Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 That bothered me as well. There were 3000 Dreadfort men, 500 Karstark men and as many Frey men that had orders to start killing at the signal, after drinking and partying with the other Northmen and Riverlanders for hours.It's hard to believe that they all shut their mouth and pulling something like that off without giving orders beforehand seems unbelievable to me, too.The Karstarks were in on the Red Wedding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The Karstarks were in on the Red Wedding?They were definitely there, but I'm not sure if they were in on the Red Wedding, although it is possible. The Karstarks arrived at The Twins with Roose Bolton and his men after the Battle of Duskendale and the Battle of the Ruby Ford. We know that Roose Bolton used these battles to weaken the Northern army, so when he betrayed Robb there wouldn't be too many men left to rise up against him. It could be that he felt the Karstarks wouldn't rise up against him since they were upset about what happened to Rickard Karstark, but they could have also been in on it...I honestly don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Quite realistic actually:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathocles_of_SyracuseDiscussed in Machiavelli's The Prince.Machiavelli's case study is Agathocles of Syracuse. After Agathocles became Praetor of Syracuse, he called a meeting of the city's elite. At his signal, his soldiers killed all the senators and the wealthiest citizens, completely destroying the old oligarchy. He declared himself ruler with no opposition. So secure was his power that he could afford to absent himself to go off on military campaigns in Africa.source wiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Thanks for this. :) I agree.The one thing I had wondered about was the custom regarding guest right. I wonder how superstitious the average soldier would have been about attacking guests? Not saying it would have superseded their inclination to obey orders, but I did wonder about it, whether it would have been a more difficult order to make them follow. It makes me wonder if the Freys et al did impress the degree of Robb's insult upon them, to encourage them to break this tradition.It wouldn't be a problem for the men of the Dreadfort, as they aren't the hosts. As for the Freys' men, I imagine that (like Steelshanks Walton) they slay when their Lords command it, and if they thought about it, would take the view that any blood guilt would attach to their lords, not to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arland Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The one thing I had wondered about was the custom regarding guest right. I wonder how superstitious the average soldier would have been about attacking guests? Not saying it would have superseded their inclination to obey orders, but I did wonder about it, whether it would have been a more difficult order to make them follow. It makes me wonder if the Freys et al did impress the degree of Robb's insult upon them, to encourage them to break this tradition.Or they were told some lie - like Robb turned on Lord Frey and tried to kill him, so guest right is now void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 BULLSHIT!! I wrote a nice little retort, but the Board Mods might not like it.Haha, now I wonder what you were trying to do. Personal attack, perhaps? Never works.You can think it's bullshit, but it actually isn't. And I mean; how the heck did they have to know what was going on there? Nobody told them. Not even all Germans knew what exactly was going on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Quite realistic actually:http://en.wikipedia....les_of_SyracuseDiscussed in Machiavelli's The Prince.source wikiActually doesn't Machiavelli also mention Ferrante of Naples, who murdered his guests and then displayed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liam DarkStark Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Actually doesn't Machiavelli also mention Ferrante of Naples, who murdered his guests and then displayed them.Is that the guy from the borgias? He kept a room of his murdered guests on display as a warning to his enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinslayer Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Funny, Arya learned about the Freys' plan to ditch Robb in ACOK while the readers didn't learn the reason why until ASOS. Arya hears one of the younger Freys talking about how they have been betrayed, so now he won't get to marry his princess. It is not clear from this whether he knew about the plans for the Red Wedding, but it is interesting that the Freys and the Boltons were camped out together (at Harrenhall, I think). The Freys were openly saying they were not staying loyal to Robb and the Boltons don't seem to be doing anything about this.On the historical parrallels, the RW is reminiscent of the abduction of Dinah from the book of Genesis. Dinah is taken by Shechem, a member of a neighboring tribe. Her family then makes arrangements for peace that involve large-scale intermarriage between the two tribes. But right before the wedding(s), Dinah's family comes in and slaughters Shechem's family. (There is also an interesting parrallel for Rhaegar and Lyanna here. The story is referred to as the "rape" of Dinah. But the story also says that Shechem was in love with Dinah). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Funny, Arya learned about the Freys' plan to ditch Robb in ACOK while the readers didn't learn the reason why until ASOS. Arya hears one of the younger Freys talking about how they have been betrayed, so now he won't get to marry his princess. It is not clear from this whether he knew about the plans for the Red Wedding, but it is interesting that the Freys and the Boltons were camped out together (at Harrenhall, I think). The Freys were openly saying they were not staying loyal to Robb and the Boltons don't seem to be doing anything about this.That was immediately after the news got through about Robbs marriage. There was no plan at that time. Though it would have been formed later involving Bolton and some of the Frey's he's with. But mainly Lothar planned it from the Twins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Is that the guy from the borgias? He kept a room of his murdered guests on display as a warning to his enemies.yup that guy.I think a few of those people on display where originally his guests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinslayer Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 That was immediately after the news got through about Robbs marriage. There was no plan at that time. Though it would have been formed later involving Bolton and some of the Frey's he's with. But mainly Lothar planned it from the Twins.That's right. I find it interesting that the Freys and the Boltons are in Harrenhall together and the Freys are saying the alliance with Robb is off. To the best of my recollection we don't see the Bolton reaction to this, but it certainly put them in an awkward spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrigen Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 It is so realistic, that the same actually happened in history - St Bartholomew's Day Massacre anyone?1572. The French (Catholic) king Charles IX invited the great and good of the Huguenots (French Protestants) to Paris for the wedding of Henri III of Navarre (the lead Protestant nobleman) to Princess Margot (the king's Catholic sister). After the wedding while all the guests were drunk, the leading Huguenot noblemen were slaughtered by the Catholics, which spilled into broader mob violence against the Protestants throughout Paris. Death estimates range from 5,000 upwards. Henri himself was spared, held hostage at Charles' court and forced to convert to Catholicism.Sound familiar?What happened next was that Henri managed to outlive Charles IX and his two brothers (all died in quick succession in suspicious circumstances) and become Hernri IV arguably the greatest king France has had, who significantly grew its power, made Paris the metropolis it is today and passed the Edict of Nantes promoting religious freedom in France.Oops... maybe those Edmure will be king theorists are on to something?PS - If anyone's interested there's a great film featuring this event called "La Reine Margot", "Queen Margot", based on the novel of same name by Victor HugoThis is such a good reference! I actually own this movie, but had not watched it for about 7 years (prior to my introduction to ASOIAF), and on a whim yesterday, I watched it again. Not only are the parallels to the RW eerily similar, the onscreen brutality of the film is strikingly akin to the show version of the RW as well. It makes me wonder if GRRM and D&D both used it as source material?As to those who find it dubious that an event such as this could be orchestrated without news being leaked, clearly a only a few were in 'the know'. As in the French history, the stuation at theTwins was already very tense, like a powder-keg waiting for a spark, so when a group such as the Freys or Karstarks (recently slighted or betrayed in some fashion) were in a position to strike ( the RW), it would not have taken much goading to loose the dogs of war. And if the Bolton/Frey/Karstark men were tipped off to be prepared for ' anything to happen' and advised to not drink much, I think it very likely that a smaller force could overcome a larger, drunken one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neilos Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Quite realistic actually:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathocles_of_SyracuseDiscussed in Machiavelli's The Prince.source wiki Though the guests and hosts are inverted, the Red Wedding conjures up the Massacre of Glencoe to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe Not on the same scale numerically, but we know Martin draws from British history, and the massacre of Glencoe left a grim mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duranaparthur Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 You also have to consider that the character of the commanders probably reflected in their troops. Both the Mountain and Ramsay managed to find and collect some of the worst local scumbags for their gangs, and it's likely that being a brave and honorable warrior isn't as valuable to Roose as much as being sneaky, willing to kill, and very aware of what will happen to you if you displease House Bolton. Robb enforces some amount of ethics in his main troops, but a man like Roose is just as likely to reward a sneaky assassin who carries on his business in the off hours as anything else.And the Freys probably have fairly uncaring troops as well. They emphasize loyalty to Walder over everything else, and the different family factions probably ensure their troops are also used to the idea of deception and the occaisional murder.Not that they've managed to recruit an entire army of dishonorable psychopaths who lack the superstitions of their forefathers, but you have enough of the wrong type of people promoted and posted, and you can change the character of an entire army. It's like if all the officers in the army are like Barnes from Platoon and none are like Elias, his sympathetic counterpart: the culture of the group becomes more bloodthirsty and corrupting, and the common grunt begins to expect the darker orders and accept them without comment, instead of realizing what's wrong and taking a stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Sometimes you have espirit de corps where the soldiers are more loyal to their commander/unit then they are to whom the commander serves. In terms of contrieved however we have Renly's death, Dany and Slavers selling 8k Unsullied, Robb funding a secret route into the Westerlands etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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