Red Country 2: This time with dickwavery (Spoilers)

[Reposado]

+1

I am not sure if there are any "heros or good guys" in JA's works.

oh yes there are. they're a bunch of rocks on a hill in osrung

but yes. i was just clarifying that i did not want it to turn out that the khalul was any better than bayaz.

[The Lord's Kiss]

I want one of the POVs to be a Gurkhish soldier being tortured by Glokta for the last however many years, and another POV way up in the Gurkish regime as the guy who broke Glokta in the first place. They can all be from Gurkhal as far as I'm concerned, Temple and Ferro are the only ones I recall so the place itself is basically a mystery other than Dagoska and Ferro's brief desert trek.

[Francis Buck]

A little off-topic, but this is the most active Abercrombie topic so I'm going to post it here.

I just finished The Blade Itself, and upon doing so I found myself wondering: do any characters other than Glokta have the italicized "inner monologue" stuff? I'm almost certain that they do, but upon flipping through the book (albeit briefly), all I found were Glokta chapters. Even if he isn't the only one to have them, there's definitely a surplus in his POV's. Just something sort of interesting, and I wonder how intentional it was.

[delete this account pls]

I just finished this. I'm a big fan of westerns and of Abercrombie, so I liked it a lot. I won't bother ranking it because the three stand-alones are all so different, but I felt like Red Country was the most personal story Joe has written so far. It doesn't have the epic sweep or the world-shaking events of Best Served Cold or The Heroes, except for a few things simmering in the background, but I don't think it suffers for that. Exactly the opposite, actually. Likewise Shy and Temple aren't big characters or personalities, but they felt more like real people to me - so many of Joe's characters are these big, larger than life figures, but Shy and Temple aren't that at all. They were just (relatively) normal people living (relatively) normal lives. We don't get to see that in the Circle of the World much (Ardee was the last one that springs to mind). I was also pleasantly surprised that not only did this book have a happy (if bittersweet) ending .... it was also remarkably optimistic! The theme of community as a positive influence actually survived the book without being too badly damaged - the bonds made between the members of the Fellowship were strong and very real (Hedge aside), and largely paid off in the end. There's a few things I could criticise (the Ghosts could have used some fleshing out, and things felt a little rushed at times, especially once the action moves on from Crease, and I felt like the pace was occasionally detrimental - the whole attack on the Dragon People, for example) but nothing that really seriously undermined my enjoyment.

Not using Lamb as a POV was the right decision, I thought. I don't think it would have added anything (wouldn't his internal monologue be much the same as it was in The Blade Itself, except slightly more resigned?), and it was fascinating seeing him from the outside. If anything, it made me like him more, and also appreciate just how terrifying the Bloody Nine is. Joe was obviously going for a Man With No Name homage with Lamb in this book, and using him as a POV would have ruined that effect.

Also, with all the talk about which characters will be returning in the next trilogy, I'm surprised noone has mentioned the most obvious (to me) - Corlin/Conthus (if somebody did mention her, my apologies, the first thread was long). She's a now mega rich leader of a major rebellion, and we know basically next to nothing about her. We don't know much about the rebellion as a whole, come to think of it, though it seems like a bit of a peasant's revolt, based on ideals and political principles. I'm very interested to see how Bayaz reacts to that, seeing as the last rebellion in the Union was actually masterminded by him as a bit of theater. I don't think Logen will return in the flesh, but I think we'll hear more about him, much the same way as we've heard about Glokta or Monza.

[red snow]

Also, with all the talk about which characters will be returning in the next trilogy, I'm surprised noone has mentioned the most obvious (to me) - Corlin/Conthus (if somebody did mention her, my apologies, the first thread was long). She's a now mega rich leader of a major rebellion, and we know basically next to nothing about her. We don't know much about the rebellion as a whole, come to think of it, though it seems like a bit of a peasant's revolt, based on ideals and political principles. I'm very interested to see how Bayaz reacts to that, seeing as the last rebellion in the Union was actually masterminded by him as a bit of theater. I don't think Logen will return in the flesh, but I think we'll hear more about him, much the same way as we've heard about Glokta or Monza.

That's a good point. Especially when it looks like the far country is where the industrial revolution may be kicking off (I can imagine Bayaz pushing it back in the union too but maybe with more control over the effect on the populace) it would possible place Conthus as the "leader" of that part of the world. Peasants revolt and a means for everyone to make money seems a dangerous combination.

I still feel like we don't know much about the Empire, other than the Union sees it as more of a threat than anyone else.

[bnman]

Likewise Shy and Temple aren't big characters or personalities, but they felt more like real people to me - so many of Joe's characters are these big, larger than life figures, but Shy and Temple aren't that at all. They were just (relatively) normal people living (relatively) normal lives. We don't get to see that in the Circle of the World much (Ardee was the last one that springs to mind).

just wanted to say that a character looks larger-than-life only from the PoV of a third person. The internal monologue of each of the larger-than-life char is quite small and down to earth. By reading ARC, you'd thought that GG is a 10foot tall monster like the Feared. But from his PoV, he is just another man, out to redeem his name and family honour, doing what he must, each fight his last

Not using Lamb as a POV was the right decision, I thought. I don't think it would have added anything (wouldn't his internal monologue be much the same as it was in The Blade Itself, except slightly more resigned?), and it was fascinating seeing him from the outside. If anything, it made me like him more, and also appreciate just how terrifying the Bloody Nine is. Joe was obviously going for a Man With No Name homage with Lamb in this book, and using him as a POV would have ruined that effect.

Hmmm, seeing the B9 from a third person PoV was good. But IMO, switching to rescue of Shy during the fight broke the flow of story. I would have really enjoyed the complete description of the fight from a third PoV, rather than just the starting and the end.,

Also, with all the talk about which characters will be returning in the next trilogy, I'm surprised noone has mentioned the most obvious (to me) - Corlin/Conthus (if somebody did mention her, my apologies, the first thread was long). She's a now mega rich leader of a major rebellion, and we know basically next to nothing about her. We don't know much about the rebellion as a whole, come to think of it, though it seems like a bit of a peasant's revolt, based on ideals and political principles. I'm very interested to see how Bayaz reacts to that, seeing as the last rebellion in the Union was actually masterminded by him as a bit of theater. I don't think Logen will return in the flesh, but I think we'll hear more about him, much the same way as we've heard about Glokta or Monza.

I am not much interested in Corlin/Conthus and the rebellion. It is too much vague and unspecific.

[The hairy bear]

Conthuss and the rebels from Starikland were fighting to obtain independence from the Union. What I find most interesting about the rebels is that they are being supported by Zacharus, which could be seen as a defiance to Bayaz. Zacharus was also instrumental to crown Goltus as emperor, and the people from Starikland may be interested to become a protectorate of the neighbouring Old Empire. That would be a huge power to be reckoned with, rivalling the puppet kingdoms of Bayaz and Khalul.

Logen would be awesome to see again... although it is weird seeing him being portrayed as an "old" man... I mean I pictured him in his late 30's in the First Law Trilogy....but when we saw him last everyone seemed to portray him as being in his 60's...which I guess isn't that old.

Regarding Logen's age, Shy says that he is 25 ears older than her, which makes him 45 during RC and 31-32 during TFL. Joe said that the new trilogy would be 20-30 years after the first one, so Logen would be between 52 and 62 years. A bit too old for a fighting man, and as much as I like him, he already has had two good farewells, so I'm not rooting for him in the next trilogy. I would rather know about Glokta and Jezal: we have known less about them in the standalones, and are younger and in the center of the political life of the Union.

i would like to see the ghurkish as central protaganists. not as heroes or good guys, mind you

I agree with the sentiment. The Ghurkul Empire is a question mark, so far, and I'm eager to hear about Khalul's side of the argument.

[bnman]

Regarding Logen's age, Shy says that he is 25 ears older than her, which makes him 45 during RC and 31-32 during TFL. Joe said that the new trilogy woud 20-30 years after the first one, so Logen would be between 52 and 62 years. A bit too old for a fighting man, and as much as I like him, he already has had two good farewells, so I'm not rooting for him in the next trilogy. I would rather know about Glokta and Jezal: we have known less about them in the standalones, and are younger and in the center of the political life of the Union.

two good farewells... Yeah i guess the end of Trilogy is a sorta farewell, if rather anticlimatic. And i think we all agree that we'd rather not have Logen than a "old man" Lamb.

What would be the point of Jezal in the next Trilogy ? he takes no decisions. He is just the mouth for Glokta's brain.

[Harding Grim]

That would be the point of Jezal in the next Trilogy ? he takes no decisions. He is just the mouth for Glokta's brain.

It was my opinion that Jezal was becoming more of an admirable figure at the end of TFL. He will always be Bayaz's/Glokta's puppet, yet he will still play a major part in the sense of military commander/father/idol for many I believe. I think the people love him, so he will have a huge part to play when it comes down to whatever JA is planning for the fate of the Union.

Oh yeah, and he's the king of the fucking union. That's why he'll be in the next trilogy.

[red snow]

Yeah, I think Jezal showed moments of wanting to be a great leader until Bayaz shot him down and made him heel. I got the impression Jezal was still quite young back then - I think it would be interesting to see how he has matured over the last 15 years. It could be that he's just became Bayaz's pawn but I'd like to see him grow a bit more of a spine. Maybe become a bit more like Calder? Otherwise I'm sure he'll be there as Bayaz's whimpering bitch. I have much higher hopes for his children.

[bnman]

i think we will see more of Shylo Vitari too.

[SeanF]

That's a good point. Especially when it looks like the far country is where the industrial revolution may be kicking off (I can imagine Bayaz pushing it back in the union too but maybe with more control over the effect on the populace) it would possible place Conthus as the "leader" of that part of the world. Peasants revolt and a means for everyone to make money seems a dangerous combination.

I still feel like we don't know much about the Empire, other than the Union sees it as more of a threat than anyone else.

I imagine that Bayaz and Glokta would be very keen to extend Union influence in the Far Country. At the end, a small branch of Valint and Balk has been established in Crease. I should think that would persuade Carlot to go on her travels again.

The Old Empire seems to have recovered quite a lot of power and influence under Goltus, and Legate Sarmis, given how wary Superior Pike is about provoking them.

[SeanF]

Yeah, I think Jezal showed moments of wanting to be a great leader until Bayaz shot him down and made him heel. I got the impression Jezal was still quite young back then - I think it would be interesting to see how he has matured over the last 15 years. It could be that he's just became Bayaz's pawn but I'd like to see him grow a bit more of a spine. Maybe become a bit more like Calder? Otherwise I'm sure he'll be there as Bayaz's whimpering bitch. I have much higher hopes for his children.

In fairness to Jezal, Bayaz can kill him with a thought. I expect he'll be quite a decent king, within the limitations that Bayaz has imposed on him. Even Glokta would like to loosen the leash.

[Harding Grim]

It was always my view that Glokta was somewhat better with someone above him, i say better, what i mean is more effective. I think it may have been installed within him when he was crippled, he loast the bravado he had when a colonel and not having to really answer to any specific person, which was clearly his downfall at the time.

[red snow]

I imagine that Bayaz and Glokta would be very keen to extend Union influence in the Far Country. At the end, a small branch of Valint and Balk has been established in Crease. I should think that would persuade Carlot to go on her travels again.

The Old Empire seems to have recovered quite a lot of power and influence under Goltus, and Legate Sarmis, given how wary Superior Pike is about provoking them.

My impression of the old empire in "before they were hanged" was that it was ineffective and not considered a threat due to constantly warring factions. I guess under Goltus they are turning things around. A bit like when Europe started working as a single entity rather (still working on perfecting that) than fighting among themselves .

Having Bayaz as a master definitely limits how rebellious Jezal (or anyone can be). The tricky thing with Bayaz is that I think he does have the union's interests coiciding with his own a lot of the time. this means Jezal doesn't have much to work against in that sense - although the constant war isn't great but I'm trying to recall if Bayaz puts people's lives at risk for no reason. I guess the fake rebellion was one case. And the eaters attacking because of him. I'm waffling though, basically other than the personal issue does Jezal have reason to rebel against Bayaz?

[bnman]

It was always my view that Glokta was somewhat better with someone above him, i say better, what i mean is more effective. I think it may have been installed within him when he was crippled, he loast the bravado he had when a colonel and not having to really answer to any specific person, which was clearly his downfall at the time.

Wut ?

[Harding Grim]

After being crippled by the Gurkish, and becoming and inquisitor, he is far more effective in his line of work. Before, he seemed a little like Jezal before he went on his journey. Full of bravado and naievity, then it was kinda beaten out of him. And having someone pulling his strings, although i know he does find his own avenues within those strings, seems like a better way for him to focus.

[delete this account pls]

just wanted to say that a character looks larger-than-life only from the PoV of a third person. The internal monologue of each of the larger-than-life char is quite small and down to earth. By reading ARC, you'd thought that GG is a 10foot tall monster like the Feared. But from his PoV, he is just another man, out to redeem his name and family honour, doing what he must, each fight his last

You definitely have a point, but no matter how relatable Glama's internal monologue is .... he's still a famous bare-knuckle brawler and former War Chief who bears a striking resemblance to Hulk Hogan. He's not exactly an "everyman". Even Beck from The Heroes is the son of a famous champion. Or there's Corporal Tunny, a normal soldier .... except that he's renowned both for his dodginess and his insane bravery, so much so that even generals have heard of him. I feel like Shy and Temple are different from most of Abercrombies characters, because they're fairly ordinary people thrust briefly into an extraordinary situation, rather than famous figures with a relatable personality.

[delete this account pls]

Double post

[red snow]

You definitely have a point, but no matter how relatable Glama's internal monologue is .... he's still a famous bare-knuckle brawler and former War Chief who bears a striking resemblance to Hulk Hogan. He's not exactly an "everyman". Even Beck from The Heroes is the son of a famous champion. Or there's Corporal Tunny, a normal soldier .... except that he's renowned both for his dodginess and his insane bravery, so much so that even generals have heard of him. I feel like Shy and Temple are different from most of Abercrombies characters, because they're fairly ordinary people thrust briefly into an extraordinary situation, rather than famous figures with a relatable personality.

I guess you could argue that Shy is the step-daughter of a Legend and was also pretty infamous in her area during her rebellious teen years. Temple the most ordinary in terms of notoriety but he also mixed with some pretty interesting figures during his time. I still agree with the theory of my friend that Shy and Temple are deliberately ordinary to prove Cosca's point of this being the end of the era of larger than lofe characters. I hope it's not the case for the next trilogy though as it could be pretty dull without some larger-than-life characters peppering the story. Shenkt and Bayaz seem like they have to figure in somewhere and I doubt they will have become more ordinary in the passing time.