Will Melisandre bring down the wall?

[BaronVonMolotov]

We all know the others and white walkers are coming but no one seems to be asking the question: How will they get past the wall? Supposedly the wall was built with magic from the old gods. If the others are going to invade Westeros they will need to destroy the magic that protects the wall. I have a strong feeling Melisandre will play a part in bringing down the wall. She has her own agenda and no one really seems to know what it is. I think it would be interesting if she was a saboteur that helps bring the wall down for the white walkers or maybe she's even a white walker of some sort herself or serves the god whos name should not be spoken. Here's some Things I've been thinking about.

1. Melisandre is the only sorceress/red priest at the wall and her powers are stronger at the wall. Perhaps she has powers to counteract the magic in the wall. She definitely seemed eager to get to the wall and pushed Stannis into that course of action and lingered behind after he leaves for winterfell.

2. She supposedly burned the horn of Joramun which could have awoken giants and brought down the wall. The thing is she supposedly burned Mance Rayder too which we know was a glamour. perhaps burning the horn of Joramun was a glamour as well and she still possesses the horn.

3.She steals part of Stannis' soul every time they have sex and make a shadow baby. Theres a Bran chapter in SOS where he talks about a story old Nan told him about a stark in the past who has sex with a other and every time he gives the other his seed he gives her part of his soul as well. Could Mellisandre be a white walker? if she is, she would have to have something to disguise her and make her appear living and be able to be around fire. perhaps thats what the ruby around her neck does. Has anyone ever seen her with out it?

4. Why don't the other red priests know about melisandre? She doesn't seem to be the figure head for the religion. why does she think AA reborn is Stannis or Jon when the other red priests think it's Dany? She seems different than the other priests. Has anyone went back and compared her chants and prayers to the chants and prayers of the other red priests? The prayers always end with " the night is dark and full of terrors" but what about the rest of it? I have a feeling they arent the same prayers.

5.In her visions she see's Bran as evil. Perhaps the green seer magic bran is learning is the polar opposite of her own magic. Brans magic comes from the old gods the same magic that protects the wall. Perhaps she also views the wall and the magic that protects it as evil.

6. Everyone seems to think shes a hack sorceress because of the mistakes she's made interpreting the flames. Maybe she didn't misinterpret them at all and everything is going according to plan.

7. She really hasn't helped Stannis out with her counsel. If anything all she's done is help create chaos and instability throughout Westeros. The more the different kingdoms fight amongst themsleves the weaker they will be once the others invade.

idk just an idea i can't seem to get past. what do you guys think?

[krislandis]

Interesting thought. Particularly about the Horn. We know so little about her ultimate goal (unless you take her at face value, but we all know that in this series we can't really do that with anyone...). I just don't see what possible purpose letting the Others through could serve.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Yes, I think so but not directly. Thanks to a botching spell, perhaps ?

[Essan]

I don't trust Mel although I'm begining to see her more like an obsessed religious nutter who is totally blinded by the conviction that her interpretation of ancient prophecies is the right interpretation and everyone else is wrong, just you see! And I think this obsession to prove she is right will result in her making a terrible mistake ...... So yes, maybe she does do something to let the White Walkers through the Wall?

But I don't think it'll involve the Horn of Joramun. Which I believe is currently far from the wall with Samwell .....

[BaronVonMolotov]

You think Sam has the Horn of Jormun? interesting. then what was burned by Melisandre?

[The Chequered Raven]

Yes, I think so but not directly. Thanks to a botching spell, perhaps ?

Yes, that would be epic...

I imagine Mel, just before buried under the collapsing wall, in her last glimpse into the flames, the Great Other, asking: "Did you REALLY took me all the time for R'hollor? Hahaha..."

[rivergirl]

I'm hoping that if she ever suggests it, Stannis will write to her and say "Yeah.... no, let's not."

Aside from that, your point about her not really being on Stannis' side is a really interesting one. Thinking about it, she really hasn't helped much apart from with her Shadowbaby. Another thought: what was it she said about the brightest flame casting the darkest shadow? The Wall/Night's Watch, if it was Lightbringer, sure casts a dark shadow. And a big one.

[BaronVonMolotov]

yeah She doesn't seem to be on Stannis side at all. She tells him to go to black water and that her visions show stannis victorious, then his fleet is decimated and he has to retreat. she says she misinterpreted the flames but it's entirely possible she's lying and influencing Stannis into making bad decisions. Everytime she has sex with him she steals part of his soul to make the shadow babies. She's drained his soul to the point where she says she dare not take any more or it will kill him. And she decieved Stannis by making him believe Mance Rayder was burned when it was really rattleshirt. She tells him to take winterfell and he looses most of his army in the snow, and now may possibly be dead and defeated by Ramsay. If she's not his enemy she's a terrible ally.

[GestaltReplicant]

Night's King wasn't with an Other - he was with a "corpse queen", implying he was just with a regular old wight.

And Melisandre is apparently well-known - Aemon even knew of her, and he was the first person to come to the conclusion that Dany was AA.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Mel likes the Wall, it gives her power. Why would the few other read priests we've met talk about her? There must be thousands of red priests. Mel frequently misinterprets her visions, e sides I think Jon is AAR anyway. No, I don't believe this. I've been wrong before, but I definitely don't believe this.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Night's King wasn't with an Other - he was with a "corpse queen", implying he was just with a regular old wight.

And Melisandre is apparently well-known - Aemon even knew of her, and he was the first person to come to the conclusion that Dany was AA.

I think that she was an Other. Why would he become attracted to a walking body? Others seem to have some sort of beauty to them and how could he have children with a dead body?

[The Mother of The Others]

I think she for real wants to bolster the wall not break it.

But, since she suffers from misdirection and is a magical bomber, she might end up bombing the wall in spite of her wishes. If she gets outfoxed by the dark forces or manipulated into doing their will.

Her radar seems to simply register other strong sources of magic without color coding them as friend or foe. And since the other magickers are beyond the wall she assumes them to be evil because her cosmology doesn't allow for any other options.

The big question for her is similar to Stoneheart's defining question: will these old babes be able to learn new tricks? Will they be able to adapt to the news that Bloodraven isn't the Great Other and Jon isn't the Great Bastard?

It is an interesting possibility that Melisandre is only wearing the skin of a fire priest but is actually..... so much more. We don't have enough intel on what a "normal" fire priest should be able to do, so we can't say for sure that she's exceeding those expectations. The other fire priests we've seen are also different from each other, as she differs from them. So it could be that she's very much just one of the guys (and they all develop wildly different magical manifestations as they travel the world and compose their art). Or it could be that she's already shown herself to be way outside the legal limits of what's allowed by her church, praciticing spells linked to Undeath cults and marking herself as one of them. We just aren't in a position to say.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Melisandre is helping to fight against the Others. She just doesn't quite know the best way to go about it. She knows the wall has ancient powerful magics locked inside it that strengthen her powers. That or the dragons are. Who knows anyway...

Her intentions seem to be "look into a fire" and see what R'hollor would like me to do. She depends a little too much on prophecy.

She sees Snow a lot in her flames so she tries to help him so that he will trust her, I'm not so sure that's the best way to earn his trust.

but definitely not trying to bring down the wall. Misguided yes. Suicidal no.

[Jorg Ancrath]

I like the idea of the botched spell- but here's my take on it that I posted in a thread a week ago.

AA will be reborn through 'smoke and salt'. In SOS, Bran's last chapter has him go through a weirwood gate in one of the forts where Hodor doesn't duck enough and a drip of water hits his face that is 'salty as a tear'.

I believe Mel will burn Jon's body at Whitetree (the weirwood where Jon and Sam took their oaths) and that's where we'll see AA reborn. Smoke from the fire, salt from the tree- and it fits in her character too. One of her visions saw 'eyeless faces weeping blood' which sounds like a weirdwood to me. Also, she's been known to burn gods she feels are false- she burned the Seven on Dragonstone; burning the Whitetree seems like a logical thing for her to do, and plus, has potential to bring down the wall and give rise the Prince that was Promised.

Any one else see that bit about the salt/weirwood connection?

[Faint]

I think too much was made of the horn that Sam is carrying for it all to come to naught. In other words, I don't think the horn is a red herring; it's Chekhov's gun.

[BaronVonMolotov]

Night's King wasn't with an Other - he was with a "corpse queen", implying he was just with a regular old wight.

And Melisandre is apparently well-known - Aemon even knew of her, and he was the first person to come to the conclusion that Dany was AA.

well i think it was an other unless the night's king was into necrophilia. but Melisandre seems to have similar powers either way. I think i remember Aemon talking about melisandre with jon before he left with sam for Oldtown. I'll have to go re read that part. But if Melisandre is just a red priest why are her views of AA so different from the other priests?just seems lke somethings up with her

[BaronVonMolotov]

"These little wars are no more than a scuffle of children before what is to come. The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power ... a power fell and evil and strong beyond measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends ... Unless true men find the courage to fight it. Men whose hearts are fire.

-Melisandre

If she knew this why does she counsel Stannis to engage in petty wars with Lannisters and the Boltons? In turn Stannis looses the majority of his forces at Blackwater and then again on the road to Winterfell when he should be building forces at the wall preparing for the greater battle to come with the others. It just makes no sense. Seems like all the advice she gives him is bad, and on top of it we know shes leaching his soul. either she's completely incompetent or this is all part of some scheme of hers

[ViserionsFire]

The wiki describes the difference between R’hllor and “The Other”: Melisandre says, “R'hllor is the god of light, heat, and life; and its antithesis is the God whose name should not be spoken, the god of ice and death. They are locked in an eternal struggle over the fate of the world”. She also says, “They are opposites, white and black, good and evil, fire and ice. The Other is the god of Darkness, the Soul of Ice and his war with R’hllor is everywhere and everlasting”. Bloodraven tells Bran that “'Never fear the darkness, Bran.” The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. “The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.” Bloodraven infers that Bran use the darkness as an ally and merge with nature and apparently aid the forces of "good." The “Old Gods” were worshipped before the First Men and are integral to Westeros; R’hllor has always been associated with Essos. So, the Wall is at confluence of The Old Gods’ represented by the Wildlings (perhaps Val: see ) and R’llhor (Melisandre).

At the “Wall”, Mel can feel her power having more strength even though the magic that protects it is of the “Old Gods’. If these religions were actually polar opposites of each other, wouldn’t Mel’s strength in power diminish rather than strengthen. Rather than opposites, are The Old Gods and R’llhor complements of each other? Perhaps R’llhor was worshipped in Essos long ago, but as only a few could truly interpret the flames and be the servant of R’llhor, the Faith of Seven was established to fill a void, as magic is not part of the main doctrine of the Faith. Therefore, power could be taken from R’llhor’s true practitioners and isolated within a few powerful groups. When the Andals invaded Westeros six thousand years ago, they also brought with them the Faith of Seven. It again would have taken hold with the commoners, having mass appeal, as a practitioner wouldn’t have to be capable to participate. Perhaps, if the Faith of Seven had spread throughout Essos prior to the Andals invasion, the practice of R'llhor would be forgotten (like the Gnostic's after the Council of Nicea). If this pure speculation has any merit, then perhaps as practitioners of R'llhor reconnect with its roots, they have misinterpreted R'llhor's connection with The Old Gods.

[Rod123]

We get her POV and we get a view at her thoughts, she is for real. And since GRRM already said that Gods wont be present we know that the flames wont really say "lol i tricked you"