on the power dynamics:

...

The first comes in front of the whole Small Council and Cersei notes that Tywin ought to obey Joffrey yet with Tyrion it is all Cersei-- I commanded. Still there is a significant difference between the way Cersei acts as Regent for Joffrey and for Tommen later on. Joffrey takes off Ned's head and he's merely "willful" while Tommen can't even issue a royal decree to get himself a kitten much less get out of eating beets. I got the impression that Cersei sees Joffrey's status as King as a means to exercise power over Tywin. I'm not sure how much of that delusion survives this chapter intact but there is an odd family power triangle involving Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey that we first glimpse here...

Mmmm. The power dynamic is fascinating. I suppose it points back to the riddle the King is in charge formally, but it's the grandfather as pater familias who is laying down the law here. Family, kin trumps king.

There's no suggestion that it was ever Joffrey or Cersei's idea to kill The Ned or to dump Barristan, they just followed along with other people's suggestions, so much for kingly authority! At least Tommen has programme for his rulership (even if it does involve banning the beetroot and owning kittens).

...I think an important question to ask is "What is Tyrion's envisioned end state?" For Varys we now know his end state is putting Aegon on the throne. Littlefinger's end state is Littlefinger. He seems to have a certain addiction to the game and a bit of a revenge agenda but still he's entirely self-centered without any specific goals compared to the other players. Robb, Stannis, Renly an Tywin all have fairly clear end states as well.

Unlike these other players I don't think Tyrion has acknowledged to himself any long term agenda. He seems to be operating under his Tyrion II GoT statement to Jon regarding doing what he can in service to his House, but he lacks a long term or wider agenda that these other players have. Eliminating Cersei's power and establishing his own is short term and a means not really an end. His efforts are designed to keep Joffrey on the throne which isn't really high on his personal priority list. What does he think will happen when Tywin returns to KL? It seems he just doesn't think about it at all.

His time as Hand is really about Tyrion the Player but I think one of the most notable things about Tyrion throughout this book is that he hasn't actually defined for himself what victory looks like. Shae really does ask the all important question:

Justice is actually the very same thing Ned sought as Hand which is an interesting parallel and also plays into the Tyrion sympathy angle. Is justice really Tyrion's end state? Is there some other agenda in operation that he either acknowledges or not? Just something to keep in mind as we move through these chapters.

I agree about the long term objective. A long time in the future Tyrion will mention inheriting Casterly Rock to Tywin. Is this really his objective this early and is he just hiding it from himself or does he over the course of what is to come believe that he is worthy of it?

Justice is a great word, but what does justice mean for Tyrion? My idea was that justice was for Tyrion a way to solve Varys' riddle. But justice can be vague to, justice for whom? Is what is just for the Lannister, perceived as justice for the rest of the realm? Is Tyrion someone who can deliever Justice? A Lannister always pays his debts - but can he give impartial justice? Marillion's fingers probably found Tyrion's justice a little rough... :)

...Continuing with my Tyrion observations regarding similarities between Martin’s epic dwarf in ACoK and Homer’s epic hero in the Iliad and Odyssey, my premises are that both personalities are sometimes underestimated by others due to their stature, and, at times, their demeanor. For example, Antenor discloses that when sitting down, “Odysseus was the more lordly [than Menelaus]” (3.) Likewise, Tyrion says in his first POV in ACoK that he sits “a chair better than a horse” (55). That is, when Tyrion is ensconced in a chair, he is every bit as lordly as any other, for a chair becomes a great leveler for kings and princes who are vertically challenged, like both Tyrion and Odysseus...

Yes the way you put it there does seem to be something to be said for seeing ASOIAF as an epic, even if the gods are rather shy for a change, we have ambigious heroes who sacrifice children, receive messages from the otherworld and who clash in dubious battle...

So if Mandon Moore is the cyclops - then in future he's just out for revenge then ;) and while he's on his father's element too :)

...Ned's fail mainly was because he went against Cersei (and telling her his plan) and betrayed by LF. Although he was supposed to be held as a prisoner and later exchange as a hostage and take the black, Joffrey executed him (and who knows who whisperred to him, LF? or Varys?.)

And as much as a good player tyrion seems his fate is very similar. He was set up by LF, using his bad relationship with Cersei, and his own stupid mouth. He was supposed to take the black (or executed, for those who don' believe tywin). The reason he survived was because Jaime with the help of Varys saved him. But we can discuss this later...

Welcome Silverin,

Yes I think we get this same situation repeated with The Ned in Kings Landing, Daenerys in Meereen and Tyrion in Kings landing. The person in a white hat rides into this wild west situation, in one way or another ends up at the mercy of the black hats and ends up leaving town a failure.

The general message seems to be that it's not enough to have good intentions, intelligence, skill or even dragons. One person on their own can not be a success in westeros. It's about the networks and structures of power too. Aragorn in GRRM's version can not single handedly save gondor. I feel this equips us with some healthy cyncism about the incoming Aegon, but also unease about the possibility of a happy ending for any part of the kingdom. Certainly there aren't easy answers in GRRM world, but at first Tyrion looks to be fairly successful.

[Silverin]

There's no suggestion that it was ever Joffrey or Cersei's idea to kill The Ned or to dump Barristan, they just followed along with other people's suggestions, so much for kingly authority! At least Tommen has programme for his rulership (even if it does involve banning the beetroot and owning kittens).

He is a visionary OK? And he would be the best king ever. I won'T give up until the very last word of the very last book! Beside if everyone would have kittens, people would be less fustrated (seriously tyrion needs one, why didn't he even had a pet?(no, Penny does not count)), I read in an article once, so that would make the people in the Kingdom hapier. About beetroot, I guess he realised the beetroot maffia is getting way too strong, gotta make a move before it is too late. Sorry a little went OFF, but I cannot not comment on Tommen...

(I mean when I was a kid that was basically what I wanted too. Having cute pets, and banning food I don'T like.)

But I too am thinking that it was Varys, or/and LF who were whispering.

By the way do we know anything how they see each other? Do they work together, know/suspect anything? Both of them want chaos, maybe they are aware of that? So that is why they don'T thouch each other yet, since their goals seems to be similar? Ok sorry OFF, but in tyrions chapter we do see the KL politic so....

I agree about the long term objective. A long time in the future Tyrion will mention inheriting Casterly Rock to Tywin. Is this really his objective this early and is he just hiding it from himself or does he over the course of what is to come believe that he is worthy of it?

That seems likely. We know tyrion does not give much credit to Kevan he sees him just a Tywin yes men. Despite we later see that he too is very smart, and careful, there was a reason why Varys killed him, after all he started to improve the situation at KL. So that is definietly some misreading from tyrions part. Again not that perfect at reading humans abilities as some thinks.

He might thought he proved tywin his worth, tywin even said him he would have done the same, he basically approved of tyrion (or in his eyes it seemed like him, I guess we should dscuss it when we reach that point?).

SInce tyrion dismissed of for example Kevan's abilities, he was maybe thinking that no one but him has enough ability to follow into tywins footsteps.

Rereading hit me, what if tywin sent him to KL, because he was aware that in a starving city just before the war many unpopular decisions will have to be made. So he sen tyrion who's reputation doesn'T matter to him that much.

I mean after reading ADwD we know that Kevan is also rather capable to do the job.

Justice is a great word, but what does justice mean for Tyrion? My idea was that justice was for Tyrion a way to solve Varys' riddle. But justice can be vague to, justice for whom? Is what is just for the Lannister, perceived as justice for the rest of the realm? Is Tyrion someone who can deliever Justice? A Lannister always pays his debts - but can he give impartial justice? Marillion's fingers probably found Tyrion's justice a little rough... :)

Well he comes from a house where "justice" is killing all the Reynes and Tarbecks even the babies, making the lover of the Lord having a walk of shame, at the kidnapping of tyrion attacking Ned and slaining his men, and pillageging the Riverland.....

It is not like he learned the difference between justice and ridiculuosly big revenge...

So if Mandon Moore is the cyclops - then in future he's just out for revenge then ;) and while he's on his father's element too :)

Talking Odysseus, I remember not really liking him that much, I mean weren'T a lot of time the reason why he escaped, or succeded because Athena helped and favoured him? Not to mention the guy was sleping around on all the different islands while his wife faithfully was waiting for him for years. I remember thinking what the hell, just leave him. By the way I remember Odysseus was killed by his own son by Circe. (After that the son of Odysseus and Circe married Penelope and the son of Odysseus and Penelope married Circe...I remember that, thinking, .....Greeks....)

Welcome Silverin,

Welcome, I agree what you wrote there so I didn't quoted it.

[evita mgfs]

Silverin - Good post. Thanks so much for addressing my ideas.

:thumbsup:

All - good job. :thumbsup:

I just wanted to say that in my thesis, Tyrion is like Odysseus in many regards - the brains not the braun. I see Tyrion as the cunning strategist, "the man of twists and turns", "the man of many trials", "master of craft", "master improviser", "the great master of subtlety", "son of pain", to name a few stock epithets Homer attributes to Odysseus.

Cyclops represents a metaphor for all the ugly-on-the-inside, narrow minded, half-blind giants Tyrion comes across in his world.

I am not a man, and when I first read the book, I was idealistic and believed in undying love - a love that might separate a man and woman for 20 years with both being true. Maybe men could respond to a 20-year-long celebacy? They would know more than I.

I admire Penelope for keeping the faith and not falling in love with a suitor simply out of loneliness.

Now, jaded as I am, Odysseus' having sex with a goddess and enchantress does not bother me as much - he suffers dearly throughout his journey, although all his hardship he brings on himself. I figure he deserves to do the nasty on occasion before he gets home. After all, he never, ever loved anyone but Penelope. After 20 years gone, he doggedly tries to get home, even though King Alcinous offers him for wife his beautiful virgin daughter, nubile Nausicaa, before Alcinous even knows who he is. Odysseus could have lived like a King in Scheria, yet he begs to return to Ithaca because he pines for Penelope.

Tyrion certainly pines for Tysha throughout the novels in the same way Odysseus pines for Penelope- but that's for later.

I am covering the content from the Iliad and Odyssey, so the offspring Circe births are not part of that Homeric mythology; it's part of others.

I also hate the fact that the hero lies continuously, and is admired for it. Now I realize that to win wars, a little deception, purposefully meant, can mean life or death. Each side in war uses deceptive measures against its foe. My Greek teacher always emphasized Odysseus' lying - his skill at deceiving. I will be posting more on Tyrion's lies in POV#1 shortly.

Yes, that is a problem in comparing Odysseus with Tyrion. Athena loves and admires Odysseus, and she guards over him and his family throughout the epics. But lots of people, even today, assign blame and good fortune to their gods. I hear people say 'god dammit' as well as 'thank god!'

The rhapsodists who set the epics into words from the oral tradition around 700 BC (I think) recorded an accurate portrayal of a polytheistic society that truly believed their gods were a daily part of life, guiding every aspect of their day. So it is natural that Athene gets the credit for Odysseus' brilliance. Greeks in the epics believed great ideas came from the gods - that is why in war, the bard is always spared. A bard's gift was his engaging oral performance, and Odysseus is oft equated with a bard because of his "winning words".

As for Tyrion's Athene, I think he has metaphoric guardian angels, like Jaime, who has loved him throughout their lives (I can't add more yet without getting into other books).

Also, thanks for pointing out the Athene thing. :cool4:

[Fire Eater]

"Compared to the hospitality I enjoyed in the Vale of Arryn, drums, horseshit and fly bites are my favorite things."

Littlefinger laughed. "Well said Lannister. A man after my own heart."

Littlefinger is from the Vale in the Fingers, and I guess this hints at the disdain he shares for his humble home and beginnings.

And Chella told him that only cowards kill the vanquished.

Does this say something about a young Tywin when he dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks?

Cersei isn't delighted by Tyrion's presence, she never was but he points out the follies of her short reign as regent. Cersei was on top in the small council before Tyrion came, at least in her head.

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

Another one, as I said the tyron never recieved love claims are not true. In this chapter we see Myrcela and Tommen unconditionally loving him, and compeletly accepting him for who he is. Now we still don't know how much what he sais or thinks he thinks seriously. SOme times he has really dark thoughts but doesn'T act on them (helping Cat), but other times he does act on those (he sais he was fantasiing killing tywin and we know he did). His thoughts about the kids later are about more like how to use them as pawns against Cersei (I don'T remember all of his thoughts so it can be I missed some), which doesn't show him as a very greatful man (and if I remember correctly in ADwD when he lists who he misses he doesn't list them.). But we still didn't see him actually actively doing it. So we will see...

But again, Myrcella, Tommen - tyrion relationship, his thoughts about them is another one that is worth activiely looking for, since it can happen that he will have to decide at one point wether to support Dany/ Aegon and his revenge or either of the kids.

Nice observation, especially about his Cersei revenge eventually needing to be aimed at those children he seems to adore. Tommen and Myrcella weren't around when he was growing up but it does extend his more recent sense of family affection beyond just Jaime. Then later we learn Genna and his uncles were fond of him as well. So Tyrion does have some sense of family in the way the Starks do, just not with his father or mother.

This reminds me-for all that Cersei is supposed to have always hated Tyrion, she certainly hasn't tried to keep her children away from him.

I like observations like this. I tend to have very little Cersei sympathy so I'm less inclined to notice things like this.

Mmmm. The power dynamic is fascinating. I suppose it points back to the riddle the King is in charge formally, but it's the grandfather as pater familias who is laying down the law here. Family, kin trumps king.

There's no suggestion that it was ever Joffrey or Cersei's idea to kill The Ned or to dump Barristan, they just followed along with other people's suggestions, so much for kingly authority! At least Tommen has programme for his rulership (even if it does involve banning the beetroot and owning kittens).

I agree about the long term objective. A long time in the future Tyrion will mention inheriting Casterly Rock to Tywin. Is this really his objective this early and is he just hiding it from himself or does he over the course of what is to come believe that he is worthy of it?

Justice is a great word, but what does justice mean for Tyrion? My idea was that justice was for Tyrion a way to solve Varys' riddle. But justice can be vague to, justice for whom? Is what is just for the Lannister, perceived as justice for the rest of the realm? Is Tyrion someone who can deliever Justice? A Lannister always pays his debts - but can he give impartial justice? Marillion's fingers probably found Tyrion's justice a little rough... :)

<snip>

In Westeros it seems that family always trumps the King. They have 300 years of civil wars to show that isn't just a Lannister family value, but I do think it is a bit different with them. As you pointed out Tyrion countermands three royal orders in his first morning alone and everyone knows if Tywin sent him he can overrule the King. I also think Tywin is fairly unique in pondering a "harsh lesson" for a sitting King. Generally, in most families being King makes you pater familias. Here this is far from the case. Definitely a complicated family dynamic woven in with the power dynamic.

I'm toying with the idea that it is recognition from Tywin that Tyrion wants. When he asks for the Rock I think he specifically asks for Tywin to acknowledge or recognize him. I'd have to reread the passage to be certain but I think he's looking for Tywin's public acknowledgement as much or more so than the Rock itself. We'll see when we get there. I'm very curious to see how Tyrion's justice comes across this time around especially what he tells himself about that justice.

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - The image of the Sept of Baelor "crowing" Visenya's Hill stuck out to me as well. Visenya, the warrior sister to Aegon I, a feminine archetype (the Amazon) crowned with the male dominated realm sponsered religious institution and the situs of Ned's beheading. The beheading, which according to the High Septon, defiled the Great Sept's "holy" ground. The inn's cloudy glass panes obfuscate a "clear" vision of the hill and it's "crown." Throughout this chapter, it seems Tyrion is trying to avoid the fate of the Hands that came before him. Maybe this view has something to do with that.

Another thing that stuck out is the name of the inn: The Broken Anvil. Anvils provide the base upon which a smith with a hammer can shape metal. Consequently, the anvil is associated with the feminine; the hammer with the masculine. The broken anvil then suggests an injured feminine aspect. It may be a reference to Shae and her future with Tyrion and Tywin.

Finally, about "justice." It reminds me of the adage, "One man's meat is another man's poison."

[Lummel]

The Sept of Baelor might remind us of the justice that was meted out to Ned Stark. Or taking note of the centre of the faith from the perspective of the centre of royal power might be setting us up for Varys' riddle - it's an alternative source for political legitimacy after all.

The anvil would be associated with the Smith, an aspect of the seven, but also suggests industriousness and productivity. A broken anvil might then suggest the failure of the god, the failure of the power of work and industry, the impossibility of being productive. It's not a very optimistic symbol, but, hehe, reminds me of The Broken Drum in Pratchett.

The interesting thing about Tommen and Myrcella, or for that matter Aunt Genna's opinion is that we see none of this in Tyrion's POV (with the exception of Tyrion I AGOT) at this stage. From his point of view we only see the downside of his family relations.

[Axrendale]

- On Tyrion's intention to pursue "justice" as his initial course of action:

My take on this was not so much that it is a sign of Tyrion wanting to do justice for justice's sake, as it was a rather shrewd observation on his part of an avenue by which he can reduce his sister's power at the expense of his own. Cersei's brief and inglorious reign as regent up to this point has essentially been based on a long series of injustices - murders, executions, repressions, the rewarding of the unjust (ie. Janos Slynt), etc. By adopting a counter-policy of "justice" (having the heads removed from the walls, opening the gates of the city again, attempting to feed to populace, pursuing the punishment of criminals and traitors, getting rid of men like Slynt, etc) - which as Tyrion notes, is also the last thing that Cersei would expect him to do, so it has the bonus of keeping her off-balance - what he is really doing is supplanting her control over the government in favor of his own under the guise of something that is supposed to be the duty of the King's Hand anyway.

As far as Tyrion's long-term goals go, I think it is important to remember that Tyrion is only a stop-gap appointment as Hand, and he knows this. He was sent to act as a proxy for his father with a very specific mandate: to rule the city so that he can protect House Lannister's political interests while Tywin fights the war in the Riverlands. How he establishes his rule is effectively left up to him, the broad outlines of what he does with his power is not. The awareness must hang over him that as soon as his father returns to the city, he will lose all power - and this likely contributes to his determination that when that day comes, he should not be found to have failed in the task that his father gave to him.

[Ragnorak]

Love it Blisscraft. I'm easily seduced by Jungian takes on myths and stories.

The fate of Ned as Hand at the sept in the name of justice ties in quite well with Tyrion's stated goal. Tyrion has showed up to Kings Landing with Lannister wealth as Hand of the King. He later appoints a High Septon of his own choosing. He actually will possess all three aspects of power from Varys riddle including a small host of sellswords.

The Broken Anvil also reflects Tyrion's sympathy for broken things of which he seem to include himself. Septon Meribald has a whole speech on the aspect of the Smith that might prove enlightening. The broken industriousness and productivity is the current essence of KL, though Tyrion will also eventually save the city using the aspect of the Smith. I also think the idea of a Broken Anvil is a proper metaphor for Lannister power. They wield a big hammer but it only ever destroys. The anvil as a wounded feminine aspect also fits with both his mother dying in childbirth and Tysha.

In general the clouded and narrow view fits as well. Tyrion's ability to play the Game is often viewed as superior to Ned's. Effectively he is just as fixated on Cersei as Ned was and they are both undone through placing trust in LF to carry out an assignment where LF twists the purpose to his own ends and gets them imprisoned-- a clouded and narrow view of Ned's fate as Hand relative to his own.

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - If you are easily seduced by Jungian takes on myths and stories, you must be a cheap date. ;) Love your insights into these images. Yes, the anvil is another broken thing. :frown5:

Axrendale - Love your ideas about Cersei's string of injustices and Tyrion's use of "justice" to disarm her. Well done! One man's (or woman's) meat is another man's (or woman's) poison.

[Natalie_S]

I'm toying with the idea that it is recognition from Tywin that Tyrion wants. When he asks for the Rock I think he specifically asks for Tywin to acknowledge or recognize him. I'd have to reread the passage to be certain but I think he's looking for Tywin's public acknowledgement as much or more so than the Rock itself.

:agree:

I think he doesn't have long term plans for his being Hand because he knows that he won't be for long (as a matter of fact he's not even now... he's Deputy Hand or something like that).

His plan was to show Tywin how good at ruling he could be and how loyal he was to show him that he deserves to be his heir and to be proclamed so in public.

Later he says that he never asked because a part of him had always known that Tywin would never do that: again, rationalty vs emotions. He knows that his wish is hopeless, yet still fights for it.

[butterbumps!]

Axrendale- going back to your comparison between Stark and Lannister ruling styles, I would actually posit that "love" does play an additional role. I agree with your assessment completely, but only wanted to point out that the Starks make a point of going around their kingdom and breaking bread with the other lords, even the mountain clans that would be otherwise treated as outsiders by the other Great Lords. I see the idea of "love" coming through with actions like this, as it builds a personal relationship with their people and shows that their lord respects them. I think that through this mutual respect-building, it does offer a fierce loyalty- love aspect to the method of Stark rule. And going slightly off topic, I think the difference in the way the northern clans respond to insults to their lord family is so interesting in comparison to those of the Vale. The Flints, Norreys, etc end up fighting for support of the Starks beside Stannis out of sheer devotion later; conversely, ousting the Arryns and other lords fro the Vale is what motivates the Mountain Men to join with Tyrion.

On Tyrion's end-goals

I largely agree with those who have said that it seems Tyrion is not really envisioning a long-term "profit" to work toward to guide his decisions. I also agree that while Tyrion doesn't envision a concrete image of what "success" might look like, that he is motivated by wanting his father's approval. However, I think what Tyrion most wants is the potential for his "feeling tall," if only for a while. I think that Tyrion struggles with the feeling of powerlessness throughout his arc, and I believe that Tyrion's "endgame" is largely about wielding and keeping power for its own sake. He's smart enough to know that in order to keep power, one must be effective and intelligent in dealing with the variety of factors that can interfere with one's power, and I believe he honestly enjoys the "game" aspect of this sort of repartee. It's like a puzzle he has to solve, and has all the confidence that he can. So I read this as Tyrion's enjoying power for its own sake, Tyrion's genuine enjoyment of the "game," and as a coup de grace, Tyrion's being able to show his father that he's as good or better than him at playing said game.

(I think there's a bit of LF in Tyrion. I've posited elsewhere that LF's "endgame" is actually not an end or a concrete thing, but rather, just to play. That the game itself is the point. I think this is highly apropos to Tyrion's motivations, though we later see that Tyrion is upset at not achieving popular support in response to his "benefaction" to the masses, and unhappy in Tywin's lack of praise).

Also, fully agree with the take on Tyrion's newfound "justice" platform to be a reaction against Cersei/ Joff.

Sphinxes and Riddles

I find the sphinx to be a really vexing aspect. How interesting that sphinxes guard the council chambers. As Blisscraft noted, we have Maester Aemon's later statement: "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." Also, much farther ahead in DwD, Tyrion comes across Sphinxes along the Valyrian Road-- only the female is standing, while the male has been dragged back to Vaes Dothrak. And of course, in this chapter Varys poses the largest riddle we see in the series, the one that keeps repeating.

The object of Aemon's statement is a hotly debated subject on the forum, but I haven't looked at its meaning in the full context of this chapter until now. Is there any possibility that the "riddle" is this one that Varys tells? Could this be Aemon's sphinx? Aemon is the one who notes that Tyrion impresses him as a giant back in aGoT Tyrion II. I can't put my finger on it yet, but I am really wondering what Aemon envisioned for Tyrion, especially in relation to his giant status, Varys' riddle, and Tyrion's observations of the Essosi sphinxes. I think they are all related.

[Lummel]

Hmm I recall the sphinx was the beast that set the riddle 'what walks on four legs in the morning, two legs at midday and three legs in the evening', was that in Oedipus Rex or were Sphinxes involved in that play (surly not I must be getting mixed up there was enough going on with the incest and patricide)?

What kind of beast was a sphinx - what was it a cross between? Is it something about it's duel nature that is the riddle? That might point us at various people.

[butterbumps!]

Hmm I recall the sphinx was the beast that set the riddle 'what walks on four legs in the morning, two legs at midday and three legs in the evening', was that in Oedipus Rex or were Sphinxes involved in that play (surly not I must be getting mixed up there was enough going on with the incest and patricide)?

What kind of beast was a sphinx - what was it a cross between? Is it something about it's duel nature that is the riddle? That might point us at various people.

There's a few different sphinxes in ASOIAF. The ones at the Citadel- and the "traditional" Sphinxes we know from Oedipus- are human heads, lion's bodies, eagle's wings, serpent tails. A Valyrian sphinx is a dragon body with a human head. The "normal" sphinx seems to be an amalgam where each of the pieces = a dragon in its whole.

ETA: this isn't appropriate for the thread, but if you are thinking that it refers to the creature itself, it would seem that at least for the Valyrian one, it's pointing to warging a dragon. Or a leadership committee run by a Lannister, Arryn and one of 3 really obscure Houses whose sigils involve snakes.