Red Country 2: This time with dickwavery (Spoilers)

[Rhom]

Continuing discussion from previous thread...

Ro seems like a logical return character.

Locway would almost seem to have to return considering the build up that was given just to have a head lopped off in his lap. That was one storyline that I kept expecting to return that never did. But the ghosts as a whole seemed a bit out of place. I understand that they took the place of the Native American in this "western" but I had a hard time sympathizing with them considering that we'd never heard of them before.

Additionally, the People of the Dragon as a whole seem like they should be ripe for a comeback. Who are these people that seem to worship Glustrod? (Do I have the right demi-god there?) Why have they been up in that mountain for so long and what did they expect to accomplish?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I don't think Ro will come back. I mean... Why? What purpose would she serve?

The only reason I could see her returning is if she leaves the Near Country to search for Lamb. That would mean that Logen would have to be in the last trilogy, and I believe we've seen the last of him.

[Rhom]

I don't think Ro will come back. I mean... Why? What purpose would she serve?

The only reason I could see her returning is if she leaves the Near Country to search for Lamb. That would mean that Logen would have to be in the last trilogy, and I believe we've seen the last of him.

It could depend on how important the People of the Dragon and the rebellion are to the next trilogy.

[polishgenius]

I don't think Ro will come back. I mean... Why? What purpose would she serve?

The only reason I could see her returning is if she leaves the Near Country to search for Lamb. That would mean that Logen would have to be in the last trilogy, and I believe we've seen the last of him.

Why would she necessarily need to be searching for Lamb? It's pretty clear she's not comfortable where she is anymore anyway. She could just mooch off in search of fortune and run into bad trouble or whatever.

I also remember thinking that the girl who got taken by... the big dude who's name I can't remember except for the nickname Pip... in The Heroes was likely to make a return at some point, so maybe her.

[Bankmannen]

I also remember thinking that the girl who got taken by... the big dude who's name I can't remember except for the nickname Pip... in The Heroes was likely to make a return at some point, so maybe her.

Stranger-come-fucking! :)

[Brainstew]

I had to laugh at the irony of this post in the last Red Country thread.

bnman responds to a quote from "Harding Grim" by showing him a post from the recent Reddit AMA where Joe answered a question I asked while I was using the Reddit account "HardingGrim."

[Brainstew]

How far do you guys think Joe will take industrialization in the next trilogy? I know most fantasy fans crap their pants when they read that word.

My concern is that the next trilogy is going to be his send off to the Circle of the World.

[polishgenius]

I know most fantasy fans crap their pants when they read that word.

Really?

And I think it'll be a feature but not a dominant one, present mostly in a military application because that's most of what we've seen thus far, and new ways to kill people is so very Abercrombie. :P

My concern is that the next trilogy is going to be his send off to the Circle of the World.

Better that than an endless dribble of books-for-the-sake-of-it that is always the danger in an extended series- though obviously that isn't necessarily the case (check Discworld). I'm not sure the Circle of the World is a setting that can withstand much stretching though. Onwards and upwards to new creative fields!

[polishgenius]

Edit: double post.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Growing up, I learned to read over the shoulder of my father while he read me Tolkien, Lloyd Alexander, CS Lewis, and all the other fantasy greats he grew up with. I loved these books when I was a kid but I longed to have books of my own, from my own childhood. In second grade, the first Harry Potter book came out. I, like just about every other kid, grew up with Harry Potter over the next several years. However, I was raised on epic fantasy and Harry Potter wasn't epic fantasy. I wanted a Tolkien of my own, just as my father had.

I remember being in line at Borders, when they still existed, and seeing a novel with a gorgeous cover. I split it open and soon realized that it was an epic fantasy with much greater magic than any fantasy that I had ever read or come across. It was a paint by numbers Forgotten Realms book. The next year and a half went by and I read tons of Forgotten Realms books. I soon read so many that I eventually got sick of them. This is when I began to realize that I did not like predictable stories.

This is my opinion but Tolkien's books were predictable. The good guys were destined to win, no matter how outnumbered they were. About the biggest death in the whole novel is Boromir who is about the least likable character in the Fellowship. And JK Rowling even more so. Hermoine, Ron, and Harry were never truly in any danger. I even read that Rowling had intended to kill off Ron but couldn't bring herself to do it.

So one day early in high school I went on Amazon and went through the highest rated fantasy books and found Game of Thrones in there. Here the reviewer said it was finally a different kind of fantasy. Everyone did black and white (good vs evil) after Tolkien and here was an author that did more "tones of grey". I read the series over nine years ago and loved it. Here, the good guys did not always win and more than that there were no truly "good guys". Heck, Jaime Lannister is actually turning out to doing some pretty good things.

After this, I blazed through the recommendations of Westeros to find other books in the same vein. I haven't loved everything that I've read. Some of it wasn't as well written as others. I think I have read my fair share of it over the years. I've read Bakker, Abraham, Hobb, Lynch, Morgan, Rothfuss, Sanderson, Weeks, Newton, Brett, etc. etc. Some of it was good, some not-so-good, and some great. I remember reading the First Law Trilogy and just loving it to death. it was different. Heck, it was really, really grey. It also had this great concept, very original. A cold war between two great wizards who fought with the power of nations. it also had a rich backstory (one thing I never quite understood about fantasy is that seemingly every story has the rich background history that they build up; Abercrombie has Euz, his sons, and the magi; Martin has Azhor Ahai; Rothfuss has the Chandrian; Sanderson has the 17th Shard; Hobb has the Elderlings, etc. etc. but none of them tell that story. I've always wondered why the hell this was the case.)

But now, my opinion has changed again or rather a new element has come into play. I like grey fantasy in that it puts you on the edge of your seat. No character is safe. No character is unkillable. But black fantasy is just as predictable as Black and White fantasy. In black and white fantasy the hero will always win. in black fantasy the seemingly good characters will never, ever win. They will die meaningless deaths and the most evil bastards will always win. I can thank Abercrombie for this. After The Heroes I sort of felt this way but was hoping that it wouldn't be the case. I remember thinking that Abercrombie always likes to set his characters up as flawed characters in the beginning looking for change and looking to change themselves. By the end of the novel they have failed miserably at doing so and have come to grips with what they are.

As I read Red Country, I knew what would become of Lamb. He can't change what he is. I knew that the seemingly benevolent Wheredenur (or however you spell his name) and the Dragon people who actually were trying to rid the world of the Shanka were all going to die miserably and pointlessly. I knew this to be the case and it was so. So just like Black and White fantasy was no longer to my liking now I do not like Black fantasy. Where is the suspense in knowing from the beginning that the main characters won't change and that the "good" will never, ever win. Fuck that. That's just as sloppy writing as knowing that Harry Potter won't ever truly be in any sense of danger.

So, yea, I have not actually finished Red Country. I am at the point where Cosca has just slaughtered everyone in Ashrank, just like I knew he would from the moment the place was introduced. And I think that this slaughter is a fitting end for any more Abercrombie books. I will finish the novel, because I don't like leaving one unfinished. I will probably check out the first of Abercombie's next trilogy. However, if it's more of the same then that's one less author I have to keep up with.

You can argue my wording. You can argue my opinion. You can argue the details (the Dragon people weren't good, they stole children!). You can do whatever you like. But just be honest: how many of you could tell where this novel was going before it even got started. It's a shame. It's a let down. But its the sad truth.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Continuing discussion from previous thread...

Ro seems like a logical return character.

Locway would almost seem to have to return considering the build up that was given just to have a head lopped off in his lap. That was one storyline that I kept expecting to return that never did. But the ghosts as a whole seemed a bit out of place. I understand that they took the place of the Native American in this "western" but I had a hard time sympathizing with them considering that we'd never heard of them before.

Additionally, the People of the Dragon as a whole seem like they should be ripe for a comeback. Who are these people that seem to worship Glustrod? (Do I have the right demi-god there?) Why have they been up in that mountain for so long and what did they expect to accomplish?

Euz had four sons. The first was Juvens to which he gave the Art. The second was Kanedias, the Master Maker (this is the one they worship), to which he gave the gift of Making. The third was Bedesh, to which he gave the gift of speaking with the spirits. The fourth was Glustrod, to which should have gone the gift of speaking and summoning demons. However, this was forbidden by the First Law spoken by Euz, so Glustrod only received Euz' blessing.

Also, I think that if anyone is a demi-god it would be Euz. Euz was half human half demon. His son's were only a quarter demon.

[Spring Bass]

Considering how cynical the setting is (and how Bayaz was self-serving in what he told about the background), I half-wonder if the whole "four sons" thing is partially bullshit. Maybe Euz really split off the demons from the rest because he wanted to rule the Awesome Planet of Demons and not the shitty material world of humans. ;)

[Garlan the Gallant]

Considering how cynical the setting is (and how Bayaz was self-serving in what he told about the background), I half-wonder if the whole "four sons" thing is partially bullshit. Maybe Euz really split off the demons from the rest because he wanted to rule the Awesome Planet of Demons and not the shitty material world of humans. ;)

Tolomei, the Maker's daughter, in the body of Malacus Quai told the story, not Bayaz.

[Samalander]

My concern is that the next trilogy is going to be his send off to the Circle of the World.

Well, he's got to stop somewhere, and bring about some form of conclusion (even if it will turn out to be setting the next generation of great conflict, this time between even lesser individuals, as I suspect)... and that seems as good a point as any. We don't really want him to go Hobb on us, now do we (another Fitz-Fool trilogy in the works!)?

[Harding Grim]

Tolomei, the Maker's daughter, in the body of Malacus Quai told the story, not Bayaz.

Indeed so, but provoked to do so, by Bayaz. Bayaz also told us a hell of a lot more in the grand scheme of things than what Tolomei did in the form of Quai. I took that more to be a lesson on the history of the Old Empire.

[Harding Grim]

Also, It let us down? Don't understand the generalisation there. Granted, I don't think that its many peoples favourite of what JA has written, but I still really liked it. What's more, it was an important progression for the world as well as his writing. JA said throughout his blog that he wanted to write a Western, and he did that bang on. He hasn't let me down, i don't think he's let most people down. If he had, i doubt a discussion would still be going on really. So i must argue your opinion, in a friendly manner of course. To say its the sad truth though? Hmmm, i certainly think not. If you had enjoyed TFL so much, i can't understand why you wouldn;t be loyal to an author.

[Rhom]

You can argue my wording. You can argue my opinion. You can argue the details (the Dragon people weren't good, they stole children!). You can do whatever you like. But just be honest: how many of you could tell where this novel was going before it even got started. It's a shame. It's a let down. But its the sad truth.

My ex-wife taught me quite effectively that people are entitled to their own feelings and yours are made very clear, and understandably so. What I would ask though is this: Is it the journey or the destination? I would highly suggest you finish Red Country. Perhaps the destination is exactly what you thought it would be (its not far off from what I expected I suppose, but is generally a bit different than most JA books); but how we get there is still just as entertaining to me. Abercrombie has a wit and humor about his writing that makes his characters feel alive. The internal monologue of the varying members of the fellowship during the POV hand-off scene seemed real. The scene where an old man with prostate issues emerges from his wagon waving his chamber pot at the invading natives still stands out in my mind. That has nothing to do with "black and white," it has everything to do with a memorable and enjoyable story.

ETA: Also, when was it ever said that the People of the Dragon's purpose was to rid the world of the Shrank? I know they had a raiding party out dealing with some locals, I was more of the opinion that they were trying to bring back the world of the past and the message of JA's books has always been that you can't go back.

[Harding Grim]

Rhom, I conquer. Well said.

[loveboof]

So just like Black and White fantasy was no longer to my liking now I do not like Black fantasy. Where is the suspense in knowing from the beginning that the main characters won't change and that the "good" will never, ever win. Fuck that. That's just as sloppy writing as knowing that Harry Potter won't ever truly be in any sense of danger.

I think Rhom has perfectly answered your concerns. What I would add about Red Country specifically, is that quite a lot of people were surprised by how 'happy' the ending was!

Maybe you have jumped the gun a little by forming your opinion before finishing the book? Maybe you have just read a bit too much fantasy recently - try some other genres to freshen your palate?

I found Joe's stuff after blitzing through A Song of Ice and Fire (and thristy for a bit more lol). However, I think that Joe's writing has it's own charm. Instinctively, it feels really harsh to call it black... As you said, we won't all agree, but I have thoroughly enjoyed all of his books so far and intend to get the next ones asap! :)

[Rhom]

However, I think that Joe's writing has it's own charm. Instinctively, it feels really harsh to call it black... As you said, we won't all agree, but I have thoroughly enjoyed all of his books so far and intend to get the next ones asap! :)

Yes, I would hardly describe Abercrombie's writings as black. I'll reserve that for Bakker complete with tar colored semen! :smileysex: For all his character's failings, they often wind up better off outwardly than they began. Glokta has a wife/caretaker. Jezal is king. Logen is still alive. etc Sure much of it is the fantasy trope turned on its head, and many of them are just outright bastards. Collem West is one of the most heroic characters in the book... and he's guilty of domestic violence. The bumbling mentor wizard is the worst dictator since Stalin.

One thing they all have in common is that they are fantastic characters. I'll take that writing any day of the week.