Heresy 36

[Elaena Targaryen]

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

[Lannister Hamster]

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

So it is a bit weird that Craster is the only cold god worshipper that's even been hinted at in the text? Right?

Also the trees are living creatures and are worshipped so it doesn't make sense to me that the Sidhe can't be worshipped - and also that Craster is the only cold god worshipper around.

Basically its like a doomsday cult or satanism or something similar. Which if true either connects the COTF with the Sidhe much closer or actually changes the whole dynamic of the belief system as the COTF and Sidhe are enemies - with the R'hallots also being opposed to something

[Black Crow]

Thanks Elaena, you beat me to it while I was out, although I think it may be slightly more complicated and in part harks back to Varys' riddle about the king, the bishop and the banker, ie; authority rests where you believe it to be. The Thenns, we're told, regard their Magnar not as a man but a god or demi-god, yet he's a man. Similarly Gilly thinks of the white shadows as the cold gods, while her mother recognises them as Craster's sons.

What Craster himself thinks is interesting:

"you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

Lets dissect this a little. Fires and swords aren't going to be enough "when the white cold comes".

Of itself that bit's straightforward enough, fire may daunt the white shadows but its not always effective. If its cold enough fire will go out. Likewise swords. I'm prepared to believe that Craster's boys will bleed if cut by cold iron, but its a chancy weapon in the cold and against their armour.

So instead "Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

Now what's interesting about this bit is that whether he recognises the white shadows as his sons or not, he isn't equating them with the cold gods, but rather speaking of them as though they are the servants of the cold gods.

Going a little further down this particular primrose path, you'll also note that he refers to the gods (plural) - if they are servants they serve the cold gods, not the Great Other (singular).

Instead therefore this pretty little path leads us to two things, firstly of course this is entirely consistent with the Changeling/Tithe to Hell lore of the Faerie races taking human servants, secondly it raises another perhaps slightly more disturbing question. Qhorin Halfhand, who clearly knew far more than was good for him, took Jon with him on his last ranging because the old powers were awakening, the gods of the First Men and the Starks.

The Starks are (supposedly) First Men so why make that distinction? The Gods of the First Men are the Old Gods, but what of the Starks, were they too once upon a time bound to the Cold Gods and is this why they were once Kings of Winter?

[Little Wing]

Have the cold gods been worshiped in the distant past? Is that among the things forgotten by the Starks? :dunno:

[Black Crow]

Well, given that distinction made by Qhorin, the fact they were Kings of Winter, had a sword named Ice and their words are Winter is Coming...

[Elaena Targaryen]

The cold gods has always reminded me of the other elemental gods in the story. So Little Wing remember our small discussion on what the religion of the First Men might have been and one possibility were these gods of elements; storm god, drowned god, ect, well it would not be such a stretch for the Starks to accept the cold gods.

Also Little Wing I found and old post from Ibbeson from Ibben in Heresy 5 pondering on the religion of the First Men that I liked and wanted to show you when we talked of this before.

I can think of three examples that seem to describe the religion of the FM before they adopted the CotF's religion.

1) aDwD p126, when Davos is on Sweetsister.

Quote

"Storms were sacred on the Sisters before the Andals came. Our gods of old were the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies. They made storms every time they mated."

2) aCoK, the description of the building of Storm's End, mentions the sea god and the goddess of the wind

3) the Iron Islands, with the Drowned God and the Storm God.

This seems to point to some sort of pantheon based on nature elements. It's interesting that the first two sources see these two gods/goddesses as allies, while the Ironmen make them opponents (and both male). I think it is likely there were more gods in the pantheon for other forces, but we haven't heard of them.

[Lannister Hamster]

Re the post above - that could be taken as just superstition by people in a pre-science era/pre-Maesters

[Little Wing]

Thanks, Elaena. Hmm... Lady of the Waves - reminds me of the Lady of the Lake ... If the original religion of the First Men was pantheistic, I wonder why they feared the trees so much they had to burn them... I mean, besides the obvious fear of being watched by trees with eyes...

[Black Crow]

Re the post above - that could be taken as just superstition by people in a pre-science era/pre-Maesters

Perfectly true, but once again it comes back to the king, the bishop and the banker. If you believe that gods are involved...

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

So instead "Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

Now what's interesting about this bit is that whether he recognises the white shadows as his sons or not, he isn't equating them with the cold gods, but rather speaking of them as though they are the servants of the cold gods.

Can you clarify this? I'm not seeing anything about servants. Only gods, and cold gods which may or may not be the same 'gods' in his eyes.

[Runaway Penguin]

I always got the "Gods of the First Men and Starks" as emphasis on why take Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell along.

[nanother]

...Secondly, as we know, the Targaryens of a certain generation were obsessed with two presumably related things; the mysterious Prince that was Promised prophecy about which we know nothing, and the hatching of dragon eggs. Of itself the dragon-hatching might seem an odd whimsy. The Targaryens used them to conquer Westeros, but they don't need them to hold it and whether or not poison was actually used, there's a very strong impression they withered away through lack of use, fresh air and exercise. Its therefore reasonable to suppose that dragons and the Prince that was Promised are connected in some way and we have from time to time discussed the possibility that the Prince was promised from the Targaryen line to restore the Valyrian Empire.

...

I think we know more about the PtwP prophecy than we know about the AA one (if they're indeed different). There are two prophecies explicitly mentioned: one about a flaming sword and one about the dragons. And almsot all references to the prophecies are about the dragon one, the only two exceptions are the very first time Mel recites the prophecy (the burning of the Seven, when Stannis draws 'Lightbringer' from the fire) and a vague remark some Volantene guy makes about Benerro 'shrieking' about 'bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world'. This suggests that Red Lot believes those two to be about the same person. From the Targs, we only ever hear about PtwP, and while we never hear the whole prophecy from any of them, we have enough evidence to be fairly certain that their prophecy is the same as the Red Lot's dragon one.

The elements of the 'dragon' prophecy are: bleeding star ('red star' in Mel's telling, but I suspect she only added that in hindsight), which Rhaegar thought must be a comet; possibly darkness gathering (I think only Mel mentions it); salt and smoke - full agreement on this; and dragons have to be part of the result (Mel: 'to wake dragons from stone', Aemon: 'the dragons prove it'). Unfortunately, we only have second hand retellings of Benerro's words, but those don't mention the bleeding star (and the role of dragons is unclear, see the quote below). There's also this war 'for life itself' Mel talks about, which Aemon recognizes as the 'war for the dawn' (and Benerro talks about Death itself bending its knee). We don't know what Aemon thinks about Lightbringer/AA, but he obviously knows what Mel's talking about (probably better than Mel herself). Funnily enough, the 'sword' prophecy also has 'bleeding stars' - in plural, vs the singular in the 'dragon' one. It might be insignificant or it might indicate these are two separate prophecies (possibly about different people). All that makes me think that they all get their ideas from one common source that is a collection of prophecies (all by one person, or compiled from different sources), and that collection also says something about this 'war for the dawn'.

Of course, that'd make it unlikely that a Ghiscari and a Valyrian prophecy ended up together in the mix, although not impossible. But then, it'd be odd for Valyrians to make prophecies about their own restoration and waking dragons from stone when they're on the rise and with a sufficient number of dragons to kick the Ghiscari's ass. Mind you, Maester Aemon says, regarding the expected gender of the PtwP: "the language misled us all for a thousand years" - it indicates that 'they' (Targs? Maesters? or who?) were speculating about waking dragons while dragons were still around and even Valyria was still doing fine

It could be all Ghiscari ('we'll have our own dragons one day!'), but then how did it end up with the Targaryens?

Also, the anti-Valyrian aspect of the Red Lot is not nearly as obvious as some posters make it out to be:

“The priest is calling on the Volantenes to go to war,” the Halfmaester told him, “but on the side

of right, as soldiers of the Lord of Light, R’hllor who made the sun and stars and fights eternally against

the darkness. Nyessos and Malaquo have turned away from the light, he says, their hearts darkened by

the yellow harpies from the east. He says …”

“Dragons. I understood that word. He said dragons.”

“Aye. The dragons have come to carry her to glory.”

“Her. Daenerys?”

Haldon nodded. “Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of

an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai

returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will

bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

[nanother]

I always got the "Gods of the First Men and Starks" as emphasis on why take Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell along.

This, but also, I don't think the Starks are considered First Men anymore. Whenever it comes up in the books, people say stuff like 'the blood of the First Men runs thick in their veins' or something similar, so the distinction is always there.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, given that distinction made by Qhorin, the fact they were Kings of Winter, had a sword named Ice and their words are Winter is Coming...

BC i have a question what do you think? Seeing as Jon's roll may be King of Winter and there is clearly an unbalance in the realm do you think what is needed is an elemental Avatar that is a representation of the elements?

I.e we have Jon as winter/wind,Bran as Earth,probably Dany as fire and all we are missing is a representation of water.

Maybe no one person is important but an alignment of the elements in the form of their conduits to restore the balance.In some interpretations of the Wheel of the elements/seasons are represented by a person there must also be a balance in the Male /Female energies.So if we have Bran,Jon and Dany we most likely need a female to balance the wheel.

I have a theory but i'm dumb on the particulars. Jon was born in Dorne am i right? What Direction is Dorne? Also Dany was born on Dragonstone;what direction is that.I'll post my theory later.

[Runaway Penguin]

so it might be acknowledgment that while they are not pure First Men anymore, they still stick to old gods... True.

Then again, Occam's razor seldom works in books of fiction, so there is possibility that there was something more to what Halfhand said :)

[Little Wing]

BC i have a question what do you think? Seeing as Jon's roll may be King of Winter and there is clearly an unbalance in the realm do you think what is needed is an elemental Avatar that is a representation of the elements?

I.e we have Jon as winter/wind,Bran as Earth,probably Dany as fire and all we are missing is a representation of water.

Maybe no one person is important but an alignment of the elements in the form of their conduits to restore the balance.In some interpretations of the Wheel of the elements/seasons are represented by a person there must also be a balance in the Male /Female energies.So if we have Bran,Jon and Dany we most likely need a female to balance the wheel.

I have a theory but i'm dumb on the particulars. Jon was born in Dorne am i right? What Direction is Dorne? Also Dany was born on Dragonstone;what direction is that.I'll post my theory later.

There was a whole thread on Arya being connected to the water element.

ETA: Here it is.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

There was a whole thread on Arya being connected to the water element.

ETA: Here it is.

Also Patchface.

[Black Crow]

Can you clarify this? I'm not seeing anything about servants. Only gods, and cold gods which may or may not be the same 'gods' in his eyes.

What Craster is basically saying is that when you're up against his sons, fire and sword won't help you. You need the protection of the gods, ergo although Gilly calls the white shadows the cold gods, Craster is drawing a distinction between the two, presumably because he knows the shadows are his sons who he has been giving up to the gods as a tithe to Hell

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

What Craster is basically saying is that when you're up against his sons, fire and sword won't help you. You need the protection of the gods, ergo although Gilly calls the white shadows the cold gods, Craster is drawing a distinction between the two, presumably because he knows the shadows are his sons who he has been giving up to the gods as a tithe to Hell

There is also the possibility that hes just referring to the 'old gods' not cold gods when he says "get right with the gods". I think this is relevant specifically during Sam's attempt to head back to the wall when he is in the wilding town. He 'gets right' with the old gods by praying to the weirwood tree. Moments later when he is attacked by wights, coldhands appears, presumably sent by Bloodraven, and the crow/raven's save he and Gilly by eating the wights.

[Runaway Penguin]

By the way what happened at Craster's Keep? The Ranger deserters were still there when Craster's wives claimed their sons will be there soon, but the dead Rangers seen later by Summer were presumably killed by Coldhands... So what happened there when the sons came in for a visit? Did they spare their mothers?